Kobolds in campaigns, what do you think of them and why?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


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I was looking at the new cover from advanced race, with all the Kobolds on it and thought of the many dms who have made intricate interesting encounters with Kobolds, for me they're just undersized lizard people, but I'd like to see what you think, and why they should or shouldn't be in the spotlight so much.

Grand Lodge

Ishpumalibu wrote:
for me they're just undersized lizard people,

You just answered it. Sometimes the little guy is the one you least expect to open a can o whoop on you.

They will always be the little dog headed menaces from that other game's original monster book to me, and I had players in the eighties who would not blink at ogres, trolls, or other baddies; but if I mentioned the words Kobold or Owlbear they would run for the hills.

Silver Crusade

I hate kobolds. Almost everywhere you would use kobolds you can use goblins or orcs instead.


I love them. I generally run them as labyrinth goblins with traps. They're sneaky mean little buggers, and great comic relief.


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I don't know if it's cannon or RAW, but this is the way I use kobolds in my games. You've got goblins and their cousins that like to torture and maim and be crazy and evil, but that's goblins. Oh sure, goblins put up a lot of traps, but they're usually not very well made, hidden, or sophisticated. Then there's kobolds.

If you stumble into a pit in the floor with some spikes and you're diseased, it's probably goblins. If trip a nearly invisible wire that releases 6 gears built into the wall that spin 3 angled blades simultaneously across the room in true vivisector fashion, the motion and speed of which are so precise that you don't even have time to scream before the carefully cultivated slimes begin devouring your corpse? THAT'S kobolds.

The thing that's remained consistent about kobolds over the years is that they are usually depicted as either on par with or superior to goblins in technology. Couple this with the fact that from 3.0 on they've had some strange connection to dragons and being sorcerers, and now you've got angry, xenophobic arcane dabblers with a penchant for elaborate traps who rarely leave their lairs except for food and slaves. Oh, and one last thing to remember about them: they're typically LAWFUL evil, meaning there's at least some respect for an ordered society and now your're not just dealing with savages like goblins.

One thing I've maintained since that other game's dog-days you mentioned: they're as good at mining as humans in my games. Since they like order and they're decent underground I usually have kobold lairs that are decently well constructed; masonry walls instead of caves, a few broad strokes of architecture like basic arches and minor details, plus things like proper venting and such. Don't get me wrong; they're still labyrinthine nightmares filled with traps and such, but generally they look presentable.

As for my own personal preference; I've always been a champion of the mean weenies. I don't think I ever had anything bigger than a 3/3 monster in my magic decks as a kid. I read the Hobbit like 12 times or something. So for me kobolds being the smallest, weakest of all the monstrous humanoids just makes them closer to my heart as a GM. They're the only monsters I ever WANT to win, despite all their plots being evil. Shine on you crazy diamonds, shine on...

The Exchange

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Interesting monster lore most of you probably already know, but just in case.

Kobolds and mining goes all the way back to their mythological days.

Miners had long used the name kobold ore (German for goblin ore) for some of the blue-pigment producing minerals; they were named because they were poor in known metals and gave poisonous arsenic-containing fumes upon smelting. In 1735, such ores were found to be reducible to a new metal (the first discovered since ancient times), and this was ultimately named for the kobold.


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They are awesome, and people who run them are awesome.


My second proudest moment as a dm.

Day 1: An army of orcs

The party: Chaarrrrrrrrrge!

Day 15: You see a few kobolds in the darkness.

The party: "oh hell, he's using KOBOLDS? Ruuuuuuun!"

I like the idea of turning expectations on their heads: that something small and weak can take out something big and strong by playing it smart.

I like playing something different. The 5 core races i think I've worn into the ground over the years.


I've got one player in my Kingmaker campaign who swore she would take Leadership at level seven, just so she could have a Kobold buddy. This is mostly due to the fact that they took every opportunity to be diplomatic with the little buggers, and developed a very good rapport with them. But I use them as the quintessential ambush predators. Only, they ambush using low level spells, crossbows, and some of the most devious traps known to humanity.

