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I'm playing a Rogue 5/Shadowdancer 1 two weapon fighter build at the moment, and feeling rather outclassed by my comrades. The Paladin consistently heals the party and tanks and occasionally smites evil, the barbarian deals and absorbs ridiculous quantities of damage, the ranger can deal great damage from halfway across the map, the sorcerer uses haste and blazing immolation to own everything... and I can maybe get a sneak attack in every other round, occasionally deal 2, and usually then get hurt and have to hide at the back of the room until combat ends. In two shadowdancer levels I get a shade that deals strength damage, but that's a ways away...
I'd love some way to disable people without killing them - somehow immobilize them, handicap them, or disable them. Two maneuvers I like are a 1) throw a tangleroot bag or 2) cast Grease on their weapon using a wand, but the former is not super common, and the latter requires me to roll 9 or better on a UMD roll, and even then enemies seem to be making their DC11 Dex saves more often than not.
What else can I use to immobilize, disarm, blind, trip, nerf, or otherwise annoy my enemies? Poison is too slow and too expensive... Is there a feat tree or strategy that might help? I was looking at the improved ____ feats, but I'd need Combat Expertise and the feat that lets you use dex in your cmb first. My plan was to go Shadowdancer until level 4 to pick up the sweet abilities, then back to rogue. It's my first Pathfinder campaign (in fact my first rpg game ever), so I know my character isn't exactly optimized, but I'd appreciate advice.
PS: My character uses 2 magical short swords for close range and 2 hand crossbows for longer range attacks. He has a stat spread of 10 strength - 21 dexterity - 10 constitution - 14 intelligence - 10 wisdom - 14 charisma, and is quite the skill monkey out of combat. He has lots of skill points in disguise, bluff, stealth, and acrobatics. His feats are Dodge/Mobility (our DM combined them), Quick Draw (so I can get two crossbow shots, then when they come over to me whip out my short swords and get a full attack), Two Weapon Fighting, and Combat Mobility to be able to do shadowdancer. He's great at slipping to the enemy's back lines unnoticed.
If you have weapon finesse you can do a lot of maneuvers with the weapon without agile maneuvers and you get the weapon bonus on the maneuvers.
Trip, disarm and dirty trick are the normal ones, with some weapons grapple and reposition are possible. Maybe you want a reach weapon for that and specialize on one. Also your "friends" maybe want combat reflexes then.
In this group its probably not necessary to play another damage dealer that needs special conditions to deal damage. It´s a bad thing, especially when there was no group talk before about character concepts and so on. That is also why it is good to know where you are going with your character.
You should take a look at some rogue talents and archetypes.
Knife Master with underhanded seems to be a possibility for you. Sneak beind them and surprise them with maxed damage.
The shadowdancer thing might also not be the best idea.
You could either play a ninja or take ki pool and ninja trick vanish, or terrain mastery and hide in plain sight later for rogues.
If you are looking for ways to build from here, consider switching to saps and get the Sap Master feats. Huge damage boost and Non-Lethal damage works on most any being except undead. Also, go back to Rogue so you get more Sneak Attack. Also, you might want to look at Spring Attack, since you could be stealthy, attack from the shadows, and then return to them in one move. It should keep your character healthier, and you will not have to worry about too many full attacks.
Or you could take the offensive defense rogue talent to get more AC.
If you are looking for ways to build from here, consider switching to saps and get the Sap Master feats. Huge damage boost and Non-Lethal damage works on most any being except undead. Also, go back to Rogue so you get more Sneak Attack. Also, you might want to look at Spring Attack, since you could be stealthy, attack from the shadows, and then return to them in one move. It should keep your character healthier, and you will not have to worry about too many full attacks.
Psst, hey. If you're going to go down the nonlethal route for sap adept and sap master, then you can take enforcer (which allows you to make enemies shaken for a number of turns equal to damage dealt), and then take the thug archetype to frighten enemies for a turn if you're able to shaken them for 6 turns (easy as pie with enforcer).
Frightened enemies run away as if their life depended on it, and they don't attack. Hows that for messing with the ability of an enemy to contribute to a fight? Imagine doing it to the big bad dragon or suchlike.
prototype00
I'll second the trip idea, it is really one of the only combat maneuvers consistently worth doing, though it isn't looking like you have a lot of room for feats. I like the spring attack option since you might as well finish off that chain anyway. What about picking up exotic weapon proficiency (net), lots of good things going on there even without the UC net feats.
It sounds like you have enough damage in the party, so it is cool that you are thinking outside the box. Trip and disarm is great. Swordbreaker Dagger is nice for the disarm and/or sunder. Sap route is nice, but man I hate the cheese associated with that.
Query: What cheese? The ability works exactly as it says on the tin.
Just trying to understand your point of view.
prototype00
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Where does the cheese come from? Simple, nonlethal damage a something that should be a situation attack. Not something that is picked just become some badly designed feats make them powerful.
Look, I understand the whole minmax thing, but sometimes as a GM it annoys me and feels like cheese. There is no logic on the planet to me that says that you should be able to DOUBLE your sneak attack damage just because you are using a blunt weapon as nonlethal damage. If it was a +1d6 for Sap Adept and another +1d6 for Sap master, I'm okay with it. Not starting out at +3d6+3 for Master and going up from there. Don't like it.
Mind you I am not a huge fan of a lot of minmax stuff [Arcane Mark/Spell Combat & AM Barbarian, etc.] Guess I am lucky that I run with a group of people that don't think of things like that.
I'm playing a Rogue 5/Shadowdancer 1 two weapon fighter build at the moment, and feeling rather outclassed by my comrades. The Paladin consistently heals the party and tanks and occasionally smites evil, the barbarian deals and absorbs ridiculous quantities of damage, the ranger can deal great damage from halfway across the map, the sorcerer uses haste and blazing immolation to own everything... and I can maybe get a sneak attack in every other round, occasionally deal 2, and usually then get hurt and have to hide at the back of the room until combat ends. In two shadowdancer levels I get a shade that deals strength damage, but that's a ways away...
1st, as you mentioned you have lots of Acrobatics and Mobility, you should be getting in sneak attack A LOT, because you should be able to maneuver to stay in flanking position very easily.
Second, if you're getting hit a lot, you need to boost your AC. I've seen a shadowdancer played very effectively, but they were nearly impossible to hit. Sounds like you want to do some cool stuff in relatively close range so definitely work on that.
I'd love some way to disable people without killing them - somehow immobilize them, handicap them, or disable them. Two maneuvers I like are a 1) throw a tangleroot bag or 2) cast Grease on their weapon using a wand, but the former is not super common, and the latter requires me to roll 9 or better on a UMD roll, and even then enemies seem to be making their DC11 Dex saves more often than not.
If you keep leveling as a rogue, and you really like grease, consider minor magic and major magic rogue talents. You'll only get to cast grease once per day, but it will be much more reliably in your arsenal.
If you keep leveling as a shadowdancer, work on disorienting your foes when you get shadow jump (though be aware that's a move action), using your shadow companion to harry foes, and shadow illusion to confuse foes. I know you said you're stopping at 4 but higher levels can improve those tricks and give you other ones (shadow evocation is nice) -- BUT there's a also a lot of reasons to go back to leveling rogue, so follow your instincts.
What else can I use to immobilize, disarm, blind, trip, nerf, or otherwise annoy my enemies? Poison is too slow and too expensive... Is there a feat tree or strategy that might help? I was looking at the improved ____ feats, but I'd need Combat Expertise and the feat that lets you use dex in your cmb first.
Sounds like you've got a plan -- remember you can also use rogue talents to take a combat feat once, which will help you get up that feat tree a little faster. (What rogue talents do you have so far? Besides fast stealth there aren't a lot that scream must have for a shadowdancer, so I'm curious what you've taken so far).
Immobilize -- beads of force if you can find them, grappling (probably not for your build).
Disarm/Trip -- As everyone else has mentioned, this is a good way to go. Maybe think about getting a trip weapon for one of your weapons to use if you want to go this route.
Blind/Nerf -- Dirty Trick. Read all about it in the APG.
Also, remember --- while it's not ideal, you can always do any combat maneuver without feats. You will often provoke AOOs, and you have to choose your foes wisely lest they have a huge CMD, but it is possible for you to disarm/trip/dirty trick/steal/grab/overrun, etc. right now as you're built. So what I'd prioritize FIRST is getting your Agile Maneuvers to boost your CMB and then work on getting whatever style feats float your boat.
You've already got a lot of feats to take, but another possibility is taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Whip, which allows you to use a disarm and trip weapon at some degree of range (and since you've got quick draw, you can switch hit between that and your other weapons pretty easily). That may not be ideal, but it's a possibility.
Where does the cheese come from? Simple, nonlethal damage a something that should be a situation attack. Not something that is picked just become some badly designed feats make them powerful.
Look, I understand the whole minmax thing, but sometimes as a GM it annoys me and feels like cheese. There is no logic on the planet to me that says that you should be able to DOUBLE your sneak attack damage just because you are using a blunt weapon as nonlethal damage. If it was a +1d6 for Sap Adept and another +1d6 for Sap master, I'm okay with it. Not starting out at +3d6+3 for Master and going up from there. Don't like it.
Mind you I am not a huge fan of a lot of minmax stuff [Arcane Mark/Spell Combat & AM Barbarian, etc.] Guess I am lucky that I run with a group of people that don't think of things like that.
Ah, right. Fair enough. I personally thought that it was a nice, conditinal boost to what was otherwise a bottom tier class, but vive la difference.
prototype00
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Tanglefoot bags are really a good idea. If they're not available that often you could take a few ranks in craft(alchemy) and make your own. You mentioned you usually manage to set up flanks and get behind enemies frequently, so bear traps are a fun option. Actually looking into traps in general could be an option depending on your rogue talent choices.
What just came to my mind, with high CHA and many skill points, put some ranks in intimidate and get weapon focus - dazzling display.
That´s an all times available debuff of -2.
Some rogue talents and the ninja trick pressure points hamper or debuff oponents also on dealing sneak attack damage.
If you want to hit better and deal more damage, if you happen to hace darkvision or low light vision, take the moonlight stalker feats.
A reach weapon with the trip abilityis also very effective.
Look at the whip mastery feats, whips are also finessable.
You could perform a dirty trick maneuver blind from 15' away getting your DEX on it because of weapon finesse and all the weapon boni, including weapon focus.
Equipment trick rope lets you use rope as a whip and entangle foes with it too.
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Thanks for all the advice, everyone.
I've taken Weapon Finesse and Fast Stealth as my Rogue feats so far. I think I like the idea of using a whip and specializing in trip maneuvers the best. My character's background is that he grew up in a circus (thus high acrobatics, sleight of hand, charisma, etc.), so I can say he was inspired by memories of the lion tamer using a whip to control beasts larger and more dangerous than him.
I think I'll try to pick up a magical whip when we get to the metropolis we're heading towards. Next level I get a feat - I'll pick up weapon mastery: whip. At level 8, Shadowdancer gets a rogue feat; I can choose combat feat and get combat expertise. The level after I can get improved trip, then two levels later greater trip, then maybe some whip feats. (If I'm lucky, and if the DM feels sorry for me, maybe I'll get him to accept Combat Reflexes instead of Combat Expertise as the prerequisite for getting the Improved tricks.
The way I see it, combat will start to look something like this: I'll remain stealthed as the battle starts, and sneak towards the squishiest enemy. I'll get a sneak attack or two on him, then I can start using acrobatics to start jumping around and get flanking sneak attacks. When I start getting low on HP, I'll start dancing out of people's range and using the whip to trip them.
What do you guys think? Thanks again for the advice!
PS: I think if I were to redo this character, I'd drop the TWF aspect entirely - go with the whip from the start, and maybe give him a rapier for sneak attacks.
PPS: What are the rules for making sneak attacks with a whip? What if it's a scorpion whip, which can deal lethal damage?
With the whip mastery feat you can deal normal damage witha whip, but you need weapon focus before. Improved whip mastery lets you threaten 10'.
Since a whip has 15' reach, you won´t get an AoO so easy, thus you could either skip or take the combat expertise -improved and greater trip later.
The interesting is then Combat reflexes with greater trip, what gives you 2 AoO´s essentially.
Whips deal normal sneak attack damage.
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Is your shadow getting a lot of play? Strength drain is a powerful weapon. The best way of becoming relevant in combat otherwise is to take levels of fighter, ranger or barbarian. To be perfectly honest, if the APG is available, tell the DM you're not happy with your character and ask if you can rebuild to urban ranger. You can have the same kind of two-weapon fighting character with nearly the same number of skill points and full BAB instead of 3/4; you'll also be able to pull off nearly the entire feat chain with only 15 dexterity, which means you can skip weapon finesse and have a higher strength.
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Maybe, but I'd rather not ask him for one - I try to finagle rules the most of anyone in our party (still not that much - mostly stuff like getting combat reflexes to count for combat expertise, like I said above), and he just gave me a second magical shortsword to help me out. I also just emailed him asking about the reflexes/expertise thing and whether or not I could spring attack to and from stealth, and he hasn't replied yet.
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Incidentally, any magical item suggestions? I'm considering getting my Mithril chainmail enchanted with a +1 bonus and the Shadow enchantment (+5 stealth) for 4750 GP total. Since I talked with my DM and it looks like I'll be getting Spring Attack for jumping to and from stealth, I'll be needing to make a lot of difficult stealth checks, and the +1 to AC should help a little.
Since I'll be getting Darkvision, I'd really love something that can create darkness. I could drop 4500 GP on a Wand of Darkness, but seeing as how I can still only make my UMD check between 1/2 and 1/3 of the time, and using it could blow my cover, I'm looking for other options.
Minor Magic is great for games heavy on sneaking and social intrigue. Being able to, without making any noise, cast Ghost Sound, dancing lights, or detect magic can really help with sneaks trying to steal or get past guards.
Am I correct that Minor Magic gives you ONE 0 level spell you can use 3 times a day? So you pick one and only one spell and are "stuck" with it for all eternity? I'm assuming so as there's no "how to get your daily spell" and it's a spell-like ability. I'd find it much more useful if I could alternate what I want each day, if not each use.
You pick ONE single spell. And you can then cast that SPECIFIC spell 3 times per day as a spell-like ability.
Take a level of wizard or magus if you want to change your cantrips every day (magus so you can wear armor too)
there is an easy way and a hard way to do this:
the easy way: be a lvl 20 ninja and deal up to 20 ability penalty to ability scores (10 without sap master).
the hard way: become a lvl 20 ninja
there are other ways but they are a lot less effective than dealing damage, like dirty tricks, crippling strike, mundane means etc.
OK, that's what I thought the PHB was saying, but every time someone mentions Minor Magic they list a half-dozen 0 level spells that would be useful, without actually saying you're limited to just one and can only take that specific rogue trick once.
Minor magic sucks a lot. There are spells a rogue could use, but the feat tax and time untill you get it is way too high and not so good.
Anyway im promoting the same as ever, as everyone else here.
If you already have combat reflexes counting as combat expertise go on moonlight stalker chain. Get a wand of blur or lesser cloak of displacement. TWF you probably have already. Swords of subtlety help a great deal too there. Plain enhancement is fine too.
Moonlight stalker feint ensures a SA as swift action, even nicer with greater feinting.
Moonlight stalker master increases miss chance 10%, with blur its then 30% on you, helps survive a great deal.
To deal ability damage you can take ninja trick pressure points rogue talent. 1 DEX or STR damage per SA is ok on low levels. With TWF it can be -2 in one round. Else you have to wait untill crippling strike.
Befuddling strike or offensive defense help you survive a lot too.
The rake archetype offers with bravados blade a nice boon: free action intimidating for 1d6 SA, deal less damage, but live longer. With a high intimidate skill you only need to do that every second or third round, intimidating them for -2 for several rounds.
UMD is a great great skill for rogues and ninjas, so many first level utility spells at a cheap price and second level for ok price. Grease is a rogues friend, you reflex save is your best. Also you can disarm with grease.
Hit and run tactics with spring attack are cool too with the shadowdancer, since you have hide in plain sight. A reach two-handed weapon with weapon focus and spear dancer is cool with this, because you can dazzle them for one round and give them other penalties with your SA like mentioned above.
Your build could look like this:
-combat reflexes (counting as combat expertise)
-dodge
-mobility
-spring attack
-moonlight stalker
-weapon focus (two handed reach weapon)
-spear dancer
-ninja trick pressure points and slow reactions are fine with this.
Or: (since you already have weapon finesse)
-combat reflexes (counting as combat expertise)
-dodge
-mobility
-moonlight stalker
-weapon focus (short swords)
-twf
-osiluth guile (while fighting defensively)
-offensive defense or befuddling srike, ninja trick pressure points, ki pool and ninja trick shadow clones suit you quite good here.
It seems a wee bit odd that you dislike the minor magic tree because of the feat tax and time until you get them, and then you promote a moonlight stalker master / TWF / Combat Reflexes / Improved Feint build.
I am quite interested in which ability lets you treat combat reflexes as combat expertise though. Ah, I just checked. Bending the rules.
Houserule of them for combat reflexes.
I praise moonlight stalker because its something you can use in almost all situations if you know how. Raises to hit and damage bonus, later a swift feint and then increased miss chance and free 5' step on miss.
Variations of this build grant a rogue more melee use and survivability.
You can also throw in gang-up and outflank if your team is willing.
Compared to that i just don´t see so many real good uses of minor magic and major magic. Its use is limited and level 0 spells 3 times a day, level 1 spells 2 times a day are not so appaling to me. Familiar is kind of meh too, flavorfull but meh at level 10.
Dispelling strike is kind of cool, but i just dont like the other 2 feats.
You are welcome to convinve me otherwise Cheapy, im always eager to learn something new.