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Okay, so I keep hearing people say that they don't like catfolk in D&D/Pathfinder because they are "too anime." However, the first time I encountered catfolk was the Rakasta in Mystara clear back in 1991 or 1992. At that point the only anime that I had encountered was "Battle of the Planets," "Starblazers," and "Robotech" and didn't even know there was a term "anime." So I have always considered catfolk to be part of D&D lore and have never questioned their inclusion. I am interested to know how the community at large feels about it, so please share your thoughts about the inclusion of catfolk. I am more interested in the thinking behind the positions so if you would, please explain why you feel the way that you do on the subject.
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I don't know if I saw it in D&D first, but I know I saw catfolk in Western fantasy first (read about it in fantasy novels), before I ever saw it in anime. (In fact, while I've seen a lot of catgirls drawn in Japanese art style, mostly in the Artists Alley at Otakon, I can't think of a lot of catgirls I've seen as characters in manga and anime, outside of the iconic Ms. Nuku Nuku.)
Oh yes, and I know there was a cat-woman in H.G. Wells' Island of Dr. Moreau, written well before the first major Japanese cartoons were made in the 1950s.
In fact, anthropomorphic animals and the like have been a common image in folklore for a long, long, long time. If you think about it, Bast is an early catgirl ;) .
Anthropomorphics are commonly seen in Japanese art because Japanese art, stereotypically speaking, often fetishizes the cute--and artists often enjoy depicting what can't be possible in real life.
But it certainly didn't start there.
I grew up reading science fiction, specifically Andre Norton. To me, catfolk are a standard. I saw them in a lot of SF and never really thought too much about their inclusion in fantasy. To me it was a logical extension.
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Heh, I saw cat humanoids in Star Fleet Battles material (Kzinti and later Lyrans) from the late 70's and early 80's and they are definitely not described or depicted as anything like the now current anime cat person style; can't imagine that any old D&D cat person race or references would be disimilar (I see them as less feral weretiger hybrids in that point of view).
Now if you cross an elf with catfolk...
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People seem to forget that the cool thing about Pathfinder is there is something for everyone to use. You can have a game with an anime feel or not, you can use advanced guns or not etc. This allows your games to go the direction you want them too. The Catfolk as a race does not have to be cutesie anime catgirls, can be instead a barbaric race of catpeople you can have their look be more house cat like or base them off of big cats such as Lions or Tigers.
A lot of people saw catfolk and immediately saw "Anime" and hated it with out looking at any thing else about the race.
Catfolk do have some mythological reference ie Bast, Rakasha, and Japanese folk lore, I've read quite a few Japanese folk tales that included women that could turn into cats, which is in part where the Japanese Catgirl evolved from. Most of those stories were more creepy than cute.
The best thing about this race is with nothing more than a base description change and maybe different art Catfolk can be just about anything and fit any setting.
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The Catfolk as a race does not have to be cutesie anime catgirls, can be instead a barbaric race of catpeople you can have their look be more house cat like or base them off of big cats such as Lions or Tigers.
That is exactly how catfolk are treated in my campaign. They are a race of wild barbarians that dine on the flesh of other sentient races, ride dire tigers into battle, and deny the existence of any power greater than themselves, or at least that is the general perception of them.
My players better not look
I used Tigra from Marvel Comics as the base for the look of my catfolk in my game. I put them in the barbarian type setting in the bestiary 3, and may or may not add in a feat to give them claws 1d4 damage, or bite 1d4 damage (Like the half orc)
There have been cat folk in D&D for a long time, both the mentioned rakasta, and also the tabaxi. While I cant say I care for the art of the current catfolk, they are quite useable. I am simply "redrawing" them more in the old tabaxi vein, less human and a bit more savage
Nyan nyan!
Linked.
I love anime but my first experience with catgirls were in the 80's with the Thundercats and also other cartoons with more human then animal characters like Cleo from the Catillac Cats segment with Heathcliff. Catgirls really didn't get popular in anime until the 90's and like many sterotypes people have about anime, a lot of things they use is from there exposure to western cultures as well as there own.
