Okay, so we're playing around with this storyline surrounding the various descendants of this legendary orcish warlord. One of them is a recurring villian, a half-elven/half-orc summoner... another is this Paladin who is only now finding out about his heritage. He's a fervent follower of Sarenrae, but is more of a rough and tumble sort, preferring the wilds to the politics of the city and the hierarchy of the church. He's a charismatic battle-leader who at times succumbs to the rage of the moment and has little patience for foolishness or dithering.
I'm posting the build in part because I love him, in part to get a little advice or critique as I've never made a character that couldn't be improved or better fleshed out by the many perspectives offered on this board.
Human Paladin of Sarenrae (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes
Str 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, +4 at 13th, +2 at 17th)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (+1 at 12th, 16th and 20th)
Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Cornugon Smash
9th - Skill Focus: Survival
11th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Touch of Rage)
13th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Strength of the Beast)
15th - Dreadful Carnage
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Power of Giants)
19th - ???
Traits
Bully
Poverty Stricken
Skills
Intimidate 1 rank/level
Survival 1 rank/level
Knowledge: Religion 1 rank/odd level
Diplomacy 1 rank/even level
He wears Fullplate armor and carries both a Scimitar and Shield as well as a Falchion across his back to give him the versatility of tanking or laying the smackdown depending on what the circumstance calls for.
One of the things I'm having trouble with is what to lock into that 19th level feat slot. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter since it'll be a while before we get there - if ever - but I like to have a plan in place. At the moment I'm leaning towards Deadly Aim (to use Smite Evil as a ranged attack) but also considering Toughness, Desperate Battler and another Extra Lay on Hands. Really I'm open to anything. Keep in mind that by then he'll almost always be in 'giant form' during combat.
I seriously doubt that you´ll really need extra lay on hands, let alone two, so i suggest getting cleave. For later, with scimitar or falchion as weapons, maybe look into the critical lines.
unsanctioned knowledge
At 19th?
That's definitely something to consider. The character tends to rely on swift action spells for the most part, and makes heavy use of Shield of the Dawnflower later on.
Here's an idea of what his spells might be like at 20th level:
1st - Hero’s Defiance, Grace (x4)
2nd - Litany of Righteousness (x3), Communal Protection vs. Evil
3rd – Blessing of Fervor (x3), Sanctify Armor
4th – Litany of Vengeance, Shield of the Dawnflower (x3)
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I seriously doubt that you´ll really need extra lay on hands, let alone two, so i suggest getting cleave. For later, with scimitar or falchion as weapons, maybe look into the critical lines.
Two reasons for the Extra Lay on Hands:
1) When weilding a two-handed weapon which will likely happen most often, his armor class isn't all that great, our party is a little light on healing, and I've never had too many swift self-heals/condition enders.
2) With the Oath of Vengeance archetype, I can exchange two uses of Lay on Hands for 1 Smite Evil or 1 Powerful Justice making it an incredibly versatile feat, especially when taken so early on.
2) With the Oath of Vengeance archetype, those two extra Lay on Hands can become 1 Smite Evil or 1 Powerful Justice making it a very versatile feat to take, especially when taken so early on.
Nice.
The more I think about it, the more I like Unsanctioned Knowledge for that final feat... but I'm having a little trouble trying to nail down what spells might fill those slots.
At the moment I'm thinking:
1st - Expeditious Retreat or Feather Fall. The character doesn't have very good movement in combat (20'). Its a shame Paladins aren't spontaneous casters.
2nd - Tongues or Augury.
3rd - Good Hope or Haste. Not sure either would be better than Blessing of Fervor, but I really like the duration of Good Hope.
4th - Freedom of Movement or Legend Lore, the former because there's nothing worse than a Smiting Paladin who can't get to his target, the latter purely for RP purposes.
Radiant Charge could make a nice 19th level feat, in my opinion.
Depends on.what unsanctioned knowledge is used for.
If you want buffs
1- Wrath (stacks with Divine.Favor and grants improved crit) orVanish
2- Invisibility or Silence
3- Good Hope or Haste
4- Divine Power or FOM
Get Quicken SLA so you can use touch of rage on yourself.
Awesome.
Get Quicken SLA so you can use touch of rage on yourself.
Awesome.
Explain this please - I went rounds with someone about this on the board a couple months ago. Can player characters benefit from Monster feats? If the feat doesn't expressly say that you can't use the ability on yourself its assumed that you can, correct?
I was trying to talk my DM into letting me forego Mercies in return for making Touch of Rage part of the Lay on Hands. If I can make it its own swift action and cast it on myself, so much the better.
