Druid's "Where is your God now?!" attack

[Kitsune Kune]

Okay, I know the title seems strange to show up in a rules question thread, but bear with me here, it'll all make sense soon.

First off, the set-up:

Druid Wild-Shapes into the Megafauna, Arsinoitherium from bestiary 2. (entirely legal rather early on in the beast-shape chain actually.)
This creature allready has an attack off the "damage by size" scale. 4D8... more than natural attacks of collosal creatures... but it's only one, so we can live with this (more or less).

Next piece of the set-up, the level 4 Druid spell, Strong Jaw. Here's a copy-paste of the descriptive part I'm about to question. (Bolding mine) "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead."

And now we get to the question at hand. Clearly, the actual size of the Arsinoitherium is less than Gargantuan or Colossal, however it's one and only attack deals damage in excess of the Colossal so, my interpretation is to treat the Arisnoitherium under those rulles, and deal double of 4D8 damage . (Which, usually when you're doubling damage dice like this, I believe you get to roll twice as many dice? Or do you simply roll the 4D8 and then double that total? Either way, pretty harsh as it stands...)

If I'm wrong, please, tell me now, otherwise this is about to get even more rediculous.

Vital Strike.... You all know what it does by now... combining that, with this creature, with this spell.... Ouch.... Doubly so if my first interpretation of this is true. Cus that would mean for your one attack per turn, at 8th level, you get to roll a total of 16D8 + Strength without even getting a critical hit.

If my second interpretation of the doubling the damage is true, then I must call into question whether or not the dice provided by Vital Strike also gets its final rolled total doubled in this case, (which I would assume would be the original intention of Vital Strike in such a situation... Though this situation is most defiantely out-side of the original intention/balance of these class-features/spells) not that I could honestly complain if the double damage doesn't apply to vital strike.

So, in short, my question is this.... Did I read all this correctly and the Arsinoitherium get's to double that whopping 4D8 attack? And if so, how, exactly, would it, and Vital Strike, get doubled.... oppinions and/or points towards FAQs referencing this are both welcome.

EDIT: went back and fixed the minimum level for Vital Strike, so we don't keep getting responses about that mistake on my end.

[concerro]

The creature does 4d8 as you said. To find the next size you look at the improved natural attack progression which is-->4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

The next 2 increases would take you to 8d8. In the end you still end up with 16d8 with vital strike though.

Nice find by the way.

[Turin the Mad]

nice!

[Parka]

Part of the damage might be from the Powerful Charge ability. As an animal companion, its base Gore damage appears to be 2d8 with "Powerful Charge" listed for another 2d8. In its monster entry, the 4d8 damage has the description of "Powerful Charge," which seems to indicate that the extra damage has been factored in.

Most likely, it's description of having two horns led them to give it a pair of 1d8 horns (normal gore damage for a Large creature, on the Natural Attacks table) and simply add them together for its normal damage. Still good for Vital Strike and Strong Jaw, just not quite that bad.

[Archaeik]

Pretty sure Druids can't take Vital Strike until level 8 (BAB +6)

Otherwise, yes, should work fine.

[Kitsune Kune]

Parka wrote:

Part of the damage might be from the Powerful Charge ability. As an animal companion, its base Gore damage appears to be 2d8 with "Powerful Charge" listed for another 2d8. In its monster entry, the 4d8 damage has the description of "Powerful Charge," which seems to indicate that the extra damage has been factored in.

Actually, check it again. normal attack in its offensive is 4D8+12. Powerful Charge is 4D8+24. As for comparing against an animal companion, it has allready been FAQ'd elsewhere that Animal Companions do not progress ability-wise the same as their monster blocks. (In many ways they actually progress better, but often attacks are slightly weaker. This was something I allready looked into just in case.)

@Archaiek Ah, yes, forgot the BAB req for Vital Strike, based my level off the wild-shape+spell needs. (so, 8D8 at lvl 7, 16D8 at lvl 8... that's a damage jump that'll make any GM's eye twitch.)