For reference, in my version of Kingmaker, there is a story told by the Sootscale tribe about the birth of their forebearer, the First Sootscale. He was the runt, deformed offspring of the great black dragon Ilthuliak, and was set upon by his sister Ammouet, but because of Sootscale's cunning, he survived and hid from his sister. But after three hundred years bolstering his numbers, the new Sootscale was set upon by Ammouet once again, but this time, the fight was on Sootscale's terms. It cost most of the tribe, but the scions of Sootscale brought down the black dragon, through cunning and relentless violence. The group ate that story right up when they heard it.


I get that they are more organized than most low cr challenges, but it seems as though most people have this idea that they are some kind of tactical savant race that design intricate traps, I know they're good at making traps, but I don't see them as being all that intuitive, I don't think their mental stats are anything very high are they?


Hehe

My party (that I DM for) just recently "rescued" an elderly expert kobold alchemist from his warren (the chieftain didn't want the old wizened elder second guessing him in front of the tribe, but also didn't want to be subjected to an angry alchemist's concoctions.)

They actually had to enter the warren (on a trial to wipe out the kobold problem) and after the first encounter, the characters were cursing about them.

The warren delving began with a bait and switch into a trap laden corridor that had the NPC's eidolon get toasted after about thirty feet (as a trap detector).

The rogue (ish) then decided he'd do better checking for traps than hiding behind the meat shields.

I was actually complemented on some of the more clever low CR traps that were used.

Scarab Sages

I love kobolds as a neutral NPC race and a PC race. Why?

Kobolds are the ultimate underdogs. When you see an Orc charge a Troll, you shrug and don't even give it a second thought. But when you see a Kobold charge a Troll? That scene is freaking heroic, because you know he's gone through hell and back just trying to make a difference in the world, and now he's gonna give it his all trying take down something 10x his size.


Ishpumalibu wrote:
I get that they are more organized than most low cr challenges, but it seems as though most people have this idea that they are some kind of tactical savant race that design intricate traps, I know they're good at making traps, but I don't see them as being all that intuitive, I don't think their mental stats are anything very high are they?

Well they don't get any penalties to their mental stats [ability modifiers are -4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con] and while an average one has a lower Wisdom then a human [Wis 9] they are as smart and charismatic as a normal human [Int and Cha both 10]. They also get a +2 to all Craft (Trapmaking), Perception, Profession (Miner), and Stealth skills and Craft (Trapmaking) and Stealth are always class skills for them. So one with any class levels , even in an NPC class, would benefit from putting ranks into Craft (Trapmaking) and Stealth which pretty much means that they are as a race sneaky and crafty little buggers with a penchant for well made traps. If you get one with rogue or expert levels with a focus on those skills it's a very likely a scenario like Mark Hoover's could arise.

Dark Archive

Ishpumalibu wrote:
I don't think their mental stats are anything very high are they?

With no bonuses or penalties to intelligence, Kobolds aren't any more or less able to go all Sun-Tzu-of-traps than all of the human GMs who are coming up with these plans in the real world. If clever and ruthless human GM can think of it, an equally clever and ruthless kobold trapmaker could think of it.

The craft (trapmaking) skill bonus is just gravy.

Orcs, who have Int penalties? Not so likely.


Set wrote:
Ishpumalibu wrote:
I don't think their mental stats are anything very high are they?

With no bonuses or penalties to intelligence, Kobolds aren't any more or less able to go all Sun-Tzu-of-traps than all of the human GMs who are coming up with these plans in the real world. If clever and ruthless human GM can think of it, an equally clever and ruthless kobold trapmaker could think of it.

The craft (trapmaking) skill bonus is just gravy.

Orcs, who have Int penalties? Not so likely.

I hear you on the human thing, but I don't necessarily think their traps would be so intricate either, but yeah, I guess I understand it a bit more now. Thanks.


Just to add a thought to the kobold abuse: They're small. Most of their enemies are bigger. Their homes and traps should be designed to take advantage of that.
Especially if they are, as suggested above, mining out their lairs. Everything's 4-5' high. Passages wide enough for 2 kobolds. Escape routes and secret passages even smaller. Image crawling hands and knees after the retreating kobolds.

In larger areas, arrow and blade traps are set to go over the heads of fighting kobolds and hit their larger enemies.


Cheapy wrote:
They are awesome, and people who run them are awesome.

I approve of this message.

And yeah, I let Goblins be the joke in my campaigns.
Kobolds might start out as one as well, but they won't stay that way once the dragons they serve get involved.