That would in my mind necessitate a shifting around of Feats to take full advantage of the ability - probably something like this:
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Touch of Rage)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Strength of the Beast)
13th - Quicken Spell-Like Ability
15th - Dreadful Carnage
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Power of Giants)
19th - ???
I'm pretty sure I'd have to wait until 13th level since Quicken SLA specifies that I'd need to be Caster level 10 or higher, which would mean 12th level since I effectively have a caster level of -2.
Unsanctioned knowledge requires an intelligence score of 13, unfortunately. You could make your headband int/cha, but that seems like a long ways to go for a few spells when your standard actions are generally better spent hitting things.
Grrrrr... missed that pre-req. Yeah, US is out.
Radiant Charge could make a nice 19th level feat, in my opinion.
I hadn't really considered that. On the surface it seems like a waste of resources, but at higher levels I'll be sporting 16-18 uses of Lay on Hands - it could make for a nice alpha bomb, or a tremendous desperation move.
I'd think you'd get more use out of something like Improved Critical than Radiant Charge. Given how huge your smite damage bonus will be, threatening with critical hits twice as often will probably come in handy more often than LOSING a smite attempt burning lay on hands to deal a few extra d6 of damage.
Between the perponderance of Keen Weapons and the ability to make a weapon Keen through use of the Divine Bond ability I thought that might be a waste of a feat. Since I periodically switch back and forth between a Falchion and a Scimitar that could also be tricky.
To be honest, if I can get a solid ruling on the use of Quicken SLA, I'll probably slot Stunning Assault there as my attack bonus will blossom.
You can take it but using Touch of Rage is a Standard Action.
And it only lasts for 1round, as in THE END OF THE CURRENT ROUND and you already used for standard to touch yourself.
Quicken SLA will let you Swift touch yourself for +8 (10 if you take gtr Eldritch Heritage) to attack And Damage, then full attack!!!
You can take it but using Touch of Rage is a Standard Action.
And it only lasts for 1round, as in THE END OF THE CURRENT ROUND and you already used for standard to touch yourself.Quicken SLA will let you Swift touch yourself for +8 (10 if you take gtr Eldritch Heritage) to attack And Damage, then full attack!!!
Yeah, I got the mechanics of how it does and would function... the debate right now is whether or not those Beastiary feats are accesible by the character.
I've got a thread discussing this very issue on the Rules board right now.
I really just think that radiant charge really fits your earlier description of "succumbs to the rage of the moment".Radiant Charge could make a nice 19th level feat, in my opinion.I hadn't really considered that. On the surface it seems like a waste of resources, but at higher levels I'll be sporting 16-18 uses of Lay on Hands - it could make for a nice alpha bomb, or a tremendous desperation move.
Yeah, the character has a whole backstory that ties into his traits and his eventual discovery and devotion to Sarenrae. Its clearly not a feat that would be used often, but when it was, it'd be devastatingly effective.
Imagine a level 20 Smiting Paladin (who does +40 damage on its first attack from Smite) adding 18d6 on top of that from Lay on Hands/Radiant as well as any other bonuses (Strength, Power Attack, weapon, etc.) charging a Dragon or Demon to open combat... or in one last desperate bid to save a TPK.
Having said that, you really are giving up a lot for a little. 18 uses of Lay on Hands at level 20 equates to 180d6 in swift self-healing + condition removal.
On a related note, Paladins really are bad@sses.
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If I were you, I would have put the +2 racial bonus in CHA rather than STR and allocate all of my ability increases there too.
STR affects your attack and damage.
CHA affects your saves, spellcasting, attack when Smiting (which will be often), number of Lay on Hands (which can be turn into Smites), Intimidate checks and Diplomacy checks.
So this is where we're at right now:
Human Paladin of Sarenrae (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes
Str 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, +2 at 11th, 15th and 17th)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (+1 at 12th, 16th and 20th)
Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus
3rd - Extra Lay on Hands
5th - Extra Lay on Hands
7th - Skill Focus: Survival
9th - Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Touch of Rage)
11th - Improved Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Strength of the Beast)
13th - Quicken Spell-Like Ability: Touch of Rage (if GM allowed - if not then Cornugon Smash)
15th - Dreadful Carnage
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage (Orcish Bloodline: Power of Giants)
19th - ???
Traits:
Bully (+1 Intimidate, Intimidate is a class skill)
Poverty Stricken (+1 Survival, Survival is a class skill)
Skills:
Intimidate 1 rank/level
Survival 1 rank/level
Knowledge: Religion 1 rank/odd level
Diplomacy 1 rank/even level
I'm still torn on that 19th level feat. I think Radiant Charge is a nice option, but I can't imagine I'd be using it very often - I'd more seriously consider it if you could choose how many Lay on Hands you could expend rather than having it be all or nothing. Still considering Deadly Aim, but I'd likely only be using it when I Smite and I'd have a pretty hefty damage bonus then already - plus my guy is anything but an archer stat-wise. Don't have the brains for Unsanctioned Knowledge.