@Concerro's first post. Thank you for making it simple to find. I was basing the Natural Attack progression from the stat blocks I most commonly find. (Which usually only shows the common stats,where a Colossal creature usually does 4D6 or less.)

[concerro]

The monster stat says:
gore +14 (4d8+13) which means 4d8 is the base damage.

Special Attacks powerful charge (4d8+24),
Powerful charge allows for more damage on the backend.
The trample does 2d8, but that is a special attack, not the base attack.

[Count Vasquez]

A druid Level 7 can not have Vital Strike as it needs BAB +6 as Prerequisite...

By the way, Beast Shape does give the druid a STR Bonus ands some such, it does not transform him in the real animal (Special Attacks, Damage etc. he does not get).

Nice try...

:-)

[Stubs McKenzie]

beast shape gives all of the creatures normal attacks associated with that animal... it does not impart a number of things, but it's natural attacks ARE one of the things you do get.

EDIT: look at the polymorph subschool rules, it spells it out there.

[concerro]

The druid gets some special attacks depending on level. The OP never called for the animal's regular damage to include its actual strength, but he does get the base damage of the form.
Yeah he was one level off for vital strike, but he is still not going bad for one attack at that level.

[Kitsune Kune]

ninja'd,
twice

[Parka]

concerro wrote:

The monster stat says:

gore +14 (4d8+13) which means 4d8 is the base damage.

Special Attacks powerful charge (4d8+24),
Powerful charge allows for more damage on the backend.
The trample does 2d8, but that is a special attack, not the base attack.

I did not see the base damage was still 4d8 on the regular melee attack. It is odd, though. Other monsters I see with Powerful Charge double the damage dice and add extra damage to the base attack (Rhinos, for example). This critter only adds 11 damage (which is a bizarre number) to the damage- which given its description and size category, looks like it should be 2d8. This would even put it in range of CR 7 damage expectations according to the bestiary... add in the fact that the companion has 2d8 normal damage, with 2d8 powerful charge, and I wonder if this is not simply an error.

As it stands, though, it is legal.

[Glutton]

This is where the DM falls back on the "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." clause and doffs a top hat and a monocle and laughs manically.

[concerro]

A knowledge nature check handles that unless the GM rules that familiar means "has seen in person".

The 4d8+13 does put it in line with other CR 7 creatures for damage so it does appear to be accurate.

[Count Vasquez]

Wild Shape (Su): ... This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.

See: Druid.

Beast Shape II: Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus.

Polymorph: ... While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature...

... In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses...

I do not read that the druid gets the base-damage of the new Form (4d8), but I would possibly allow it, unless he sucks completely in the STR department (Megafauna, Arsinoitherium has 28 STR). So if the druid STR 10 plus 4 to amazing 14 he should get heavy Penalties...

But unless the druid is not from the Lost World he wouldn't Know something like this to exist.

[concerro]

Quote:

Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature......

In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

The natural attack of the creature includes the base damage. Otherwise you are just getting a similar attack, but not that monster's attack.

The creature does not have to be from the Lost World. It is just a large animal found in "Environment: temperate plains"

Unlike 3.5 you don't actually get the subtype and every special ability 3.5 gave you.

[Stubs McKenzie]

If a druid/ monk that was normally hitting for 4d8 due to size and spell effects changed into a creature with 8 natural attacks that normally did d4 each, would he get 8 attacks at 4d8 in your interpretation ?

[concerro]

If he uses the monster's natural attack he gets that monster's base damage which in this case is 1d4+whatever spell effects are in place. He does not get to use the monster's natural attacks and his unarmed strike base damage to replace that base damage.

[Stubs McKenzie]

concerro wrote:

If he uses the monster's natural attack he gets that monster's base damage which in this case is 1d4+whatever spell effects are in place. He does not get to use the monster's natural attacks and his unarmed strike base damage to replace that base damage.

My post was a response to the one above yours... a theoretical question posed because of CV's interpretation of the rules, not my understanding of RAW :)

[concerro]

That was a good question because I do think it is possible for a druid to push out even higher numbers per attack with the correct spell and feat combinations. I think someone got up to 6d6 or better once.

[Ravingdork]

You can't even do this at level 8. You may have the BAB at that time, but you don't have the feat. A straight druid will have to wait till level 9.

[Lune]

Use enlarge and improved natural attack to up the damage a couple more size categories.

[Anguish]

Lune wrote:

Use enlarge and improved natural attack to up the damage a couple more size categories.

The first rule of "don't talk about tonight's encounter with a xorn elder monk with INA, VS, and IVS is..."

[hogarth]

This type of thing has been noted before (although sometimes with the hippopotamus behemoth).

Damage dice...

Druid math

Note that the second link adds to the pain by using the barbarian feat Furious Finish (max damage, baby!).

[Mucronis]

throw in aspect of the wolf spell (a lvl 5 druid spell, should be in your list at char lvl 9 i think)

Does the wild shape make you an Animal, for the purpose of what kind of spells affect you ? if it would, skip enlarge, and get a wand / scroll or someone else to cast Animal growth on you (+8 str i belive, and up one size and some con bonus aswell i think, not sure if those bonuses to stats stack with the wild shape ability though.)

[concerro]

No it does not make you in to an animal. Your creature type never changes.

[Azten]

No matter what the damage for the attack is, an Arsinoitherium is still a Large creature and should be treated as such for the purposes of Strong Jaw.

[Mabven the OP healer]

Ravingdork wrote:

You can't even do this at level 8. You may have the BAB at that time, but you don't have the feat. A straight druid will have to wait till level 9.

I believe it is legal for a player to choose to wait to take a feat until he meets the prerequisites. Thus, the druid could take no feat at level 7, and then take vital strike at level 8.

[Shar Tahl]

Mabven the OP healer wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

You can't even do this at level 8. You may have the BAB at that time, but you don't have the feat. A straight druid will have to wait till level 9.

I believe it is legal for a player to choose to wait to take a feat until he meets the prerequisites. Thus, the druid could take no feat at level 7, and then take vital strike at level 8.

You cannot "Save" feats. Each feat is gained at a specific level. The level 7 feat for a druid has a +5 BAB tied to it. Waiting till 8 and "forgetting" to take a feat at 7 does not change this.

[Grick]

Mabven the OP healer wrote:

I believe it is legal for a player to choose to wait to take a feat until he meets the prerequisites.

It was a thread on ability score prerequisites, but somewhat relevant (also the only Dev posts I could find on banking feats)

Here SKR says he thinks you should be able to take any feat, even if you don't qualify for it.

A few posts later SKR clarifies that "ideally" that's how it should work, but the rules currently say you actually need to qualify for the feat in some way before you can select it.

Since there's effectively no difference between taking a feat you don't qualify for and just not benefiting from it until you do, and 'banking' the feat slot until you qualify for the feat you want, I think it can be taken as RAI that you can't bank a feat.

[Kitsune Kune]

It IS still possible for the Druid to gain Vital Strike at lvl 8. At that level, he takes a single level of Fighter, problem solved. Especially since a Druid going the wild-shaping route has probably already focused his stats for melee instead of casting, so giving up a single caster-level to gain an additional 8D8 on his primary form of attack, it's something I know I would do.

Truthfully, for a melee wild-shaper, I would probably forgoe gaining any more Druid levels after it reaches 12 levels in Druid (for max versatility in wild-shape) and simply go Fighter from then on. 6th level spells are nothing to scoff at, you're getting all the wildshape, and you're getting the BAB plus feats to round-out your strengths. Especially with taking the Fighter's Weapon Training in Natural Attacks.