My group plans to start Pathfinder - Kingmaker in the next couple of weeks. We have a fighter-tank, cleric, me, and another undecided player. I've taken the wizard-controller slot, because of my playing preferences: having more options than weapons and enjoying the clever use of spells. Therefore, my elven wizard-conjuror is ready to go.
Now, I'm having second thoughts. I found Treantmonk's guide of the Wild Mystic very interesting. However, I have two questions in my mind right now:
1. How do the non-Core druid options compare to the Core ones in TM's guide? Specifically, the wolf shamans with access to Travel and Liberation domains and standard action summoning seem pretty potent.
2. How do I mentally survive until 5th-level playing a character that is seriously behind the power curve of my companions and encounters? My wizards tend to be junior bowmasters until the quantity and quality of their spells arrive.
Constructive advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
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A Golarion-set NG or LN human Druid can choose Erastil as their patron and gain access to longbow proficiency for free, which is a nice 'gimme,' particularly if you are already prone to playing junior bowman with your spellcasters. I tend to go this route, just because having a sling as your ranged weapon kinda blows (and, as a druid, you probably won't have a lot of decent damaging spell options at first). Since your party already has a cleric, you won't have to burn all your low-level slots of cure light wounds, and might get to summon some critters or toss out some entangles or even mix it up with a shillelagh. (Anytime I play a druid, nobody plays a cleric, and we end up brutally beaten down because druids can't keep up with a four or five man party's healing needs, and, bonus, I never get to actually play a druid, just a third-rate healbot.)
A CN (or NE) Lamashtan Druid can summon fiendish template animals from the summon monster chart using summon nature's ally, and while the resistances and eventual DR could be neat, you'll probably never have any use for the smite good.
Druids of Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Norgorber, Urgathoa and Hanspur, per Gods & Magic, have some bonus spells or options, but none as sexy as Erastil or Lamashtu's options, IMO.
A Golarion-set NG or LN human Druid can choose Erastil as their patron and gain access to longbow proficiency for free, which is a nice 'gimme,' particularly if you are already prone to playing junior bowman with your spellcasters. I tend to go this route, just because having a sling as your ranged weapon kinda blows (and, as a druid, you probably won't have a lot of decent damaging spell options at first).
A CN (or NE) Lamashtan Druid can summon fiendish template animals from the summon monster chart using summon nature's ally, and while the resistances and eventual DR could be neat, you'll probably never have any use for the smite good.
Druids of Calistria, Gorum, Gozreh, Norgorber, Urgathoa and Hanspur, per Gods & Magic, have some bonus spells or options, but none as sexy as Erastil or Lamashtu's options, IMO.
Additionally, not to spoil too much, but Kingmaker has a number of references to Erastil, so he makes a great choice for a religion in this AP.
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Druids do not get proficiency in there patrons weapon. Druids only get one domain not two. The summoning is limited to one type of animal. They can be augmented some what, but it limits the effective range of your summons greatly. With the druid spell list plan on it taking you two more levels compared to a wizard to come in to your own if your going casting.
Druids can still do allot. They are still divine casters and limited by there spell list. (IMO) That is why they function better as combat characters that can self buff, and heal.
Mehir savant is a great archetype. The shamans are not so much.
As to surviving until 5, I'd recommend not min / maxing as much. Going half-orc (not a bad choice, but not as good as dwarf, obviously) for falchion and having a 14 strength, along with your medium bab, will give you passable melee ability.
Agree on Menhir Savant and the shamans. I don't think he needs weapon proficiencies, though. Druid in PF gets scythe proficiency for 2H, and retains his scimitar proficiency from 3.5 if you want to sword and board, so (melee) weapons are pretty decent.
If you wanted to keep the animal companion but can suffer through without it for a few levels, you could get the Feather (Animal) domain. You'd regain the companion at level 4 w/ a -3 level modifier. Take Boon Companion at 5th level (IMO it isn't that painful to put off natural spell till 7th; you could always reverse this order if you disagree). In return for some initial pain and a feat, you end up with the same companion and now also have +1/2 level on perception checks and a bunch of extra spell slots per day.
If you want to really go into the Wild Mystic role, you could get the Ash and Smoke subdomains for Fire since there's no overlap in what they replace and gain some nice blast and battlefield control abilities. You should probably use a sling the first few levels as your main weapon unless your strength is negative. Look to spells that you can spread the effect out over multiple rounds so you have more stuff to do. Like Flaming Sphere. When you get it at level 3, it can be used for 3 rounds, that should last the bulk of the combat. Use instant effects like most direct damage spells sparingly, go for more lasting spell effects like entangle.
If you are going to go with a bow, you will either be seriously underpowered firing a couple arrows per round at most, with a poor attack roll, or else you need to commit to archery, which will make you a serious combat threat with a bow, but will reduce your wildshaping, simmoning or spellcasting options.
I went the full bow feat tree route and have not regretted it. Using a bow my druid can ride her tiger and full attack as she moves, or she can send her tiger into melee and fire her bow from a stationary position. I like the ability to deal consistent damage with the bow, and fire off a spell from time to time to spice things up.
But, a full wild-shape optimized druid would probably do more damage, and a full summoning or spellcasting druid would probably have more spotliight time.
You can get bow from a racial proficiency or I think you can use the "heirloom weapom" trait if your GM allows it.
There are a lot of druid spells that kick ass in Kingmaker, Entangle and fairy fire if your team is archer heavy and some pretty good buffs.
If you go Half Elf with the feather subdomain you can start with a freakish perception bonus, something I doubt you would regret.
I should also point out that there really is no such thing as a dump stat in Kingmaker, it pays to be a bit general instead of having a super stat and some charisma and social skills go a long way.
True optimizers might cringe at this suggestion, but if you're worried about not having options at low levels, pick a domain with some sort of first-level blast power. It will lose effectiveness as you gain levels, but it'll give you something to do until you've got more spells per day than you know what to do with. The Weather domain might be worth considering; while the Storm Burst power does non-lethal damage, the target also takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls for 1 round, with no save. This particular aspect of it might make the power more useful in later levels compared to the 1d6 + 1/2 level blasts that other domains offer. If you're allowed to take a subdomain, the Storm subdomain power has a lot of defensive and battlefield control potential, too.
Honestly the Spell produce flame really replaces blast powers.
Honestly the Spell produce flame really replaces blast powers.
In my experience, for druids with a high dex, at very low levels, perhaps. But for druids like that, if you can get bow proficiency, arrows will rapidly outpace produce flame for damage without using up a spell slot, and by level four, produce flame is generally a poor tactical choice regardless of druid type.
First, thank you all for your advice.
Druids do not get proficiency in there patrons weapon.
I'm getting conflicting information concerning bow use from Erastil. People are pointing me to Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red, but I don't have it to confirm. Can someone please quote chapter and verse that druids can get longbow proficiency worshiping Erastil?
The summoning is limited to one type of animal.
Also, where do you read that shaman's are limited to one type? I've reread it several times, and it reads to me that they get bonuses for summoning a specific type and are not penalized summoning other things.
Mehir savant is a great archetype. The shamans are not so much.
Can you explain this? I don't understand it. The 13th level power is good, but how does that compete with Travel domain? Plus, I've played a character with standard action summonings (Summoner in Living Arcanis), and they are pretty over-powering.
thanks
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Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Druids are proficient with the following weapons: club, dagger, dart, quarterstaff, scimitar, scythe, sickle, shortspear, sling, and spear. They are also proficient with all natural attacks (claw, bite, and so forth) of any form they assume with wild shape (see below).
No mention of favored deity weapon.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Clerics are proficient with all simple weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields). Clerics are also proficient with the favored weapon of their deity.
says they are proficient in favored weapon of deity.
You are correct in that you are not limited to wolfs. How ever if your not summoning wolfs your losing some of the power of the ability you have. So summoning none wolfs is something you can do. It is not something you get a bonus for. That is why it's effective level is limited. Due to the fact your limited in how effective the ability to summon your specialized animal is. This is why if your going for animal shaman I recommend bear. There is a much broader range of type you can summon.
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In Pathfinder #32 is the 4 page lay out for Erastil.
In this it says. "His weapon is the longbow (his clerics and druids are proficient with both the longbow and shortbow). His holy symbol is a bow made of elk antlers with a arrow nocked."
This is not a core and you must have DM approvel to use it. As this is a optional rule.
An elf Druid would have proficiency with bows, also you could use the heirloom weapon trait to grant it.
@Calagnar - I was told that the druid-longbow-Erastil rule is in Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red. Obviously not in SRD or Core rules.
That is why it's effective level is limited. Due to the fact your limited in how effective the ability to summon your specialized animal is. This is why if your going for animal shaman I recommend bear. There is a much broader range of type you can summon.
I don't know what you mean by 'effective level is limited.' Please explain. Plus, bear shamans only get the bonus with bears. Wolf shamans get the bonus with canines, so dogs and wolves of which there are many. Lion shamans get felines, which covers leopards and tigers which are very respectable. So why would you say bear shamans have 'a much broader range of type you can summon?'
An elf Druid would have proficiency with bows, also you could use the heirloom weapon trait to grant it.
Yes, but the elf is not terribly optimal for the druid. And heirloom weapon trait burns a trait. The character may actually worship Erastil anyway in Kingmaker, so why not confirm it?
thanks
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I have a lion shaman druid. She summons all sorts of animals just fine. Its just that she really shines when summoning cats.
You can apply animal templates (such as "young") to your shaman type to expand your summoning. My druid summons young tigers to fill out a summon level that lacks cats on the base list. Works fine.
On the bow proficiency, just talk to your GM about it. I would be surprised if you were not allowed to take the deity proficiency or the trait proficiency. I wouldn't have a problem as a GM allowing a druid to have bow proficiency. Most people consider bow feats for a druid to be sub-optimal at best and a trap at worst, so it's not like you will be breaking the game.
An elf Druid would have proficiency with bows, also you could use the heirloom weapon trait to grant it.Yes, but the elf is not terribly optimal for the druid. And heirloom weapon trait burns a trait. The character may actually worship Erastil anyway in Kingmaker, so why not confirm it?
thanks
Elf is plenty optimal for a Kingmaker druid, despite the lack of a wisdom bonus. This thread is the only place I have ever seen anyone claim the druid gets his deity's weapon prof.
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I don't know what you mean by 'effective level is limited.' Please explain. Plus, bear shamans only get the bonus with bears. Wolf shamans get the bonus with canines, so dogs and wolves of which there are many. Lion shamans get felines, which covers leopards and tigers which are very respectable. So why would you say bear shamans have 'a much broader range of type you can summon?'
thanks
Higher CR and broder range of CR to start with for the Bear.
Bear, Black (CR3)Bear, Brown or Grizzly (CR4)
Bear, Dire (CR7)
Wolf (CR 1)
Wolf, Dire (CR 3)
This thread is the only place I have ever seen anyone claim the druid gets his deity's weapon prof.Which is why I'm asking. There are others that a google search would provide.
Thanks, calagar. You still don't think the Travel domain is worth enough for the wolf domain? +10' move, Dim Door, Teleport?
Thanks, shadowcat. I'll look at feather domain again. And I think Mehir Savant would take some getting used to.
cheers
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I was just saying if your going shaman. Bear shaman is a bit better then going wolf shaman.
From wolf shaman the choices of domains Travel and Wolf are the best. For different reasons and different type of characters.
The travel domain is really good for a caster.
The wolf domain is amazing for a combat character.
From Bear shaman the top choice is animal companion. If your playing human taking the eye for talent and given up your bonus feet. Gains a +2 to any one stat. Putting this to Str starts the bear with Str 17. At the same time it makes for a very good combat character. That dose not affect your casting ability.
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Druids do not get proficiency in there patrons weapon.I'm getting conflicting information concerning bow use from Erastil. People are pointing me to Pathfinder Adventure Path #32: Rivers Run Red, but I don't have it to confirm. Can someone please quote chapter and verse that druids can get longbow proficiency worshiping Erastil?
Gods & Magic p. 15, at the end of the Erastil write-up details how druids of Erastil can use shortbows and longbows (and composite versions thereof) in addition to being able to cast goodberry on nuts. Each of the 'big 20' gods (except Nethys) grants some little bonus to their clerics, and, in some cases, druids, adepts, paladins, rangers, bards or even monks (Irori) or illusionists (Sivanah)!
The bit about Lamashtan druids summoning fiendish critters is on p. 25 of Gods & Magic, and Gorumite druids can, with some specific restrictions (no spellcasting!), wear metal armor, per page 17.
As far as I know, no other diety grants druids anything special for weapon proficiencies, although there are a ton of lesser dieties I'm not familiar with...
@Set, perfect. Thank you very much. One last thing. Is there a racial requirement for Erastil or the others? Another person specified human only. Could a dwarf or half-something get the same benefits?
cheers
So, I found this old thread and was surprised about how the conversation went. Do druids of Erastil really get longbow and shortbow proficiency for free? Did these rules change over the course of almost 10 years?
Edit: So, it actually lists that on the Archives for Nethys, but that's wild. Feels weird that I never knew Druids could get bow proficiency that way.
So, I found this old thread and was surprised about how the conversation went. Do druids of Erastil really get longbow and shortbow proficiency for free? Did these rules change over the course of almost 10 years?
Edit: So, it actually lists that on the Archives for Nethys, but that's wild. Feels weird that I never knew Druids could get bow proficiency that way.
nethys is showing Shortbows only for proficiency; that’s not as exciting.
There’s a ton of random one-off deity specific abilities that i keep discovering, as i haven’t ever seen an index with ‘random unique deity rules’ to scan through.
The index with 'random unique deity rules' is simply the AoN deities page... they all seem to offer something... and I always seem to be searching for a reason to Deific Obedience... so I keep it bookmarked. Lol.
But yeah, all those little hidden gems are great for optimization... sometimes those little unique extras are worth an entire build all to themselves.
The AoN ruling comes from this text:
Erastil’s favored weapon is the longbow, but his clerics
and druids are proficient with the shortbow as well.
This doesn't actually contradict Kingmaker, but it is somewhat strange wording. Taking Kingmaker into account, it's as if the writer was under the impression Druids get proficiency with favored weapons.
Honestly, the difference between shortbows and longbows is so small that the harsher ruling is still pretty decent for druids.
If your GM is one to play things so strictly, and you are REALLY trying to weasel in bow proficiency without a dip or feat... I very seriously doubt that you would ever notice the difference between a shortbow and longbow throughout the entirety of your character's career.
Has anyone ever actually shot past either shortbow or longbow range increment to receive the range penalty? Of course not, that never happens (unless you are shooting ship-to-ship, which again, never happens). The difference in damage in irrelevant at 1st level, and is still irrelevant at 20th level... you'll be fine with a shortbow.
It is strange that neither the writer or editing crew caught that, though. It is pretty obvious that the writer was operating under the assumption Druids got proficiency in their deity's favored weapon... which is just not the case. Any proofreading before print should have seen that underlying assumption to be false.
To collect the rules:
Inner Sea Gods pg. 54: "Erastil's favored weapon is the longbow, but his clerics and druids are proficient with the shortbow as well."
AP #32 Rivers Run Red (Kingmaker book 2) pg. 68: "His weapon is the longbow (his clerics and druids are proficient with both the longbow and shortbow)."
AoN uses the ISG text as a ruling, which is why it only states shortbow prof. However, both texts seem to only intend to expand the proficiency for longbow from being the favored weapon to also include shortbow (as indicative by the "as well" and the parenthesises, respectively), and thus characters without deity's favored weapon prof shouldn't get proficiency with shortbow, either. The ISG is strongly based on (and mostly copy-pasted from) the Kingmaker text, which is why the mistake was repeated four years later. It should also be noted that Kingmaker was just the second AP published for Pathfinder as a stand-alone game, which means the text was written within a few months after the release of the CRB.
Honestly, the difference between shortbows and longbows is so small that the harsher ruling is still pretty decent for druids.
I disagree. Considering the strength of Deadeye Bowman and Erastil's Blessing, especially on a Druid, I think it makes a lot of difference.