I will say I do like the flavor of Corugan Smash (free Intimidate target taking Power Attack damage) and Dreadful Carnage (free Intimidate everyone who sees you take down a target). It fits nicely with the orcish heritage and the nature of the character to be more than a little ferocious in battle.
If I were you, I would have put the +2 racial bonus in CHA rather than STR and allocate all of my ability increases there too.
STR affects your attack and damage.
CHA affects your saves, spellcasting, attack when Smiting (which will be often), number of Lay on Hands (which can be turn into Smites), Intimidate checks and Diplomacy checks.
I constantly go back and forth on that to be honest, the saves being my primary motivation... I'm already getting plenty of Lay on Hands and have good skill checks. My spellcasting is almost universally with myself as the target and I only get bonus spells up to 4th level, so I wouldn't be getting a huge boost there, and the difference between +2 attack and +2/+3 damage all of the time over +2 attack only when Smiting is a negative.
Can player characters benefit from Monster feats?
If your GM says yes. I've seen ones who allow it and ones who don't.
So, I see you've got eldritch heritage and it fits for your character and is a good choice optimization-wise. But personally, I take issue with the idea that having orc ancestry gives you magical powers because that seems to be totally contradictory to what orcs are. If you're OK with using third party stuff, super genius games just released an awesome little book called the genius guide to feats of multi classing. Basically, it's a bunch of feats all inspired by eldritch heritage. They let you do similar things for all other classes. Since you said he sometimes succumbs to his rage, the feat berserker may be of interest to you. You get an ability to frenzy which does not give you stat bonuses but gives you access to rage powers. They could thematically fit really well, although they probably aren't. Optimal as eldritch heritage.
There is always Vital Strike. Or Word of Healing(spend two LoH and heal at range).
Toughness maybe?
For 19- Quicken SLA- on Gtr Eldritch Heritage.
There is always Vital Strike. Or Word of Healing(spend two LoH and heal at range).
Toughness maybe?
I thought about Tougness, but at that level its +19/+20 HP and if I do that I may as well just take another Lay on Hands (10d6 swift self-heal x2 or another Smite or another Justice). Word of Healing is something to consider though - as is Vital Strike, assuming that I'll already be using a Large size Falchion most of the time.
This isn't actually legal by RAW. You have to know what level the spell is that your spell like ability is casting in order to know the required level for quicken spell like ability and touch of rage doesn't have a level.Get Quicken SLA so you can use touch of rage on yourself.
Awesome.I think one of the devs chimed in that for SLA that don't list out the spell level a good guideline is to assume the same level spell accessible by the class in question at that level.
So touch of rage is a first level spell since an orc bloodline sorcerer gets it at level 1.
Also advice for the OP, I would skip the extra LoH feats (at least one of them) and pick up something else unless you're the only healer in the group.
I think Cornugon smash at third level would really help. First attack and shaken on the enemy is crazy good.
The technicality preventing me from taking Quicken SLA in the minds of many is that Touch of Rage doesn't actually mimic an existing spell. Sticking to RAW its a valid point, but I take issue with 1) the fact that monsters can't quicken an inherent power unless it exists in some human's spellbook and 2) players are allowed to create new spells on their own, so who's to say it doesn't exist?
As mentioned earlier, the extra Lay on Hands feats are intended not just to give me additional self-heals, but also to give me additional Smites since Oath of Vengeance allows one to be exchanged for the other. And FWIW, we are usually pretty light on healing in my group - nobody ever wants to play a cleric.
For 19- Quicken SLA- on Gtr Eldritch Heritage.
IF my GM allows me to take Quicken SLA for Touch of Rage, then this is a no-brainer as a follow-up to Power of Giants at 17th IMO, but if not I'm still going to need a plan B.
Except for the whole 'wanting some healing' with the smites.
The thing I like most about the Oath of Vengeance Paladin is the versatility it offers - if I need to be Smiting the heck out of foes then I can. If I'm taking heavy damage, I can absorb it. But most importantly, wherever I fall in between in a given encounter, I have the versatility to match it.
I never want to have to 'ration' my Smites. I want to be able to Smite one foe, kill him in a round or two and then turn around and Smite another without worrying if I'll need it the next encounter. The two best and most defining aspects of the class is Smite Evil and Lay on Hands, and OoV creates a devastating synergy between them.