I prefer the more human looking in the face type version of catfolk myself because of Thundercats and anime.
I still don't understand the hate for them but these same people want to play lizardfolk, Minotaurs, Drow, Hobgoblins, Ninja Turtles, Immature radiative samurai slugs, etc.
I'm playing a rakasta right now in the Savage Tide AP. (New character) and I plan on playing him as a noble savage.
In one of the DD1E games we had decades ago, I also played a Rakasta, but if you wanted to play a non-standard race, the GM made you do up a 5-6 page race and culture handout so that you were playing more than a furry human...
Cutesy versions are ridiculous. If I had some PC running around constantly licking him or herself and carrying on like some domestic house cat or anime wide eyed hopeless I would trap them in a large burlap sack owned by a giant and have the giant hammer the character to death. That being said, done well it could be interesting and fun. After all, I am a fan of weretigers and rakasha. I do not actively encourage my players to use cat folk or any other race of that type.
SGH
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I have a catfolk monk in my Shackled City game. She plays her as very flighty, self-centered, and with an amusing preoccupation with string. (That last part is a table joke. Although the fighter DID write down 'ball of yarn' on his sheet.)
Ti'al tends to murder any enemy she gets her hands out, however.
I still don't understand the hate for them but these same people want to play lizardfolk, Minotaurs, Drow, Hobgoblins, Ninja Turtles, Immature radiative samurai slugs, etc.
I would guess most of those folks are not cat people and fall into the dog side of the pet world. It explains part of my general dislike.
In addition to many already mentioned, I will also add the Aslan race from the Traveller RPG, which first came out in 1977. It was with this and the Pride of Chanur novels and Marvel's Tigra that I think I had my first exposure to catfolk-type races long before I saw any anime-style ones.
I think maybe a lot of people are opposed to the more cutesy, sexy catgirls out there because of the almost sexual obsession some guys can have for them. If you are a geek and obsessed with catgirls, raise your hand. ;)
I first encountered the "rakasta" cat-people race in the 1981 D&D (NOT AD&D) "X2: Chateau d'Amberville (Castle Amber)" [which, BTW was based on Clark Ashton Smith's Averoigne short stories, NOT Roger Zelazny's Amber novels).
...so, they've been out there for a while.
As for my game: it's core races only (and I tend to discourage gnomes and halflings). Actually, it's pretty rare for any of my players to want to run non-humans, anyway.
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I had a realization at some point in my gaming career, after taking a severe dislike to catfolk and elves: it wasn't the race ideas themselves I had a problem with, it was the people that were playing them. There was a personality clash between me and these people, most of whom were attention-seeking, spotlight-hogging people with other annoying personality quirks.
I'm not saying that all people who want to play catfolk are like this. I just noticed that my aversion to the races came from the players I personally encountered, not with any innate problem with the race ideas themselves. (On a side note, my elf burnout is long over. I just went through a period where nearly all my players wanted to be elves. If they wanted to be different, they'd play a half-elf...)
I have a problem with non-human races in general. It's been my experience that most players aren't looking at the cultural aspects and roleplaying possibilities of a race, they're looking at the stat bonuses and special abilities.
The question I always ask is: if this race had exactly the same bonuses as a human (i.e., none), would you want to run it?
The answer is almost invariably, "No".
If running cat-folk fulfills some roleplaying joy for you, great. I'd welcome the character into my game, welcome the opportunity to play with the cultural interaction. But I'm stingy with bonuses. You have to convince me your character really needs that +2 to Dex or the ability to detect invisible creatures, or that extra bite attack.
Strip away all the special abilities and bonuses of the race and look at it fresh. If the cultural aspects of the character aren't enough for you, then you shouldn't be playing the race, anyway.
I know we've talked about Traveller before in some thread somewhere, but the classic traveller Alien Modules were great for providing alien cultures rather than stats.
And yes, Thejeff, the Aslan and Hani are eerily similar.
Just don't piss off the K'kree...
Generally, I allow the core races as written. It saves argument. But I have at least one player who always plays elves, and always in a fighter/rogue/sorcerer combination to maximize the benefits from being an elf. (He has even bragged that the primary reason he chooses to run elves is because they don't have to sleep.)
As far as the catfolk, or any other race is concerned, it isn't the race per se that's the problem. It's the tendency to choose them just because of the bonuses.
I've been burned so many times by so many players seeking that little edge while ignoring the culture of the race that I'm gun-shy. Or elf-shy. :)
Is he unwilling to play a bard on the grounds that musicians are just way too girly?
But seriously, is that fluff (don't have to sleep) or crunch (immune to sleep effects)? Either way, speaking as a member of elf-anon, if you can't invent a culture, you don't deserve to play a non human.
And yes, a DM must rule with an iron fist; this could be a great rules system if it weren't for the players (sorry Kevin).
In addition to many already mentioned, I will also add the Aslan race from the Traveller RPG, which first came out in 1977.
The Aslan from Traveler and the Rakasta from D&D influenced a homebrew catfolk race of mine from many years back called the K'Tarren (Sing. K'Tarra). One of these days, I am going to update the setting and use it as more than an exercise in planning.
This was the inital background blurb I did for the race:
K’Tarren are a race of feline humanoids. They are covered in short, soft fur that ranges in color from light tan to dark brown, though white, black, and dark red are not unheard of. The ears and muzzle typically have a darker hue that tends to lighten as they age. K’tarren possess piercing cat-like eyes, with vertical pupils, and tails that are nearly four feet in length.
K’tarren are expert seafarers and ship builders. They are a proud and emotional race, possessing a strong sense of honor relating to clan, family, and self. They show great bravery and tenacity in battle, and boost openly of their deeds. They are extremely interested in the world at large and this translates into a wanderlust that demands they explore and experience all things for themselves.
K’tarren speak K’tar, an old language unrelated to any other. It does not use the script of the Common tongue, but is instead composed of ideograms that can have different meanings based on how the symbols are used in a sentence.
A bit of a digression, but what I loved about the Aslan was the way they put cultural identity ahead of racial identity; they were very possibly the most capable warriors in the Traveller game world, and just couldn't get it together...
And Thraxus, if you haven't read the Chanur books by C.J.Cherryh, do so; you have to squint a little, but it looks a lot like the Traveller setting. (Not Imperium vs Zhodani, that's the Alliance-Union stuff.)
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One of my personal favorite catfolk races were the Creesh from the Uresia: Grave of Heaven setting. They looked like anime catfolk, but could sense the presence of magic and ghosts in addition to looking cute and having sharp claws. That extra spiritualist aspect to the race was what pushed them to a new level for me.
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Some of us play in groups with a lot of anime fans. So... (IMO), being a "classic" part of your D&D world and being "Anime" are not necessarily mutually exclusive things. However, to each their own-- I can see from a lot of the posts that many people here aren't anime fans.
I find both non-Anime and Anime catfolk to my taste in games.
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Some of us play in groups with a lot of anime fans. So... (IMO), being a "classic" part of your D&D world and being "Anime" are not necessarily mutually exclusive things.
It was never my intention to imply that they were. My point was more that fantasy RPGs like D&D, and indeed pop culture for centuries, were using anthropomorphic animals long before anime became fashionable in the United States. It was in response to a number of comments I have seen in various different posts and forums that people did not like catfolk being included in Pathfinder because they were opening the door to anime influences.
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Some of us play in groups with a lot of anime fans. So... (IMO), being a "classic" part of your D&D world and being "Anime" are not necessarily mutually exclusive things.It was never my intention to imply that they were. My point was more that fantasy RPGs like D&D, and indeed pop culture for centuries, were using anthropomorphic animals long before anime became fashionable in the United States. It was in response to a number of comments I have seen in various different posts and forums that people did not like catfolk being included in Pathfinder because they were opening the door to anime influences.
