At first, I figured they would. Then, a buddy announced that he wants to run a summoner on a campaign I'm going to be running, and asked me the subject question.
Now I'm not sure. I searched the forum, and only found one thread where this was discussed, with answers saying yes, and other answers saying no.
Do any of you guys know for sure, if there's any reason why augment summoning wouldn't benefit an eidolon, since the summoner's description says that they're treated as summoned creatures?
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They would only benefit if they are summoned by the Summon Eidolon spell, not the ritual.
What Mirrel said.
I have two summoners in my group, and I recall finding a rule somewhere saying they're not boosted by Augment Summoning (except when summoned by the spell). Can't recall where it is, but I'm sure someone will produce a page number before too long.
At first, I figured they would. Then, a buddy announced that he wants to run a summoner on a campaign I'm going to be running, and asked me the subject question.
Now I'm not sure. I searched the forum, and only found one thread where this was discussed, with answers saying yes, and other answers saying no.
Do any of you guys know for sure, if there's any reason why augment summoning wouldn't benefit an eidolon, since the summoner's description says that they're treated as summoned creatures?
The text of the feat is fairly clear that the monster must be summoned using a summon spell, and that the duration of the enhancement is based on the duration of the spell.
An eidolon is not normally summoned using a summon spell (unless, of course, you use the summon eidolon spell).
This is critical for game balance as most summoned monsters exist for a short period of time before being dismissed. An eidolon, under normal conditions, is summoned for very large lengths of time.
So if Augment Summoning were to work for eidolons, this would effectively be similar to the eidolon possessing a +4 Belt of Physical Might (a major wondrous item worth 40000 GP) for the price of a feat that only has Spell Focus (conjuration) as a prereq. So you could even gain it at 1st level.
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It doesn't matter that the Eidolon is a summoned creature, the feat clearly says:
Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
calling an eidolon is not the same as summoning it. As Mirrel stated, it WOULD apply to the spell Summon Eidolon, because it is a summon spell.
Also, regardless of whether it affects the Eidolon or not, Augmented Summoning is important for a Summoner because while it doesn't normally affect the Eidolon, it does work on the Summon Monster Spell-Like abilities that the summoner gets.
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it should work because it clearly states that eidolons count as summoned creatures for all purposes
Which is trumped by the feat, which states;
Augment Summoning
Your summoned creatures are more powerful and robust.Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
If you cast the summon eidolon *spell*, it gets the bonus. If you summon the eidolon via the 1 minute ritual, that's not a spell, or even a spell-like ability, but a class feature, like the ability of a druid to 'summon' an animal companion or a paladin to 'summon' a celestial steed.
Even conjuration (summoning) spells that summon creatures, but lack the word 'summon' in the name, like conjure black pudding, eagle aerie, insect plague, mad monkeys, rain of frogs and vomit swarm, don't benefit from Augment Summoning.
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They would only benefit if they are summoned by the Summon Eidolon spell, not the ritual.Not even then. The feat only applies to Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally.
Incorrect:
Augment Summoning
Your summoned creatures are more powerful and robust.
Prerequisite: Spell Focus (conjuration).
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
NOW
Summon Eidolon
School conjuration (summoning); Level summoner 2
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (a silver coin)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one eidolon
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
You open a rift between dimensions that summons your eidolon. Treat this as if you had summoned your eidolon normally, except that it only remains with you for the duration of this spell. While summoned in this way, your eidolon cannot touch any creature warded by protection from evil or a similar effect and your eidolon can be sent back to its home plane by dispel magic.
If you cast this spell while your eidolon is already on your plane, this spell has no effect. This spell allows you to summon your eidolon even if it has been returned to its home plane due to damage.
Even conjuration (summoning) spells that summon creatures, but lack the word 'summon' in the name, like conjure black pudding, eagle aerie, insect plague, mad monkeys, rain of frogs and vomit swarm, don't benefit from Augment Summoning.
I am confused. Set refers to the exact wording of the feat description to only allow spells with the word 'summon in it, not summoning spells.
Not even then. The feat only applies to Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally.
LazarX says, it only applies to certain spells with the word 'summon' in it, not all of them.
Also, regardless of whether it affects the Eidolon or not, Augmented Summoning is important for a Summoner because while it doesn't normally affect the Eidolon, it does work on the Summon Monster Spell-Like abilities that the summoner gets.
Elamdri, otoh, allows the feat even for the spell-like ability summon...
Ultimate Magic supports Elamdris opinion, because the master summoner's main ability is to summon (lots of) monsters, and he gets Augment Sumoning as his 2nd level class ability.
I am honestly confused. Apart from the master summoner, is there any support in the rules for either side?