That's one of the reasons I'm actually considering Radiant Charge, as horribly dinimishing as the returns are. If I think I'm in the last encounter of the day, no reason not to blow my load. I never want to go to bed with any Smites OR Lays left to use.
An then you get ambushed during the night by an evil dragon... Bwahaha!
An then you get ambushed during the night by an evil dragon... Bwahaha!
Ah yes - those damned midnight evil dragon ambushes... My GM would do it, too.
A friend and I used to play a pair of Paladins, just he, I and the GM. One of the toughest (and coolest) fights we ever had was against a crazed Druid and a pair of Dire Bears. Since we couldn't Smite we had to settle for just being Fighters with ridiculously high saves, the ability to cast spells, swift heal, negate conditions and supercharge our weapons.
It worked out okay.
Seems to be an official source that gives a pretty clear indications that SLA's do actually count as spells.
Yeah, it has a level like a spell and in all other ways resembles a spell... but here's the niggling phrase that those in the nay crowd are leaning on:
The creature can only select a spell-like ability duplicating a spell with a level less than or equal to 1/2 its caster level (round down) – 4. For a summary, see Table: Quickened Spell-Like Abilities.
A spell-like ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time greater than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
Now, for me that's just poor phrasing on the part of the designers who's intent seems to have been the level and casting time restrictions, not a requirement that the SLA actually HAS to mimic a spell already existant in the rulebooks... but that's my interpretation and those who want to stick to the letter of the law are using RAW as justification for saying no.
This is starting to go beyond the pale, there isn't a hard and fast answer to the question other than ask your dm.
I personally agree with your interpretation of the rules and think it should work, infact it was me who first suggested it in your first thread many weeks ago. However i wouldn't let you have the feat in my home game as i feel it would be overpowering.
At the end of the day this is all about interpretation rather than raw and on a forum such as this the only solid and entirely correct answer is ask your gm. The solid and correct answer when you phrased your question as "can i do this and be accepted at any table?" is no.
Stunning Assault? Take a -5 to hit, and force DC 10 + BAB Fortitude saves or the target you hit is stunned for 1 round.
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Human Paladin of Sarenrae (Oathsworn - Oath of Vengeance)
Attributes
Str 16 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, +4 at 13th, +2 at 17th)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16 (+1 at 12th, 16th and 20th)Feats
1st - Power Attack
1st - Furious Focus....
20pt buy? IF so, suggestion:
STR+16
DEX:12
CON:14
INT:14
WIS:07
CHA:15 (all bumps)
You have the same attack-bonus initially (and a brief period of lower will-saves, but you're a paladin), and 5 skills/level instead of 3. You qualify out-of-box for Combat Expertise.
Fighting style: sword-n-board (scimitar & shield) with massive AC. Role: immovable object blocking the corridor.
Yes; everybody loves Power Attack -- is it a fabulous feat at 1st level? No (and particularly not for paladins, cavaliers and other sorts who get automatic class bonuses to damage).
Consider: Shield Focus and Weapon Focus -- get them out of the way early, and enjoy much better attacks and AC versus the two-hand Power Attack build over the entire life of the character (i.e., at BAB4 you'd be +3 attack and AC+4 w/+1 heavy shield relative to a 2hPA falchion build).
How are you getting +2 STR at 11, 15, and 17
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Yes; everybody loves Power Attack -- is it a fabulous feat at 1st level?Yes! Power Attack at level 1 will only make you miss when you would have hit on 5% of your rolls, and it seriously ups your damage and makes 1-hit kills on the kinds of critters you'll be seeing at level 1 much more likely.
I'd wager that about 99% of the PCs who Power Attack at 1st are doing so with two-handed weapons. So, let's pose the numbers again: is it a good idea to be -1 to hit while granting the opponent +2 to rebound (due to your lack of a shield) at 1st level in order to gain three points of damage if you hit?
I see low-level PFS PCs face-plant themselves all the time due to imprudently crashing their own AC when they're little able to afford the consequences of a few d20 rolls going the NPCs' way (crit confirms in particular).
The value of killing an opponent before he has a chance to do anything cannot be overstated.
That value is directly proportional to the urgency of your desire not to have him beating on your self-nerfed AC.
A true tank will have the appearance and durability of a fire-plug, and does not suffer such a sense of urgency.
If you kill the guy in a single shot, it probably doesn't even matter what your armor class is.
It certainly will if you don't.
IMO Power Attack is a fabulous feat for guys with Spring Attack or Ride by Attack; but much less so for PCs who will be granting the BBEMs full-attacks.
Its best utility is as a clutch feat for smashing DR.