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:
Especially if they are, as suggested above, mining out their lairs. Everything's 4-5' high. Passages wide enough for 2 kobolds. Escape routes and secret passages even smaller. Image crawling hands and knees after the retreating kobolds.

A section of passageway that is partially flooded, with water three feet deep, and only a foot of clearance above that, could make a nice 'choke point.' The kobolds can just swim across it, or, for those that can't swim, be pulled across while lying flat on a small raft or clinging to a float-bladder of some sort, while humans would have to try and walk crouched, only to discover that, below the waterline, the floor of the passageway is studded with sharpened stone spikes, that act like unavoidable caltrops.

All along a central passageway, cracks in the walls could require a small-sized creature to squeeze through, and be impassible to medium sized creatures. The kobolds squeeze into and out of the passageway as needed, and can fire through them, using them as 'murder holes' to send missiles or alchemical fire or tanglefoot bags or whatever to harry people who can't follow them. Gnomes or halflings might be able to pursue fleeing kobolds through the cracks, only to find themselves separated from their medium-sized allies and surrounded by kobold snipers, huddled in adjacent passageways only accessible to small creatures able to squeeze into them, or tiny or smaller individuals.


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Ok, wait; the OP's thing was what makes KOBOLDS so awesome. Set and the Jeff, I have to politely decline what you are saying, or at least agree to disagree. Yes, they're small and inclined to have a small lair with choke points and such, but I've seen numerous GM's in other threads make the EXACT same comment for goblin lairs...'cause goblins are small too. So what sets KOBOLDS apart from GOBLINS?

Again, these next bits are all subjective, based on my own humble opinion and are not meant to be a knock on anyone out there. Ok, so...

For starters: style. Like I said above, they're miners and at least in PF they have a weird draconic thing going on. Goblins hate words, barely using pictures according to some PF fluff. They would have crude, half flooded choke points and invite diseased vermin into their lairs while hurling feces at their enemies like savage beasts. Kobolds on the other hand have a craft skill permanently etched into their DNA. Maybe it's only trapmaking but this means their whole culture is based around making something, and for that matter making it BETTER than most every other intelligent creature around. This means when they make a trap, even a pit trap, they do it with style.

For another thing: order. Don't underestimate it folks; their base alignment is LE, a component of which is LAWFUL. This means there is structure to their culture and a begrudging respect for chain of command, honor, all that sort of thing. Now of course they're also evil, so most of this goes right back down the mineshaft, but the ORDER of it doesn't. This is another thing that sets them apart from goblins; the discipline to plan, scheme and structure things, to make deals. If CE = demon who ultimately boil down to absolute base debauchery then the plans, machinations and sins of the kobolds should be more akin to the LE stereotype... the devils.

Those 2 points are why, for some reason, when I conceptualize a kobold lair its not the cramped, dirty stinking pit of a goblin warren, but rather a neat, orderly labyrinth of cut stone filled with ingenious and insidious traps. Oh sure, they have murder holes but they're not little squeezy cracks in the walls. Instead the kobold purposely builds the walls of its lair about 8' thick; a secret door conceals narrow passages THROUGH those walls which then taper slowly up to disperse load in butresses above but ALSO to provide air vents. These vent openings, then can be used as murder holes by the kobolds manning the INSIDES of the walls.

Think about it: halflings are small. Would THEY live in such cramped quarters? Gnomes are small as well; what would THEIR underground homes look like? Just because they're small and monstrous doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean they live like animals.

Now kobolds ARE physically weaker than most other races. I think this combined with they're trapmaking just means that a typical pastime for these creatures would be trapping slave labor. I don't know if this means dire beasts that they put on treadmills or keep securely leashed or if this means people but whatever the case, they get others to do their work for them. But just acquiring these slaves IS work, so I'd assume that they treat their slaves a bit better than goblins do (per the fluff about goblins and hobgoblins slaves in their midst don't last very long). Now I'm not saying the slaves would be living at the Ritz but they'd be treated as well as medieval farmers treated their workhorses.

So you've got good division of labor, skilled craftsmen, and the willingness to acquire and maintain slaves. I'd say even if you kept kobolds at primitive technology their proclivity toward a draconic heritage could motivate many of them to pursue magic in SOME form (this is a stretch on my part - they no longer have a "favored class - sorcerer). This means that you have all the ingredients for kobolds to POTENTIALLY become masters of their OWN domain, rather than making them interdependent on local vermin and monsters for common food gathering and defense.

So to sum up: goblins and kobolds are both small and their similarities end there. Goblins are smelly, crazy little madmen that let their hunger and bloodlust rule them. Kobolds are crafty, tricksy little schemers who methodically attempt to control every aspect of their surroundings to prove their own dominance and superiority.


Agreed. I didn't mean to give the impression of a kobold lair as a "cramped, dirty stinking pit". The difference, even above and beyond the cleanliness and orderly/chaotic habits of the two races is that goblins tend to find their lairs: either built by other races and abandoned or natural caves. Some of these may be small and scaled to goblins. Others will be larger. Whatever they can take or find unattended.
Kobolds build theirs. So they're built to kobold scale. Sure there'll be bigger rooms, like we have rooms with vaulted ceiling and the like. But not most of the passages and quarters. Why carve out 10' of stone when you're only ~3' tall?
It's not cramped, to them it's spacious.


@ Thejeff: sorry, I tend to get overprotective of my little yipping underlizards and I hear what you're saying. I'd offer a compromise: halls 10' wide but say about 6' high. That way you can justify when the chieftan gets carried around on his litter...

Dark Archive

Mark Hoover wrote:
Ok, wait; the OP's thing was what makes KOBOLDS so awesome. Set and the Jeff, I have to politely decline what you are saying, or at least agree to disagree. Yes, they're small and inclined to have a small lair with choke points and such, but I've seen numerous GM's in other threads make the EXACT same comment for goblin lairs...'cause goblins are small too. So what sets KOBOLDS apart from GOBLINS?

Goblins are neither racially inclined towards crafting traps (to the point of having a racial bonus towards that) *or* mining out their own lairs (to the point of having a racial bonus towards that, too).

Golarion goblins are described in the flavor text as being the sorts of absent-minded maniacs that would lose 20% of their population per day, in the presence of a lethal trap. The survivors would laugh and laugh, and randomly push yet more of each other into the trap. They'd also lose interest in mining out a tactically advantage series of passageways with murder holes and the like, about 2 seconds after the idea occured to one of them, let alone of getting to the point of actually doing anything.

As described in the flavor text, Goblins lack the survival instincts, reasoning abilities or long-term planning abilities of a field mouse, so I'd be surprised if goblins did anything like this.


For some reason, I've never encountered the super-crafty, trappy type of kobold as a player, and my encounters with them always seemed to have them as just another sort of annoying cannon-fodder monster.


Love Kobolds, much fun, I can't think of a race that could put mor flair to and class. Kobold ranger, Kobold Ninja, Kobold Magus, Kobold Oracle sounds great.


My last campaign featured kobolds through 5 levels; on top of interesting class/feat combos (ftr/rogues called dreadblades that focused on group tactics and intimidating) but also I gave them some mutants based around aspects of their patron black dragon: Horned Ones with coiling rams horns and levels in fighter for improved charges and such, Mireborn with water breathing and swimming skills and Scales of Pain; babau slime SLA with levels of monk (grapplers).

One 10 room dungeon took 2 gaming sessions and my players hated me halfway through. Between the Horned One slamming one into a ghoul pit, a Last Crusade-like tri-blade trap and the mini-boss being a dreadblade whip/sickle melee attacker flanked by mites mounted on giant centipedes I'm really impressed that they went back in to finish the adventure.I'm also glad to still be in one piece.


I <3 Kobolds, especially because these were the kobolds I was used to before I discovered Western RPGs...

Since http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/ is dead now, I feel this article needs to be posted...

Quote:

Tucker's kobolds

This month's editorial is about Tucker's kobolds. We get letters on occasion asking for advice on creating high-level AD&D game adventures, and Tucker's kobolds seem to fit the bill.

Many high-level characters have little to do because they're not challenged. They yawn at tarrasques and must be forcibly kept awake when a lich appears. The DMs involved don't know what to do, so they stop dealing with the problem and the characters go into Character Limbo. Getting to high level is hard, but doing anything once you get there is worse.

One of the key problems in adventure design lies in creating opponents who can challenge powerful characters. Singular monsters like tarrasques and liches are easy to gang up on; the party can concentrate its firepower on the target until the target falls down dead and wiggles its little feet in the air. Designing monsters more powerful than a tarrasque is self-defeating; if the group kills your super-monster, what will you do next—send in its mother? That didn't work on Beowulf, and it probably won't work here.

Worse yet, singular supermonsters rarely have to think. They just use their trusty, predictable claw/claw/bite. This shouldn't be the measure of a campaign. These games fall apart because there's no challenge to them, no mental stimulation - no danger.

In all the games that I've seen, the worst, most horrible, most awful beyond-comparison opponents ever seen were often weaker than the characters who fought them. They were simply well-armed and intelligent beings who were played by the DM to be utterly ruthless and clever. Tucker's kobolds were like that.

Tucker ran an incredibly dangerous dungeon in the days I was stationed at Ft. Bragg, N.C. This dungeon had corridors that changed all of your donkeys into huge flaming demons or dropped the whole party into acid baths, but the demons were wienies compared to the kobolds on Level One. These kobolds were just regular kobolds, with 1-4 hp and all that, but they were mean. When I say they were mean, I mean they were bad, Jim. They graduated magna cum laude from the Sauron Institute for the Criminally Vicious.

When I joined the gaming group, some of the PCs had already met Tucker's kobolds, and they were not eager to repeat the experience. The party leader went over the penciled map of the dungeon and tried to find ways to avoid the little critters, but it was not possible. The group resigned itself to making a run for it through Level One to get to the elevators, where we could go down to Level Ten and fight "okay" monsters like huge flaming demons.

It didn't work. The kobolds caught us about 60' into the dungeon and locked the door behind us and barred it. Then they set the corridor on fire, while we were still in it.

"NOOOOOO!!!" screamed the party leader. "It's THEM! Run!!!"

Thus encouraged, our party scrambled down a side passage, only to be ambushed by more kobolds firing with light crossbows through murder holes in the walls and ceilings. Kobolds with metal armor and shields flung Molotov cocktails at us from the other sides of huge piles of flaming debris, which other kobolds pushed ahead of their formation using long metal poles like broomsticks. There was no mistake about it. These kobolds were bad.

We turned to our group leader for advice.

"AAAAAAGH!!!" he cried, hands clasped over his face to shut out the tactical situation.

We abandoned most of our carried items and donkeys to speed our flight toward the elevators, but we were cut off by kobold snipers who could split-move and fire, ducking back behind stones and corners after launching steel-tipped bolts and arrows, javelins, hand axes, and more flaming oil bottles. We ran into an unexplored section of Level One, taking damage all the time. It was then we discovered that these kobolds had honeycombed the first level with small tunnels to speed their movements. Kobold commandos were everywhere. All of our hirelings died. Most of our henchmen followed. We were next.

I recall we had a 12th-level magic user with us, and we asked him to throw a spell or something. "Blast 'em!" we yelled as we ran. "Fireball 'em! Get those little @#+$%;*&!!"

"What, in these narrow corridors? " he yelled back. "You want I should burn us all up instead of them?"

Our panicked flight suddenly took us to a dead-end corridor, where a giant air shaft dropped straight down into unspeakable darkness, far past Level Ten. Here we hastily pounded spikes into the floors and walls, flung ropes over the ledge, and climbed straight down into that unspeakable darkness, because anything we met down there was sure to be better than those kobolds.

We escaped, met some huge flaming demons on Level Ten, and even managed to kill one after about an hour of combat and the lives of half the group. We felt pretty good, but the group leader could not be cheered up.

"We still have to go out the way we came in," he said as he gloomily prepared to divide up the treasure.

Tucker's kobolds were the worst things we could imagine. They ate all our donkeys and took our treasure and did everything they could to make us miserable, but they had style and brains and tenacity and courage. We respected them and loved them, sort of, because they were never boring.

If kobolds could do this to a group of PCs from 6th to 12th level, picture what a few orcs and some low level NPCs could do to a 12th-16th level group, or a gang of mid-level NPCs and monsters to groups of up to 20th level. Then give it a try. Sometimes, it's the little things used well that count.

Roger E. Moore

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Goblins are crazy.

Kobolds are cowards. It's why they fight with traps and crossbows and longspears. They are deathly terrified of being killed, it colours their entire society. A brave Kobold is a dead Kobold.

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