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Even conjuration (summoning) spells that summon creatures, but lack the word 'summon' in the name, like conjure black pudding, eagle aerie, insect plague, mad monkeys, rain of frogs and vomit swarm, don't benefit from Augment Summoning.I am confused. Set refers to the exact wording of the feat description to only allow spells with the word 'summon in it, not summoning spells.
I believe Set is incorrect on that part.
If you look at all those spells:
Conjure Black Pudding
School conjuration (summoning)
Eagle Aerie
School conjuration (summoning)
Insect Plague
School conjuration (summoning)
Mad Monkeys
School conjuration (summoning)
Rain of Frogs
School conjuration (summoning)
Vomit Swarm
School conjuration (summoning)
As well as
Summon Monster I
School conjuration (summoning)
Summon Nature's Ally I
School conjuration (summoning)
Summon Eidolon
School conjuration (summoning)
they are ALL summoning spells. Which means that Augmented Summoning, which says: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
So it applies to all of them.
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Also, regardless of whether it affects the Eidolon or not, Augmented Summoning is important for a Summoner because while it doesn't normally affect the Eidolon, it does work on the Summon Monster Spell-Like abilities that the summoner gets.Elamdri, otoh, allows the feat even for the spell-like ability summon...
Ultimate Magic supports Elamdris opinion, because the master summoner's main ability is to summon (lots of) monsters, and he gets Augment Sumoning as his 2nd level class ability.
I am honestly confused. Apart from the master summoner, is there any support in the rules for either side?
Basically, if a feat can modify a spell, it can also modify a spell-like ability.
So if you have for example Spell Focus Conjuration, and you have a Conjuration Spell-Like Ability (Lets say stinking cloud) you apply the feat to the spell like abililty.
The only time where this is not true is with Metamagic feats because they modify the level of the spell and spell-like abilities don't have levels.
I wasn't going to bring it up because while it was hinted at, I didn't want this to turn into that thread again, but now that it was explicitly said...According to the rules, feats that affect spells ONLY affect spells, not spell-like abilities.
You can see the reason for it here. This comes up often enough that it's easier for me to just link to an old post on it.
The reason that Augment Summons works with the spell-like ability of the summoner is because of explicit designer fiat.
The main reason why SLAs can't be affected by metamagic is because they aren't spells. The lack of slots is the icing on the cake of denial.
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Your asserting that any summon spell is the same as any spell with summon in the name, but their is nothing RAW in your quotation that supports that interpretation over the interpretation that it is any spell of the summon subschool. The later interpretation seems equally reasonable. (unless their is some FAQ I'm unaware of that gives a different RAI?)
So the feat isn't a particularly powerful, (not with standing the Eidolon question at hand) my rational being:
1) Spell Focus: Conjuration, is more of a feat tax for augment summoning, there just aren't a lot of Conjuration school spells with saves (all though the pits spells are now present.)
2) The extra spells I'm implying should be included are already punished/balanced enough, a swarm of monkeys is more or less as powerful as most of the stuff on Summon Monster III but requires you to learn and memorize (or worse add it to your constrained spells known list) separately from the base spell. This holds true for most of the one off summon spells, forcing you to swap versatility of a mildly improved effect. Further punishing by excluding the effect of the Augment Summoning feat makes those spells in line or worse with their same level partners.
Said another way, 99% of all summons are meat puppets and punching bags, this is not game breaking, and given both interpretations are reasonable RAI (again lacking alternative citation) why not favour the stronger interpretation, understanding that both players and villains can enjoy such feats.
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I wasn't going to bring it up because while it was hinted at, I didn't want this to turn into that thread again, but now that it was explicitly said...According to the rules, feats that affect spells ONLY affect spells, not spell-like abilities.
You can see the reason for it here. This comes up often enough that it's easier for me to just link to an old post on it.
The reason that Augment Summons works with the spell-like ability of the summoner is because of explicit designer fiat.
The main reason why SLAs can't be affected by metamagic is because they aren't spells. The lack of slots is the icing on the cake of denial.
Ah apparently I am wrong. Well partially anyway. Seems somewhat silly to me, but rules are the rules I guess.
Augment Summoning only affects summoned creatures that were summoned via a spell with the word "Summon" in the name. It does not affect all conjuration spells of the summoning subtype and it does not affect all effects that are summoning type effects.
It must be a spell with the word "Summon" in the name.
Note: "summon" in the feat "Augment Summoning" is italicized. Back in 3.5 spell names in paragraphs were typically italicized. This is how we knew it referenced the spell name and not the type.
The same has held true in Pathfinder in the CRB, spell names in a paragraph are italicized.
Examples can be found on pages 49, 73, 80 etc.
Conversely, summoning subschool buffs are specifically called out in other ways as either a buff to the subschool (CRB p74) or as conjuration (summoning) (CRB p80).
