Goblin Squad Member
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There's already a thread going about flight and how PFO should deal with it, and I think that means it's time to discuss another major mode of transport that most MMO's ignore: Water.
So, how should players be able to interact with, and travel on, water? Swimming, boats, water breathing, whole underwater towns/kingdoms? Playable aquatic races?
Maybe making a whole underwater area explorable is too much coding. At the very least, I'm hoping to be able to both swim across the surface of water, and be able to build/use boats; everything from rowboats to riverboats to smaller sailing schooners to gigantic merchant vessels to warships.
How to control boats? I think Minecraft has the right idea there. (Mind you, Mojang has done nothing to develop the boat since they made it, but at least they made one.) