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if aging is your problem and you dont really care what you come back as might i suggest a trick i have employed. to allow myself to be reborn without help from others. first thing you do is cast contingency on yourself and use magic device to use a scroll of reincarnate. since reincarnate is a 4th level druid spell you need a 7th level caster making the check for umd a 27. also you must have a 14 wisdom to cast a 4th level druid spell from a scroll. set the contingency to be when you die. so when you die you are instantly reincarnated into a new body. new body new youth enjoy keep your mental stats get new physical ones.
1500 gold pieces for the contingency and 1700 gold for the scroll of reincarnate. but to a level 20 wizard afraid of dying 3200 gold is but a drop in the bucket. the only thing left is to decide if you die from your soul aging or your body aging. then again a wizard could take the 20th level wizard ability and become immortal.
The potion which is an artifact IIRC cost at least 50,000 gp, and it is very rare.
My decision to allow the wish spell to do the same thing or not allow would depend on how it would affect the game.
There's two separate things going into a wish for youth. The first is the mechanical ramifications of not suffering age penalties, especially if you can avoid suffering age penalties while still getting the benefits. A Nacreous Gray Sphere Ioun Stone is significantly cheaper than a wish spell and gives this benefit.
The second thing is the RP benefit of never dying of old age (or delaying it for a little while). It's an extremely rare campaign where this is ever an issue mechanically, so this is basically just an RP thing. (Unless you're playing some weird race with a very short lifespan or something.) There's relatively few ways to stop aging entirely that don't let you still expire when your time is up (Living Monolith works, as does the Eternal Youth alchemist discovery). Given that this is a fairly RP-ish thing, I'd be okay as a DM rolling it into a wish.
So in short, as a DM, I'd be okay with a character wishing - for themself or for a explicitly willing target, but not as a hostile wish - for pretty much any form of slowed or stopped or reversed aging. In practice, players are rarely willing to wish for something not directly on the Wish List for fear of the wish going awry, especially for in what in most cases is going to be a nonmechanical benefit.
Eternal Youth is a trope of many fantasy games. I would say yes, a Wish could make you younger and extend life - I mean, it's powerful magic! However, it won't grant you eternal youth, just extended youth.
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Like many others have said, wishing for youth is a very common fantasy trope, but because no spells exist that grant true youth to a character*, it falls squarely in wish's 'plot' effect, i.e.:
You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment, at the GM's discretion.)
So, here are some options for you:
- The spell goes off without a hitch; the character becomes a young adult again while retaining their previous knowledge and experience. If they had any aging bonuses, they keep them. If they had any aging penalties, they are removed. This is good for a "happy ending," but as other people have said, it can be a little unfair to have potentially huge bonuses to mental stats with no downsides.
- The spell causes the player to become a young adult again in body and mind. Basically, the magic makes them immature again. They lose their aging bonuses and aging penalties and are just basically reset to young adult stats. The character keeps their memories and abilities gained, but ultimately they regain a bit of the nativity of youth.
- If the character wished for youth, but not necessarily for their own youth, there are several things you can do to them. The first is to effectively kill them off and reincarnate them into a random body. They are young again, but their body isn't young again, its an entirely new body. This could be an effective way to counteract the aging bonuses if you want to reincarnate them into a body that takes Intelligence / Wisdom / Charisma penalties. The other thing you can do is make the character young in appearance but not in body. Their ability scores don't change, but to everyone in the world they look like a late adolescent. This is where you start getting into the "am I screwing over my player?" territory. However, if you're going to use the wish spell, they should be prepared for it.
- Another option is to play it off Dark Tower style, where the character themselves is effectively reset. Reduced to a Level 1 Young Adult, having to start their adventures all over again. This is an interesting thing you can do for a party who wants to keep playing their characters in a new mission / adventure path / etc. This isn't something you should drop on the players without talking to them in advanced about it, however.
- Moving back into screwing with the players territory, you can always have the wish for youth go completely awry and reduce the character to a young child / infant, adding a side quest to help the character restore themselves to adult status (or even their former age). This one can be taken in several ways; the character still has all of their abilities, they're just a child now (or if they're an infant, they're probably unable to use most of them). If you're feeling exceptionally mean or you need to justify a long-term absence, you can have the character revert to a Level 1 Commoner as well.
- If you want to go for the SUPER dark option, you can have the wish go off, but instead of making you younger, you effectively magic jar another person and take their body. Many stories have eternal youth magic where a vessel / offering needs to be made in order for the switch to happen, and this option works exceptionally well with devil-earned wishes.**
Hope this helps!
*The closest you can find is trifold aspect, which is more of like an idealized personification of aging.
**The most recent example of this I can think of is in Fable 2, where the Hero of Skill is revealed to have done this for centuries. Also, in regards to devils, the Contract Devil from Bestiary 3 would serve perfectly in this role.
For a wish spell, I'd rule it as going back one age category (middle aged to adulthood, old to middle aged, venerable to old); your "new age" is the minimum for that age category. You are in all aspects (penalties/bonuses) a character of your "new age," although you keep your current class and level; you "gain" extra years of life, since this "resets" the number of years before you reach your maximum age.
Note that specific items (sun orchid elixir) or discoveries (Eternal Youth or Immortality) may be "better" in specific areas, but a wish can't duplicate every spell, either. "A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposistion schools.
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools."
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If we had access to all spells how would we go about doing this. First you need to die. That seems to be the easy part. Then you need Reincarnate. Now you are a young version of a random humanoid. Then Polymorph Any Object to change you in to the right type of race. Maybe Alter Self to make it look like you?
Can the wish spell do all that?
Taking over someone else body... a few mages did this in Dragonlance (Raislin (sp?) had troubles handling the hormone level).
a 4th level spell can make you a adult (Reincarnate)
a 8th level spell can make your random body restored as what is was before (Polymorph any object)
There is no reason a wish spell cannot bring your body to whatever physical age you want it to be.
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a 4th level spell can make you a adult (Reincarnate)
a 8th level spell can make your random body restored as what is was before (Polymorph any object)There is no reason a wish spell cannot bring your body to whatever physical age you want it to be.
The reason would be that the spell description says it can imitate one spell effect. The spells needs to to a minimum of two. Three if you count killing him before reincarnation. Polymorph any object can make him look human but does not make hime look like himself.
If I were the wizard I would wish to be reincarnated as a human. I think that is within the bounds of wish. Then use my own spells or subsequent wishes to change my form to please myself.
There's a spell in the UM that makes your body younger again for the duration, while allowing the mental bonuses to stay.
Wishing for that spell to be instantaneous (rather than permanent) would be one option, I would think.
Should the Dm allow it? i dunno. Wish is limited to 5 castings in a row for a +5 inherent to your ability scores.
you are not only trying to get +3, but a +3 that stacks with all other bonuses.
It sounds so minor "I wish to be immortal" fine granted,you never die of old age.. our AP only lasts 2 years anyway so who cares?
Mechanically though you are trying to steal an extra +3 to your best stats and erase the penalties that would offset it.
Were I the DM I'd probably only allow it as "hey, since we're retiring anyway, I wish for X". since it'd have no game impact anyway, but would be a nice little 'going out with a flare' sort of thing.
Ageless living? sure, fine, whatever.
Getting +3's to your mentals with no penalties whatsoever for a few dimes outta pocket?
Probably not.
-S
There's a spell in the UM that makes your body younger again for the duration, while allowing the mental bonuses to stay.
Wishing for that spell to be instantaneous (rather than permanent) would be one option, I would think.
Should the Dm allow it? i dunno. Wish is limited to 5 castings in a row for a +5 inherent to your ability scores.
you are not only trying to get +3, but a +3 that stacks with all other bonuses.It sounds so minor "I wish to be immortal" fine granted,you never die of old age.. our AP only lasts 2 years anyway so who cares?
Mechanically though you are trying to steal an extra +3 to your best stats and erase the penalties that would offset it.Were I the DM I'd probably only allow it as "hey, since we're retiring anyway, I wish for X". since it'd have no game impact anyway, but would be a nice little 'going out with a flare' sort of thing.
Ageless living? sure, fine, whatever.
Getting +3's to your mentals with no penalties whatsoever for a few dimes outta pocket?Probably not.
-S
They could end up keeping part of the penalities if the wish isn't clear.
"Make me younger." *Turns into a fetus*
I don't disagree with that, but if I was the DM I'd just tell him no.
But, thats just me :)
-S
The problem is that there is a spell in UM that works exactly like the effect he describes.
Age resistance (lesser, normal, greater) lasts 24 hours, reverses the negative effects of aging (except for the looks, oddly enough).
Regardless though its still op.
(and an illconceived spell, imo.. same with threefold aspect which just gives them the bonuses as though they were older.. also with a very long duration)
-S
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So that's what, like 4 ways that dudes like Razmir could get around the whole dying of old age issue.(By the way, I realize that part of what makes Razmir interesting is his impending mortality, and that just bypassing it with a spell or two really makes him less of a dynamic character. Still though, the man has options).
And that's one of the problems that arises from the Pathfinder default assumption that magic is mostly fairly abundant and readily available. For a guy in Razmir's position, immortality should pretty much be a given.
Age Resistance doesn't actually make you younger; you just don't take the penalties accrued from aging. That's why your looks don't change, and you also didn't reset your biological clock. If you're a 70-year old human, you can run around and move like a younger man but you're still probably going to die within the next 30 years at latest.
Same with Trifold Aspect or any Polymorph effect. They warp or alter your body's appearances, but they don't actually make you younger. Your time is still very much limited.
If you want true youth (as in more time on this world) then you need to use Wish to go outside the boundaries of every other spell in the game.
An old man wanting eternal youth would need at least two wishes; 1 from going from old to young the other for agelessness... and maybe a 3rd wish to make it an EX ability instead of SP/SU. (and maybe make it somewhat like Highlander; Immortality = infertility)
I have no issue with immortality itself. its not a game changer at all.
You wanna live forever? fine. Wish granted. You wanna look younger too? Fine. who cares? A hat of disguise will do that far cheaper than a wish anyway.
You want the bonuses without the penalties?
A +3 stacking with everyting for one casting of wish? sorry buddy, not happening.
Folks are paying 50k for what.. a small handful of years regression?
at some point you have to step back and say "he's wishing for far more power than the wish should be able to provide". You are giving him a wish that grants him better than 3 other wishes combined. (the inherents) and to more than one ability score, as well.
I'd prolly just say no to the bonuses.
-S
I have absolutely no problem with carefully-phrased wishes for immortality. Admittedly, giving the age-related benefits might be excessive.
If my character were to make a wish like that - and he might if he ever gets the opportunity - he'd wish to never age and to retain the strength and vigour of his youth.
Yes, that is technically twistable by a GM, but why? Greater wishes are subject to GM discretion because they're abusable, but, as has been said, your character never dying of old age is not a benefit that is useful or tangible in most games. It's purely a roleplay issue.
If you're already old, I'd say it'd be one wish not to die of old age, another to be restored to the prime of youth.
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If you're already old, I'd say it'd be one wish not to die of old age, another to be restored to the prime of youth.
So you get killed by a falling grand piano, then get reincarnated :p
I don't know about any of you, but in my experience, the average person does not get any smarter or any more charismatic the older they get. I dare anyone to argue that any given grandma, member of Congress, etc who is not actually a scientist or doctor or whatnot is any smarter than the average young adult. And if they have Alzheimer's, well, yeah. To the extent that anyone seems sharper, more knowledgeable, or whatever as they get older, it's because age brings experience - and more skill ranks and feats. :P
So, frankly, I wouldn't give ANYONE the age bonuses to mental stats, immortality or no; you just keep your normal stats until you die.
I'm stunned that reincarnate can bring a creature back to life who has died of old age. That, coupled with the easy removal of "permanent level drain", I don't really see why most high level wizards wouldn't end up being bugbears.
If you go with RAW (considering all the other things a player can do) I'd let the person pick their age and take all appropriate modifiers while getting to keep all age bonus modifiers. Otherwise you're going to have to introduce various errata -- A decent option would be to allow wish to give youth, keep all bonuses, but still force age related death (no escaping the grim reaper).
Resurrecting this thread specifically because one of my players finally has enough money to buy a wish, and it's an interesting situation:
We have a very closely-knit party of 4, consisting of a drow, a gnome, a kitsune, and a human.
The kitsune simply wants everyone to have the lifespan of the drow so that post-AP, they can spend several hundred years together.
Since they're receiving no bonuses for age, it doesn't matter in the AP, and the wish is for a finite-but-enlongated lifespan, I as a GM have no problem with it.
But I'm interested in feedback: If one of your PCs were to use one wish to say, "I wish I had the standard lifespan of an elf", would you grant it? And would you then hose them by pointing out that at 24-26 years old, they're now a small child?
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Can a wish spell restore youth? If so, how much? I'm not talking about wishing for immortality here - just a slight reversal of aging. A year? 5 years? What seems reasonable? Is it a reasonable wish at all?
It is a DM call but I certainly think it is within the spell's power. Wish can create a body and can resurrect someone. If I were DM I would say two wishes. One to create a young body that replicates your character in his your and a second wish to permanently move your consciousness to that body. This basically copies the method for resurrecting someone whose body was obliterated.
The Wish spell can reproduce the effects of a lower level spell. Reincarnate is the obvious spell to make a character into a young adult again. So --
If the granter of the wish is intent of perverting the wish, they would reincarnate the character immediately and grant a random roll of the table to determine new race.
If the granter of the wish is not being perverse, then the new race can be pre-determined. A character who merely wishes to be young again would be reincarnated into a new body of the same race that looks almost exactly like his old one. A character who wishes for the standard lifespan of an elf would become an elf unless some other race of the same lifespan seems more suitable. Since Reincarnate is only a 4th level spell, there is a lot of wiggle room for improving on the basic spell.
Nobody'sHome, In this case were I the GM I'd require 3 wishes, one for each character, and move each character to their equivalent age category on the drows lifespan. If the characters are having trouble raising money for wishes, I'd consider letting them use some extended down time to raise money through item crafting, or they could look for lucrative side-quests.
For that matter, a side-quest to get a custom item that links their lifespans would be a fun quest. Like some ancient wedding rings that were used by a human and elf long ago, and they swore to live and die together.
Regarding some of the earlier discussion, if the wish would be used to negate an aging stat penalty I'd allow it, but it would take 1 casting of wish per stat penalty negated, basically taking multiple wishes to negate the aging bit by bit. I'd allow that to stack with normal wish stat granting.
Nobody'sHome, In this case were I the GM I'd require 3 wishes, one for each character, and move each character to their equivalent age category on the drows lifespan. If the characters are having trouble raising money for wishes, I'd consider letting them use some extended down time to raise money through item crafting, or they could look for lucrative side-quests.
For that matter, a side-quest to get a custom item that links their lifespans would be a fun quest. Like some ancient wedding rings that were used by a human and elf long ago, and they swore to live and die together.Regarding some of the earlier discussion, if the wish would be used to negate an aging stat penalty I'd allow it, but it would take 1 casting of wish per stat penalty negated, basically taking multiple wishes to negate the aging bit by bit. I'd allow that to stack with normal wish stat granting.
Thanks -- that's my take as well. 3 wishes -- one for each PC whose life needs to be 'extended'. And yes, they're going to be buying at least one additional wish for an NPC. Did I mention my players are not exactly hoarders?
I love how careful the player is being. He specifically avoided wording the wish as, "I wish we would all live as long as the drow," to avoid a TPK the first time the drow drops...
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I used to be amazed that it's so hard to extend natural lifespan. I mean, a LOT of powers are limited to people who haven't died of old age. Was there some deep game design point hidden here, or a prejudice against immortality without becoming undead?
But now I realize that it's probably to leave wiggle room to the GM. Seeking immortality is a classic trope, but if you can just point to a spell and say "and that's how it's done", it'd be anticlimactic. Why have a big quest if you can just cast a series of spells and that'll be that?
So I like this design. If as a GM you've got different plans, you can handwave it - a wish can be used to regain youth, or stop physical aging or all that. But if you do want to run a story about a BBEG questing for immortality, then you're not quite so bothered by a dozen class abilities that make it easy.
(Of course, it has gotten easier, what with Arcane Discoveries and all that.)
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But now I realize that it's probably to leave wiggle room to the GM. Seeking immortality is a classic trope, but if you can just point to a spell and say "and that's how it's done", it'd be anticlimactic. Why have a big quest if you can just cast a series of spells and that'll be that?
You can already achieve eternal youth as early as 9th level. Lesser Astral Projection places your body in stasis indefinitely while allowing you to create a new body on the prime material plane.
It is a far from perfect solution, but it works.
Don't forget that extending your lifespan beyond what is normal for your race also attracts the attention of Marut (Maruts? Maruti?).
Simple solution.
I wish the next time I die, a reincarnate spell would manifest on me, and I would come back as race <X>.
Simple wish, duplicates a moderate druid spell. The druid spell in question says you can use wish to change your race back again (or is it lesser wish). If you're nervous, supply the druid spell on a wand or scroll for the wish granter.