Yeah, I can see that. They'd utterly hate gaming with the groups I'm in, though. It does show the breadth of RPG players... some folks really don't want anime influences in their game, some of us really want the anime influences included.
There's at least a few classic anime shows that are actually based on 'western-style' RPGs themselves (Record of Lodoss War, for instance), so the cross-influences between Japanese/Anime culture and US/European SF/Fantasy (and gaming) culture are still going on in both directions.
I have a problem with non-human races in general. It's been my experience that most players aren't looking at the cultural aspects and roleplaying possibilities of a race, they're looking at the stat bonuses and special abilities.
The question I always ask is: if this race had exactly the same bonuses as a human (i.e., none), would you want to run it?
The answer is almost invariably, "No".
If running cat-folk fulfills some roleplaying joy for you, great. I'd welcome the character into my game, welcome the opportunity to play with the cultural interaction. But I'm stingy with bonuses. You have to convince me your character really needs that +2 to Dex or the ability to detect invisible creatures, or that extra bite attack.
Strip away all the special abilities and bonuses of the race and look at it fresh. If the cultural aspects of the character aren't enough for you, then you shouldn't be playing the race, anyway.
Depends on the setting.
Golarion races are mostly dull in my opinion. I might play an elf, but only a forsaken(?) i.e. one who has grown up with humans. Living as a child as everyone you know grows old around you, that has some roleplaying teeth.
But WFRP, by contrast.
Wood elves: Xenophobic, child kidnapping, eco-terrorists engaged in social engineering on a national scale? Yes please.
High elves: Tragic members of a dyinmg race fending of their dark kin, in a last days of a civil war fought over thousands of years, far from their mist shrouded subcontinent home, fighting along side rough savages for a future they will not see? Yeah, thats got some legs on it.
Dwarfs: Insular, grudge bearing, hateful creatures, so bound by their history and their honour, they are doomed to bring about their own existinction, as they refuse to give up their past glory, or ask for the aid of the younger races. Sure thats cool, but definately if I get to play a trollslayer.
The only thing more divisive than the presence of catfolk in some peoples' games is the argument over female dwarves, beards, and locations of same.
But then, I like my catfolk very id-driven, even if civilized, and self-indulgent as can be. They tend to be very much so the race that believes that it's easier to get forgiveness than permission for anything.
I consider them D&D classics, but then again I don't see this insurmountable wall between classic D&D and anime.
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Japan has a habit of taking stuff from other cultures and rehashing it through their own filters.
They did it with anime (Disney Cartoons).
They did it with sword and sorcery (Ever wonder why all their protagonists have bright hair and bright eyes?).
They did it with technology.
I think they did it with cat girls (only because cat girls seem older and more prevalent than the vulpine type which fits more to what I know of their mythology)
I'm thankful every day for Paizo's choice on that matter.The only thing more divisive than the presence of catfolk in some peoples' games is the argument over female dwarves, beards, and locations of same.
Amen to that, though I'm taking a hiatus from image linking 'cause, well, yeah.
Japan has a habit of taking stuff from other cultures and rehashing it through their own filters.
They did it with anime (Disney Cartoons).
They did it with sword and sorcery (Ever wonder why all their protagonists have bright hair and bright eyes?).
They did it with technology.
I think they did it with cat girls (only because cat girls seem older and more prevalent than the vulpine type which fits more to what I know of their mythology)
Somewhat.
Yes with Anime given Disney/Warner Bros. influences.
Sword and Sorcery was a bit of an outgrowth from same, but also some measure of folklore osmosis.
Tech is a given.
Cat girls...were a permutation of their own folklore (that which brought us kitsune also brought us nekomata), combined with osmosis of other cultural ideas as Japan is a voracious consumer of foreign culture. It's not just Egypt's Bast that pulled the meme into their popular culture; they had seeds of the idea in place for a long time, and the singularity that resulted from the prior listed items is what made things go as they did.