I've noticed that your 'bonus spells' as a sorcerer come one level after you could normally take them.
My gut instinct was to choose a bloodline with bonus spells that I'd want on my list, i.e. Fireball. However Fireball is gained at 7th, one level after you gain 3rd level spells.
This leads me to wonder if you should pick a bloodline with spells you think are nice, but wouldn't normally choose. Meaning I could take fireball at 6th and at 7th I'd get another nice spell that wasn't on my 'must have' list.
Am I missing something here?
So what do people do?
So what do people do?
Play wizards.
Ok i now that this will probably start a flame war but i couldn't resist...
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When I GM I usually rule that if you get a free spell that you already had you can choose to go for another spell. It's kinda stupid that a fire dragon's descendant wouldn't choose to learn fireball just because he had some kind of a hint that he'd figure it out another way. So you can learn fireball at sixth, and then at seventh, when you'd get fireball, you can use it on another spell.
or take a bloodline where they give you must-have spells, but not First-choice spells. SO a bloodline full of spells that are second on your list of Sorc spells to take would be ideal. And spells not normally on the Sorc list are good additions too, cause you'd normally have to umd them to cast em.
Truthfully I houserule it up too (like TriOmegaZero does) -- it doesn't make sense to me that at sixth level an oracle has 3 spells known plus two revelations, and twice as many skill points as the sorcerer (in addition to the powers they get from their 'curse') and the sorcerer only has a single spell known, less BAB, less hit points and no armor or weapon skills.
It's astounding that we're effectively in the 3rd edition of 3rd edition and sorcerers still have a nerfed spell progression...
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Meh, I'm happy with nerf'd spell prog. My sorcerer is nothing like a wizard. His mentality towards magic, magic source, and use of magic is nothing like a wizard. He does not learn, he discovers and masters. At 3rd level, his 3d4+3 burning hands up to like 7 times at 3rd level were great rather than lets say a wizard using scorching ray at 4d6 however many times he prepared it.
The sorcerer is simply a different class, and shouldn't be seen as another flavor of the Wizard, it has it's own value.
There are more than one good spell at every level. If you want fireball as a 3rd level spell but you get it as a bloodline spell, then pick a different spell at 6th level. Stinking Cloud or Haste are excellent options, even if you like blasting. It's really not that difficult.
I don't think this is supposed to be a "why is the sorcerer worth playing" thread, but I'd like to add that I love playing sorcerers and would never switch to playing a wizard. The preparation casting system is just too restrictive for me, even compared to the limited spells known system. What if you don't abuse divination enough and end up preparing a spell that won't get used that day? Sorcerers never have this problem.
EDIT: As far as why the Oracle gets better stuff, you might as well ask why the cleric gets better stuff than the wizard. It could be because the sorcerer/wizard spell list is better in general.
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Meh, I'm happy with nerf'd spell prog. My sorcerer is nothing like a wizard. His mentality towards magic, magic source, and use of magic is nothing like a wizard. He does not learn, he discovers and masters. At 3rd level, his 3d4+3 burning hands up to like 7 times at 3rd level were great rather than lets say a wizard using scorching ray at 4d6 however many times he prepared it.
The sorcerer is simply a different class, and shouldn't be seen as another flavor of the Wizard, it has it's own value.
So you'd rather your sorcerer be within 15 feet maximum of your enemies while dealing an average of 10.5 damage with a save for half, versus having the option for the exact same spell plus the option to chuck an average of 14 damage with no save from a distance? O.o
One of the biggest things that bugs me about sorcerers' nerfed spell progression is not only do they take longer to gear up (which means through most levels wizards meet + beat them in terms of both spells per day and spell level), but they also get hurt heavily on metamagic. Being a level behind means waiting for worthwhile metamagics longer too; which does not really combo very nicely with their requisite of using a full-round casting to get their metaspells off.
At 4th level, by the time the sorcerer has 6 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells, the specialist wizard has 5 1st level spells and 3 2nd level spells, giving the sorcerer a slight advantage as he just catches up to the wizard who was just out-casting him at 3rd level, when the wizard was sporting 3 1st level spells and 2 2nd level spells versus the sorcerers 5 1st level spells. When you consider that the additional spell level gets bonus spells to, the wizard gets +2 bonus spells (1st and 2nd) at 3rd level where the sorcerer only gets +1 with the same ability; putting the 3rd level wizard at a total of 7 spells per day versus the sorcerer's 6 (and the wizard has more juice).
When you add in scrolls, pearls, and so forth it just slips further into the wizard's favor. A single pearl of each level turns a wizard into a pseudo-spontaneous caster, and more is just gravy. Plus there's the menmonic enhancer cheese, which allows you to craft a wand of mnemonic enhancer to get charges spent x 3 spell levels that you can cast per day. Want to cast an extra 9th level spell? Burn 3 charges from your wand. It's a pretty good trick for marathon games too. Assuming you crafted the wand yourself, that sets the price at 70 gp / spell level. Not a bad trick, especially since you can cast it a few times and then prepare those spells on the go.
Mnemonic Enhancer is also pretty good if you want to use strategies like magic missile spamming. Burn 1 4th level spell slot to produce 3 1st level spell slots. Not a particularly bad deal, especially if you're a fan of lesser metamagic rods, or enjoy your 5d4+5 unavoidable anti-caster direct damage spells that inflict around 17.5 damage per pop (25 maximized). That's before we consider stuff like the Book of Harms which allows you a free Maximize 1/day in exchange for taking 1d4 x spell level damage. Trade an average of 2.5 HP for 25 unavoidable damage? Yes please.
Most folks who sit firmly in the pro-sorcerer camp tend to argue that wizards might prepare the wrong spells and have problems. Rarely do they actually step back and admit that sorcerers might simply have the wrong spells to begin with and nothing they can really do about it. I mean, by 5th level alone, a wizard has at minimum 5 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, and 2 3rd level spells. That's before they get spells from other wizards, scrolls, or spell research. At 5th level, a sorcerer knows 6 spells period. 4 1st, 2 2nd. You'd better have picked the most generic and multi-functional spells you could find, because if your spell of choice won't work then you're a commoner with long fingernails.
Wizards are kind of like those guys who pack the condom in their wallet. It's better to have and not need than need and not have. At 5th level, the wizard might prep Wind Wall and Stinking Cloud. The stinking cloud he's almost assured to use, but the Wind Wall basically means if the party encounters a group of archers (say goblins shooting at them from a distance, like that scene in Lord of the Rings) the wizard just gets to waggle his fingers and tell them no. However, Wind Wall is not a spell most sorcerers would be keen on taking, since it is so very specific to just dealing with archers and such.
A 5th level conjurer, for example, might have wind wall, stinking cloud, and haste prepared (giving him a party buff, an AoE debuff/battlefield control, and a game ender vs archers); then prepares his 2nd and 1st level spells with "endurance" spells like magic missile and flaming sphere that he can happily spam about without using up his "big guns". Plus he might also have a variety of useful things like a scroll of knock for those times when you need a door opened right now (maybe you're in an Idiana Jones situation and there's a bigass boulder coming down the hill at you and your resident lockpicker or doorkicker doesn't have time to get the door open, or you come across a door that's barred from the other side).
As someone who legitimately enjoys playing wizards (while having played sorcerers as well), I must say that I think asking for an un-nerfed spell progression is the least of what sorcerers could request.
Sorry. If you took a spell early that's on your bloodline list, you can wait until an even level of fourth or higher to switch it out. Otherwise you can just wait until your bloodline provides it.
I.e., there is a mechanism in place to handle this 'difficulty.'
And I, for one, am tired of hearing members of a class that gets @ 150% spells-per-day casting over wizards' complain about being a single freakin' level behind wizards on learning a new level of spells...
Srsly.
I play both wizards and sorcerers. Both have good points and points not so good: they represent mildly different approaches to magic. If you don't like an aspect of the class SO much, don't play it. But don't keep asserting that one class "deserves" the advantages of the other.
Sorry. If you took a spell early that's on your bloodline list, you can wait until an even level of fourth or higher to switch it out. Otherwise you can just wait until your bloodline provides it.
I.e., there is a mechanism in place to handle this 'difficulty.'
And I, for one, am tired of hearing members of a class that gets @ 150% spells-per-day casting over wizards' complain about being a single freakin' level behind wizards on learning a new level of spells...
Srsly.
I play both wizards and sorcerers. Both have good points and points not so good: they represent mildly different approaches to magic. If you don't like an aspect of the class SO much, don't play it. But don't keep asserting that one class "deserves" the advantages of the other.
Yeah... the extra spell per day that a sorcerer can cast over a specialist wizard doesn't justify slower spell progression as well as a tiny spells known list. What I'm tired of is people trying to justify poor design choices in the guise of balance.
The extra casting abilities of the sorcerer are constantly being overwhelmed by wizard options; the arcane focus allowing an extra, spontaneous casting of a spell, the mnemonic enhancer spell, and pearls of power demonstrate that, with a little forethought and gold, a wizard can outcast a sorcerer, easily.
The sad fact is, most of the complaints about sorcerers are accurate. The only advantages a sorcerer has over a wizard is the extra spells per day and the supposed benefits of spontaneous casting. The wizard can match and exceed that with a little work. And when it comes to having the right spell at the right time, the sorcerer has no real advantage, because while he doesn't have to memorize, he's stuck with whatever he picks, and fireballs don't solve every problem.
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Sorry. If you took a spell early that's on your bloodline list, you can wait until an even level of fourth or higher to switch it out. Otherwise you can just wait until your bloodline provides it.
I.e., there is a mechanism in place to handle this 'difficulty.'
And I, for one, am tired of hearing members of a class that gets @ 150% spells-per-day casting over wizards' complain about being a single freakin' level behind wizards on learning a new level of spells...
Srsly.
I play both wizards and sorcerers. Both have good points and points not so good: they represent mildly different approaches to magic. If you don't like an aspect of the class SO much, don't play it. But don't keep asserting that one class "deserves" the advantages of the other.
Yeah... the extra spell per day that a sorcerer can cast over a specialist wizard doesn't justify slower spell progression as well as a tiny spells known list. What I'm tired of is people trying to justify poor design choices in the guise of balance.
The extra casting abilities of the sorcerer are constantly being overwhelmed by wizard options; the arcane focus allowing an extra, spontaneous casting of a spell, the mnemonic enhancer spell, and pearls of power demonstrate that, with a little forethought and gold, a wizard can outcast a sorcerer, easily.
The sad fact is, most of the complaints about sorcerers are accurate. The only advantages a sorcerer has over a wizard is the extra spells per day and the supposed benefits of spontaneous casting. The wizard can match and exceed that with a little work. And when it comes to having the right spell at the right time, the sorcerer has no real advantage, because while he doesn't have to memorize, he's stuck with whatever he picks, and fireballs don't solve every problem.
The Magus in my Kingmaker game would strenuously disagree with the bolded point. ;-) I mean, he'd be wrong as a recent encounter with a piscodaemon showed, but, he's still argue vigorously.
You plan. I have my spells planned about 5 or 6 levels ahead.
I took Arcane bloodline (and Human obviously).
Sure it kinda sucked to have to wait another level to get Invisibility but Pyrotechnics was a great, and flexible, spell anyway.
This is another thing that bugs me, and demonstrates there is a problem. Since the human alternate favored class feature has emerged, there really is no reason to be anything except a human sorcerer. It makes that much of a difference. That implies to me that the class is starving as it is. The wizard gets the same option, but most folks go "meh, that's cool, but I might still want the HP/Skills/Other-Race". The human-sorcerer is pretty much the only option to take now that it's available.
That speaks volumes.
...
And I, for one, am tired of hearing members of a class that gets @ 150% spells-per-day casting over wizards' complain about being a single freakin' level behind wizards on learning a new level of spells...
Srsly.
I play both wizards and sorcerers. Both have good points and points not so good: they represent mildly different approaches to magic. If you don't like an aspect of the class SO much, don't play it. But don't keep asserting that one class "deserves" the advantages of the other.
I agree both sorcerers and wizards can be fun, but that 150% number isn't strictly true, is it?
I also agree with the OP. The way the bonus spells are handed out doesn't make huge sense. I'd houserule that if the player took a bloodline spell a level early he could take a different bonus when the bloodline spell would normally be added.
If you're looking at the 20th level line for both classes, 6/day vs. 4/day=150% all the way across the board.
I.e., sorcerers get a maximum of 6 spells/day at any given spell level, where wizards get 4 spells/day. I wasn't comparing intermediate levels, rather the final potential. Not up to/interested in level-by-level comparison. I've never had any problem playing with either class. Find the complaints about sorcerers being nerfed by their progression disingenuous, to say the least. I typically have more trouble shepherding my low-level wizards to 4th level spell access than I do with my low-level sorcerers. YMMV, but handwaving the even-level spell gain for sorcerers isn't the way to "fix" the "problem."
If you're looking at the 20th level line for both classes, 6/day vs. 4/day=150% all the way across the board.
I.e., sorcerers get a maximum of 6 spells/day at any given spell level, where wizards get 4 spells/day. I wasn't comparing intermediate levels, rather the final potential. Not up to/interested in level-by-level comparison. I've never had any problem playing with either class. Find the complaints about sorcerers being nerfed by their progression disingenuous, to say the least. I typically have more trouble shepherding my low-level wizards to 4th level spell access than I do with my low-level sorcerers. YMMV, but handwaving the even-level spell gain for sorcerers isn't the way to "fix" the "problem."
Most people don't spend a lot of time at 20th level. And specialized wizards get an extra spell of every level they can cast. Most wizard players specialize. That gives them 5 per level.
Am I missing something here?
People play Sorcerers as much for the Bloodline powers and abilities as anything else. Sorcerer -> Dragon Disciple can make a pretty wicked tank mage.
Full spontaneous spell casters just need spell level progression on par with the prepared ones, and problem solved.
This. I rarely play straight sorcerers because the class doesn't quite do it for me. On a mechanical level that is.
Bumping the spell progression to be the same as a wizard would help alot.
And getting the bonus spells on the same level as an Oracle.
Job done.
Sorcerers need help? Aren't they the ones that get 6 spells of EVERY level at 20 with no limits save for what they know, while a Wizard only gets 5 of every level at 20, one of each level is somewhat limited on casting? Also seems like Sorcerers get more extra stuff than wizards.
So, sure the level 15 Wizard has a HUGE spellbook, but he still needs to cast a spell in order to fly, unlike that level 15 sorcerer (heck, probably could do it at 10, that robe of arcane heritage is sweet.) Plus he doesn't get as much cool stuff. With that in mind, gettings spells 1 level behind wizards doesn't seem so bad.
My favorite thing about sorcerers is their absolute independence from anything else. Many of my sorcerer characters take Silent Spell and Still Spell to emphasize this point.
You could strip him naked, tie him up, gag him, and throw him in a dark hole and you know what you'd find there in the morning? A dark hole.
Have you seen the "How to Imprison a Sorcerer" thread? It was largely agreed that it couldn't be done without a great deal of effort and resources and that, ultimately, you just had to kill the dangerous ones outright.
EDIT: Sorry, I made a big mistake. You wouldn't even see the morning, much less a dark hole, as the sorcerer would have escaped and slit your throat in your sleep.
My favorite thing about sorcerers is their absolute independence from anything else. Many of my sorcerer characters take Silent Spell and Still Spell to emphasize this point.
You could strip him naked, tie him up, gag him, and throw him in a dark hole and you know what you'd find there in the morning? A dark hole.
Have you seen the "How to Imprison a Sorcerer" thread? It was largely agreed that it couldn't be done without a great deal of effort and resources and that, ultimately, you just had to kill the dangerous ones outright.
EDIT: Sorry, I made a big mistake. You wouldn't even see the morning, much less a dark hole, as the sorcerer would have escaped and slit your throat in your sleep.
Pathfinder has ensured imprisoning a sorcerer is easy as pie. Simply tying them up keeps them grappled/pinned using the tier's CMB + 20. The likelihood of you making the Concentration check to cast is abysmal, since the DC is 10 + CMB + spell level. While you may need no components at all, stilled, and silent, you can't even get off a cantrip with certainty. If an equal level opponent has tied you up, or some folks got together and used aid-another to tie you up proper, then you're pretty much screwed. And if your opponent tied you up while under the effects of true strike, good luck dude. A 1st level wizard with a -2 strength modifier could tie up a sorcerer with a minimum Concentration DC of 28 + spell level. 30 if his familiar aids.
The CMB +20 formula is for checks made to escape (such as escape artist), not for teleporting.
At worst it would be 10 + CMB (of the one doing the tying) + spell level.
At best, there is no DC and success is automatic since an inanimate object doesn't have a CMB score.
Matter of interpretation I suppose.
If it was as you say, than the aforementioned sorcerer jail thread would have been MUCH shorter indeed.
On the original question...
If you're making a Sorcerer, I think the best thing to do is first to figure out what your spells known will look like at the END of your level progression.
Yeah, I know reaching 20th level can be a pipe dream sometimes, but still.
This can let you avoid some spell-relearning issues; if you decide a higher-level version of something is better for what you want to be doing, don't take the low-level one, etc.
And this lets you look at the impact of your bloodline spells on your selections ahead of time. Is that spell you'll get anyway REALLY a "must-have" at the first level which you could cast it? Or is waiting for your bloodline to provide it going to be OK?
Finally, if you ARE going to take a bloodline spell early, this sort of "pre-leveling" look forward will let you PLAN your spell swaps so you don't get stuck for too long with a duplicate.
There is something to be said for choosing bloodlines that don't provide spells you know you want; that does depend on NOT wanting the bloodline powers that go with the bonus spell list, though. YMMV.
All this depends on how RAW your GM plays, natch. If the GM will ease up and let you make a swap when your bloodline duplicates an already-known spell, that's groovy. But depends on the fiat of your GM, so check with them. (Well, duh.)
Anyway, maybe this will be more helpful than my earlier rants. Apologies all round. (Was late, was tired, had just come from really irritating session with local representative for munchkindom... shouldn't take that out on posters here.)
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Matter of interpretation I suppose.
I suppose.
Tie Up : If you have your target pinned , otherwise restrained, or unconscious , you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD ). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin.
A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell.
Matter of interpretation I suppose.I suppose.
Tie Up : If you have your target pinned , otherwise restrained, or unconscious , you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD ). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin.A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell.
Pretty much. If there's anyone nearby that is even near your level, getting free will be a pain. The base DC is 10 + the binder's CMB. CMB is BAB + Str (or possible Dex) + other modifiers. Any buffs such as heroism, inspire courage, rage, true strike, aid another, enlarge person, and so forth can add to this as well. Even if a 5th level sorcerer with a 22 Charisma (yes I know that's very high for 5th level) was captured by a BBEG and tied up by the BBEG's level 1 warrior mooks, he could see DCs in the high teens. Assuming each warrior had a +2 CMB, a group of them could use aid another to hold you down and carefully set everything more or less perfectly. Say 10 mooks, which could set you up for a DC 30 + spell level easily enough. That would be a 10% chance to cast a spell without wasting it; and that's being bound by mooks.
If the BBEG really wanted you trapped, he'd have had his own mook mages tie you up. Enlarge person followed by true strike is a net +22 to tie your butt up. At 1st level. Oh yes, you will likely not get out of your bonds (CMD 40 or so) and you will have no luck casting (DC 32 + spell level Concentration check).
Of course, any BBEG who captures people is going to toss them in a cell with a cheap resetting trap. Something that interrupts resting. Maybe it's a create water trap, or a ghost sound trap, or even a mage hand trap. Just something to make it impossible to get your rest on unimpeded. That means that even if you don't need a spellbook (say spell mastery, sorcerer, or divine caster) you're still pretty much screwed. Plus if you break out, you'll be fatigued to exhausted from being denied that precious REM sleep. :P
There is something to be said for choosing bloodlines that don't provide spells you know you want; that does depend on NOT wanting the bloodline powers that go with the bonus spell list, though. YMMV.
There is something to be said about it being a poor idea to take spells themed for your sorcerer's theme, and being forced to wait even longer for your iconic spells. If you want a Necromancy sorcerer and don't want to waste your trade-out coupons ('cause you can only trade a few spells) then you definitely do not want to be an undead bloodline sorcerer (who must wait the latest out of all classes to get animate dead at 9th level, 2 levels after wizard, and 4 levels after cleric).
I wouldn't allow true strike to add to the DC, rules be damned. That's just too much.
Heheh. True strike is vicious for combat maneuvers. I've used 1st level mooks (such as kobold sorcerers) who use true strike and combat maneuvers to vicious effect. One trick that has been particularly nasty is kobold sorcerers who hide in tunnels along the walls, or behind cover such as barrels, who use true strike and reach weapons to preform combat maneuvers to trip, grapple (mancatcher), and so forth.
Since the addition of the "dirty trick" and "steal" combat maneuvers, such villains would be even nastier (particularly when using hit & run tactics). For example, a group of kobold sorcerers armed in masterwork studded leather armor and carrying a heavy shield have a very high AC (+1 size, +3 armor, +2 shield, +1 natural = 17 before dex) and can cast true strike without fail (no somatic components). So the sorcerers run in with longspears and true strike trip somebody (knocking them prone, -4 to hit, AC, and CMD). Then the other sorcerers gnab your items, and on the following round run away -- leaving a bewildered looking adventurer in their tracks.
Easy way to stop your sorcerer from casting continuous torture to keep you at negative hps. Cheap and low tech.
But still resource intensive. Having to give someone a day job as torturer can be quite costly in the long run.
But still resource intensive. Having to give someone a day job as torturer can be quite costly in the long run.Easy way to stop your sorcerer from casting continuous torture to keep you at negative hps. Cheap and low tech.
It's alot cheaper than some of the unique magic items proposed in the other thread.
A torturer is probably like a level 3 - 5 expert.
Level 1. 3-5 is overkill. Why do you need one of the strongest examples of humanity to beat a helpless person into submission? Best torturer is probably a 1st level adept, just because they could cast stabilize if they get a little too happy with their work.