Summary: Augment Summoning only affects spells with the word "Summon" in the name. It does not affect any other type of summoning effect and thus does not affect Eidolons when they are called but does affect them when using the spell Summon Eidolon.
Edit: There is a FAQ whose intent appears to be that Augment Summoning is limited to Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally in which case Augment Summoning would not even apply to Summon Eidolon.
SLOBlues,
Not only have the rules been cited (italic name = spell reference and not a general reference) there is a FAQ on it that covers this. Only two spells benefit from Augment Summoning neither of which have anything to do with Eidolons.
No other form of summoning benefits.
By the italicized text and by FAQ, you cannot apply Augment Summoning to an Eidolon. To do so otherwise is a house rule.
This has been hashed over many, many times.
Augmented Summing only applied to an eidolon when you use the Summon Eidolon spell.
Augmented Summoning required a spell be used to summon the creature. The summoner's ritual is not a spell.
You can argue the eidolon counts as a summoned creature until you turn blue in the face. While the argument is technically correct, that is not the condition that is being violated. The eidolon must be summoned with a spell, not a ritual, in order to be augmented.
_Ozy_, oops, you are right. I misread it. However, my original point regarding the italicized word "summon" still stands. The italics mean "Summon spell".
_Ozy_, oops, you are right. I misread it. However, my original point regarding the italicized word "summon" still stands. The italics mean "Summon spell".I agree, but there are actually 4 (AFAIK) spells that qualify. In addition to SM and SNA, there is Summon Swarm and Summon Eidolon. So, an Eidolon summoned via spell would seem to qualify for the feat.
Right, that was my interpretation before I misread the FAQ and it is again. :)
SLOBlues, there is a major difference between being a summoned creature and being a Summon spell.
It is the same difference as a dog is a mammal but a mammal is not necessarily a dog.
Summoned creatures are a broad category. Creatures summoned by a spell (and by FAQ spell-like ability) with the word "Summon" in the name are a subset. The feat only applies to the subset.
So we have the following reasons it does not apply to Eidolons.
1) Eidolons are using a supernatural ability to be summoned. This is not a spell or spell-like ability and therefore does not qualify.
Exception: The Summon Eidolon spell.
2) Eidolons are not being summoned via a spell (or SLA) with the word "Summon" in the name.
Exception: The Summon Eidolon spell.
So unless you are using the Summon Eidolon spell you cannot use Augment Summoning with Eidolons.
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I'll break it down really simply, SLOBlues.
If it's not a spell, as defined in the magic chapter for casting spells and found on some dude's spell list, etc, it's not a spell.
There are many magic abilities that are not spells. Including, spell-like and supernatural abilities.
In fact, many classes that have the ability to cast spells also have additional magical abilities outside of their ability to cast spells. In fact, virtually all of them do. Wizard school powers, for example, are generally spell-like abilities or supernatural powers. They are not spells. A wizard cannot quicken their school power, they cannot make a scroll of their school power, they cannot scribe a copy of their school power, they cannot prepare additional uses of their school power, they cannot cast their school power with their spell slots, they cannot use metamagic rods with their school powers, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Summoners do not apply Augment Summoning to their eidolon when it is called via the ritual, it much the same way that adepts do not apply Augment Summoning to their familiars.
1) Eidolons are using a supernatural ability to be summoned. This is not a spell or spell-like ability and therefore does not qualify.
Exception: The Summon Eidolon spell.There is zero indication that the Eidolon is a supernatural ability. It is a spell. The Summoner isn't pacted, it isn't demonic, it is an arcane spell user who has specialized in summoning a particular entity.
While many who dabble in the arcane become adept at beckoning monsters from the farthest reaches of the planes, none are more skilled at it than the summoner. This practitioner of the arcane arts forms a close bond with one particular outsider, known as an eidolonAgain, the red hearings are real in this argument. The Summoner is not a supernatural begin, he is an arcane spell user. To argue Eidolon is a super natural ability is unsupported in the Rules.
2) Eidolons are not being summoned via a spell (or SLA) with the word "Summon" in the name.
Exception: The Summon Eidolon spell.A Summoner is an arcane spell user, how uses and requires no other means of summoning the Eidolon than his specialized arcane talents. As an arcane user exerts his arcane magic through spells, the ability to summon an Eidolon is necessarily an arcane spell.
Also of interest, Augment Summoning works on the Summoner's alternative to the Eidolon "Summon Monster" and it is just as innately an ability to the Summoner as the Eidolon, and is presented as a situational alternative.
Actually, lets look at that.
You are correct it does not say "(SU)" in the ability. So, you are right that it is not listed as a supernatural ability (although the Devs state otherwise).
Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires. The eidolon’s Hit Dice, saving throws, skills, feats, and abilities are tied to the summoner’s class level and increase as the summoner gains levels. In addition, each eidolon receives a pool of evolution points, based on the summoner’s class level, that can be used to give the eidolon different abilities and powers. Whenever the summoner gains a level, he must decide how these points are spent, and they are set until he gains another level of summoner.
The eidolon’s physical appearance is up to the summoner, but it always appears as some sort of fantastical creature. This control is not fine enough to make the eidolon appear like a specific creature. The eidolon also bears a glowing rune that is identical to a rune that appears on the summoner’s forehead as long as the eidolon is summoned. While this rune can be hidden through mundane means, it cannot be concealed through magic that changes appearance, such as alter self or polymorph (although invisibility does conceal it as long as the spell lasts).
So, not Supernatural (although the Devs state otherwise).
Is it Spell-Like? Nope, no "(Sp)" either.
Is it a spell? Nope, it does not state that it is a spell. It does not use spell slots and has no spell level.
What qualifies things to be used with Augment Summoning?
They must be a spell (due to the wording of Augment Summoning) or spell-like ability (due to FAQ) with the word Summon in the name.
This ability is neither, you cannot use Augment Summoning on it.
You have repeatedly stated this is a spell but until you can show what spell slot it takes up it is not a spell. If you are going to continue to assert that it is a spell (or even assert it is a Spell-Like ability) please quote the text that unambiguously states that it is one of these things.
From the magic chapter:
"The description of each spell is presented in a standard format."
The eidolon summoning ritual has no description presented in the standard format. Ergo, the summoning ritual is not a spell.
please quote the text that unambiguously states that it is one of these things.What qualifies things to be used with Augment Summoning?
They must be a spell (due to the wording of Augment Summoning) or spell-like ability (due to FAQ) with the word Summon in the name.They must be a spell: I will italicize this.
They must be a Summon: I will bold these....Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. , except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
A summoner can summon his eidolon in a ritual that takes 1 minute to perform. When summoned in this way, the eidolon hit points are unchanged from the last time it was summoned. The only exception to this is if the eidolon was slain, in which case it returns with half its normal hit points. The eidolon does not heal naturally. The eidolon remains until dismissed by the summoner (a standard action). If the eidolon is sent back to its home plane due to death, it cannot be summoned again until the following day. The eidolon cannot be sent back to its home plane by means of dispel magic, but spells such as dismissal and banishment work normally. If the summoner is unconscious, asleep, or killed, his eidolon is immediately banished.
The eidolon takes a form shaped by the summoner’s desires. The
This is where you are absolutely, 100%, flat out, wrong.
Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it.
See the word 'spell'? That is the part that the Eidolon ability fails at. The phrase "Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures" does not make the Eidolon ability a spell. Nothing about that phrase states that it is a spell. "Summoned creatures" does not mean spell in ANY way.
It is quite clear at this point that you are refusing to accept that this ability is not a spell despite the very simple fact that it in no way follows a spell format.
You have stated that because it does not state it is supernatural then it isn't but you continue to sidestep that there is no corresponding statement that states it is a spell.
Again, please show what it's spell level is. What spell slot is it taking?
SLOBlues, you were very adamant that this is not a supernatural ability because it did not state it was. Please show where this states it is a spell-like ability.
Example:
Summon Monster I (Sp): Starting at 1st level, a summoner can cast summon monster I as a spell-like ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.
I see no statement in the Eidolon ability that states it is a spell-like ability.
Either is it Supernatural because a Dev stated it is even though the ability did not state it OR it is neither Supernatural nor Spell-like because it does not state it is. You cannot have it both ways.
This is the rules forum, this is not the 'no other logical explanation' forum. Please cite the rule that states the Eidolon ability is a Spell-like ability.
Summary: The Eidolon ability is not listed as a Spell-like ability and it is not a spell so it is not subject to Augment Summoning. You continue to fail to show how it is a spell or a spell-like ability. Please quote the text that directly states it is a spell or a spell-like ability.
...
So is summoning the Eidolon a spell? Yes.Why? Simple. There is no other logical explanation for what the summoner is doing. The Summoner is an arcane user. There is no reference to any other ability or power. No faith, no god, no pact, no divine right, nothing. Just the Summoners arcane talents. The only thing people do with arcane talents to make 'magic' happen? Cast spells. There is no other logical explanation other than that the Summoner is casting a spell to summon the Eidolon.
Hence it is a summon spell and Augment Summoning applies.
Because the Summoner is an arcane user, every magical thing they do that isn't explicitly marked otherwise is a spell?
Yeah, no.
There is no reason why the Summoning ritual can't be a supernatural ability. There is, however, a very good reason why the Summoning ritual is not a spell-like ability. And that reason is because the people who wrote the damn class say so.
Summoning the eidolon is a supernatural ability... and it is not subject to Augment Summoning.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing