I was thinking about cunning initiative and how it can be made into a feat.
The Original is:
At 2nd level, an inquisitor adds her Wisdom modifier on initiative checks, in addition to her Dexterity modifier.
Insightful Initiative
Prerequisites: Wisdom 13+, able to cast level 1+ divine spells.Benefit: At the start of each encounter, character replaces their dexterity bonus with their wisdom bonus for purposes of calculating initiative.
with this set up, you still have to be a divine caster, as well as have a positive initiative bonus, but it still allows Inquisitors to maintain their initiative superiority.
What do folks think?
Umm... as written, the ability does not replace Dex with Wis for inititative, it adds both modifiers.
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Nope. Improved Initiative already exists. There's really no reason for this other than blatant powermongering. This is of the same level as that "use Con for Will saves" feat from 3.5.
Plus, wisdom is far more important to druids and clerics than Inquisitors, so between that and improved Initiative, they will blow past the inquisitor's initiative.
Plus, wisdom is far more important to druids and clerics than Inquisitors, so between that and improved Initiative, they will blow past the inquisitor's initiative.
Maybe my math skills are deficient:
Dex Mod is say..2?
Wis Mod is say..3?
Improved Init is 4?
Inquisitor is 2+3+4=9
Cleric, Dr00d of the same level is perhaps: 4+4 = 8? (assuming one absolutely bumps the s$%% out of their wis)
I fail to see how "blow past" is a possibility..
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Also, is it blatant "Powermongering" to take improved initiative as a Inquis? I mean you can very easily hit a 9, or even 10 initiative as an inquisitor..so..that must be blatant power mongering. /nerf inquisitors.
*facepalm*
let's not play the "name calling" game? just because someone is looking for a similar (but lesser) tactical advantage doesn't make them a "power mongerer" or any such. calling anyone names (especially in a place for brain-storming like the homebrew section) is both anti-creativity, and just a little sad. If you disagree? I have no issue, calling someone a power mongerer because they might take a feat I'm getting my jollies putting together because i'm bored and can't sleep? kinda overkill, right? or am I wrong?
Plus, wisdom is far more important to druids and clerics than Inquisitors, so between that and improved Initiative, they will blow past the inquisitor's initiative.Maybe my math skills are deficient:
Dex Mod is say..2?
Wis Mod is say..3?
Improved Init is 4?Inquisitor is 2+3+4=9
Cleric, Dr00d of the same level is perhaps: 4+4 = 8? (assuming one absolutely bumps the s!!@ out of their wis)
I fail to see how "blow past" is a possibility..
****
Also, is it blatant "Powermongering" to take improved initiative as a Inquis? I mean you can very easily hit a 9, or even 10 initiative as an inquisitor..so..that must be blatant power mongering. /nerf inquisitors.*facepalm*
let's not play the "name calling" game? just because someone is looking for a similar (but lesser) tactical advantage doesn't make them a "power mongerer" or any such. calling anyone names (especially in a place for brain-storming like the homebrew section) is both anti-creativity, and just a little sad. If you disagree? I have no issue, calling someone a power mongerer because they might take a feat I'm getting my jollies putting together because i'm bored and can't sleep? kinda overkill, right? or am I wrong?
It's pretty munchkin in my opinion. it creates another dump stat for clerics and druids, as if you're a caster, your AC isnt gonna get high enough to matter anyways, your reflex save isnt fantastic to start with. The main reason to have dex in the first place is init. So you get to dump dex down to 7 or 8 now, have a 18-20 wis (for high save DCs on spells and such) and get a +6-7 initiative from a feat. makes it almost twice as good as improved initiative, and for that reason I'd not allow it.
It's pretty munchkin in my opinion. it creates another dump stat for clerics and druids, as if you're a caster, your AC isnt gonna get high enough to matter anyways, your reflex save isnt fantastic to start with. The main reason to have dex in the first place is init. So you get to dump dex down to 7 or 8 now, have a 18-20 wis (for high save DCs on spells and such) and get a +6-7 initiative from a feat. makes it almost twice as good as improved initiative, and for that reason I'd not allow it.
****
Also, is it blatant "Powermongering" to take improved initiative as a Inquis? I mean you can very easily hit a 9, or even 10 initiative as an inquisitor..so..that must be blatant power mongering. /nerf inquisitors.*facepalm*
let's not play the "name calling" game? just because someone is looking for a similar (but lesser) tactical advantage doesn't make them a "power mongerer" or any such. calling anyone names (especially in a place for brain-storming like the homebrew section) is both anti-creativity, and just a little sad. If you disagree? I have no issue, calling someone a power mongerer because they might take a feat I'm getting my jollies putting together because i'm bored and can't sleep? kinda overkill, right? or am I wrong?
Hmm..what's wrong with having a dump stat? everyone does it, and it's a significant strategy in almost every build I've ever seen. Also the "main" reason to have dex (i almost wrote sex..) is ranged combat (or finesse fighting)
why is it ok for fighters, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, samurai, and all other "fighty" classes to have dumpstats, but casters don't get to have one..?
I hate class features as feats.
reasonable argument, any particular reason?
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It's pretty munchkin in my opinion. it creates another dump stat for clerics and druids, as if you're a caster, your AC isnt gonna get high enough to matter anyways, your reflex save isnt fantastic to start with. The main reason to have dex in the first place is init. So you get to dump dex down to 7 or 8 now, have a 18-20 wis (for high save DCs on spells and such) and get a +6-7 initiative from a feat. makes it almost twice as good as improved initiative, and for that reason I'd not allow it.
****
Also, is it blatant "Powermongering" to take improved initiative as a Inquis? I mean you can very easily hit a 9, or even 10 initiative as an inquisitor..so..that must be blatant power mongering. /nerf inquisitors.*facepalm*
let's not play the "name calling" game? just because someone is looking for a similar (but lesser) tactical advantage doesn't make them a "power mongerer" or any such. calling anyone names (especially in a place for brain-storming like the homebrew section) is both anti-creativity, and just a little sad. If you disagree? I have no issue, calling someone a power mongerer because they might take a feat I'm getting my jollies putting together because i'm bored and can't sleep? kinda overkill, right? or am I wrong?
Hmm..what's wrong with having a dump stat? everyone does it, and it's a significant strategy in almost every build I've ever seen. Also the "main" reason to have dex (i almost wrote sex..) is ranged combat (or finesse fighting)
why is it ok for fighters, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, samurai, and all other "fighty" classes to have dumpstats, but casters don't get to have one..?
Nothing's wrong with having A dump stat, but if a Cleric can dump Dex then they have TWO really easy dump stats, Dex and Int. The only thing you get from Int is skills as a cleric. I think each class should have a single true dump stat, but not two. Just my personal opinion.
And a casting cleric can easily dump Str, Int (esp if human), and with this, Dex.
A dump stat isnt the issue, a build that has 3 reliable ones (fighters who dump wis spend a feat for 2 will back. This cleric gets 7 Init back, the equivalent of almost 2 feats. its not balanced that way)
That's why I don't like. Not to mention reducing the diversity of classes by taking away cool tricks of certain ones.
I think its a unique bonus for inquisitors and with this feat, would become an auto-take feat for Clerics and Druids.
Whenever a feats so good I can't see any of my characters of XX class take it I am wary of adding it to the game.
I don't know about auto. It's nice, yeah. Really nice. But how much to you care about Init? Rogues are the ones that it really matters for. And there's always inmproved init which is a straight +4. Nobody's calling that broken.
Right. This has the potential to be +7. That's almost twice as good as what a standard feat is.
Right. This has the potential to be +7. That's almost twice as good as what a standard feat is.
It's just Init. Not really a game breaking mechanic.
That's irrelevant. When you make homebrew materials, you're supposed to compare to current pathfinder stuff to see if its balanced. If it's almost twice as good (as this can be) then it isn't. It's not rocket surgery.
If you're the DM, it's your call. Obviously coming in with a biased perspective, no ones going to simply convince you if you don't want to be convinced. I've outlined in reasonable terms why I feel its unbalanced compared to current options. I've given hard data showing this.
That's about all that can be done.
That's irrelevant. When you make homebrew materials, you're supposed to compare to current pathfinder stuff to see if its balanced. If it's almost twice as good (as this can be) then it isn't. It's not rocket surgery.
If you're the DM, it's your call. Obviously coming in with a biased perspective, no ones going to simply convince you if you don't want to be convinced. I've outlined in reasonable terms why I feel its unbalanced compared to current options. I've given hard data showing this.
That's about all that can be done.
and it can be done by Inquisitors right NOW. so I kinda find this argument to be somewhat invalid.
and it can be done by Inquisitors right NOW. so I kinda find this argument to be somewhat invalid.That's irrelevant. When you make homebrew materials, you're supposed to compare to current pathfinder stuff to see if its balanced. If it's almost twice as good (as this can be) then it isn't. It's not rocket surgery.
If you're the DM, it's your call. Obviously coming in with a biased perspective, no ones going to simply convince you if you don't want to be convinced. I've outlined in reasonable terms why I feel its unbalanced compared to current options. I've given hard data showing this.
That's about all that can be done.
Yes, but only Inquisitors can do it right now. Introducing this feat would allow Paladins, Druids, and Clerics to do it too. Once people start introducing feats like this one, they start looking at other class abilities they want to take as well. Making a feat like this opens to door to Bards, Sorcerers, and Oracles taking the Homebrew feat Forceful Personality.
Forceful Personality: Taking this feat allows you to add your Charisma bonus to all of your saves in addition to your regular ability scores.
Now I just made that feat up and it's an obvious rip off of the Divine Grace Paladin class feature. When you open a door like this one, you can't go back and shut it later. Otherwise you end up with things people complaining about GM favoritism.
I hit the mouse pad on accident. Oops.
Imagine a Monk taking Forceful Personality, you'd almost never affect him with an ability that allows a save. Then there's other things now as well.
A Paladin, Cleric, Inquisitor or Druid takes a feat that allows them to add Wisdom to their AC like the Monk.
In the extreme sense, you open the door to turning all class abilities into feats, allowing people to custom build a class with whatever feature they want.
Initiative is very important. I agree with Weables :-)
Full casters, at present, can dump ALL stats except their prime casting stat (for spells) and Dex (for initiative, which is all-important when they get to higher levels and the game becomes rocket launcher tag). If you link initiative to their prime casting stat, then casters suddently have five dump stats and one pumped through the roof.
That's bad game design, unless your intent is to re-create Ars Magica.
Plus, wisdom is far more important to druids and clerics than Inquisitors, so between that and improved Initiative, they will blow past the inquisitor's initiative.Maybe my math skills are deficient:
Dex Mod is say..2?
Wis Mod is say..3?
Improved Init is 4?Inquisitor is 2+3+4=9
Cleric, Dr00d of the same level is perhaps: 4+4 = 8? (assuming one absolutely bumps the s&~+ out of their wis)
A cleric would have more or less no use of dex if it can replace init with Wis.
A 2nd level 15 pb ranged inquisitor might have 12/16/12/10/14/9 after racials (just guessing a bit here for a decent build), giving a bonus of +3+4+2=+9.
A 2nd level 15 pb caster cleric might have 7/8/12/10/20/12 after racials (or switch str and int if you want to), giving a bonus of:
+5+4=9
Now, the price is an additional feat, but full casters in general are more dependent on first turns, and the feat allows clerics and druids to more or less ignore dexterity - their defenses are decent enough anyway, many doesnt use ranged attacks, and so on.
I guess the replacing hurts them a little bit at higher levels where most usually get a cheap belt, but instead of a +4 all belt and +4 headband you might get a +2 con belt and a +6 headband for mostly the same effect if you have the feat...
EDIT: Initiative is already a crazily wanted resource and players go to great lengths to increase it. Further giving them this is, in my opinion, a bad idea. Personally I've been thinking of going the other route - making initiative = base reflex save + Dex and retooling special abilities to NOT give bonuses to initiative (compsognatus companion with +_4_ to init? what where they smoking? No, thank you, a +1 dodge bonus and a -2 penalty to survival (get it? ;D) and I'm satisfied ;D)
@Shanwolf: I wonder why you would limit this feat to divine spellcasters in the first place. Is there a special reason for that?
I know my reply is a year and some change late (Had to take a break from some of the more negative aspects of these forums) but the reason why I would limit this feat to Divine casters is the nature of the original source material (i.e. Inq class ability) It doesn't naturally HAVE to be, but for the most part I thought limiting it to Divine Classes gives it a tiny bit of balance.
a lot of people were (at the time) complaining of "Munchkinism" but failing to see how say Pathfinder society is played. You're looking for the maximum bonus available, and in that vein, I've found that limiting it to Divine Casters gives those caster types more options when it comes to going earlier in combat.
I suppose it could be limited by race as well, in order to limit access to it better? Not sure.
Still..the math holds up. At similar levels, INQ's still win in the overall Init race, but this gives casters a "leg up" in order to make them more viable as combatants (as opposed to just sitting around waiting for damage and being "healbots")
This feat is a horrible idea. It's basically just a blatant power grab for cleric and druid (and Empyreal Sorceror). Going first is very nice for a caster.
Nope. Improved Initiative already exists. There's really no reason for this other than blatant powermongering. This is of the same level as that "use Con for Will saves" feat from 3.5.
No, it's not. "That feat," Steadfast Determination, required a worthless pre-req feat. And last time I checked, no spellcaster uses Con to set save DCs and bonus spells/day. So no, this is not of the same level.
Now, there *was* a feat to use Wis to Initiative in 3E, that would be a more apples-to-apples comparison. Yondalla's Sense. Now, that one was also possibly overpowered, but it at least had one major drawback: You have to be a Halfling, which is a pretty big setback for a cleric or a PF druid (not as big for a 3E druid I guess; wildshape replaced your physical scores). I guess this drawback would be fairly meaningless in PF, what with the Racial Heritage feat.
Still..the math holds up. At similar levels, INQ's still win in the overall Init race, but this gives casters a "leg up" in order to make them more viable as combatants (as opposed to just sitting around waiting for damage and being "healbots")
Inquisitors might still win it if they place points into wis/dex. A little mad, its why it really helps them. Full casters will easily reach 22 wisdom, and quickly. So they get a +6 out of it and that will only get higher.
Another thing to remember is how powerful full casters are. Many are not just heal bots, many are devastating crowd control. Full casting is by far one of the most powerful things in the game.
I should point out this is not an excuse to drop dex. Dex also adds to AC and Reflex and sometimes finesse. Initiative is definitely important, but I wouldn't say it makes dex a dump. If agile were a feat we might see strength become a dump for some classes because it has so little use, but dex has many. It will however take away one of the big uses of dex, at the cost of a feat for a class that may no be feat intensive.
It exists for Charisma already
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion
Just take the Scion of War option
It exists for Charisma already
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/noble-scion
Ah...so that's how the "geysermancer" build I saw on gitp was adding his +15 charisma mod to intiative, to get it to like +45 by 20th level...
+45 initiative is just overkill I think. Is there even a creature in the beastiary who gets that? I know some always roll a nat 20 and some have that and the ability to add wisdom themselves but I don't know if those have a +25. +45 is just... insane.
I should also add that replacing wis to dex is hardly stealing a class feature. Its not like a series of feats to gain the bard's perform or spellcasting, or letting you gain rage and qualify for rage powers as a feat. Some class features are more equal than others.
+45 initiative is just overkill I think. Is there even a creature in the beastiary who gets that? I know some always roll a nat 20 and some have that and the ability to add wisdom themselves but I don't know if those have a +25. +45 is just... insane.
Well, I mis-remembered. He actually "only" had a +41 initiative mod. 45 was the DC of his huge radius dazing geyser that does force damage you have to save against twice to shrug off.
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...I've found that limiting it to Divine Casters gives those caster types more options when it comes to going earlier in combat...
...but this gives casters a "leg up" in order to make them more viable as combatants (as opposed to just sitting around waiting for damage and being "healbots")...
Are you being serious right now?
This is a bad idea. A very bad idea. Giving the same effect to certain classes as a non-feat boon is good (monk comes to mind almost instantly, so I gave it to them in my fix), but putting it out as a feat available to all is a terrible idea. ESPECIALLY if you limit it to casters.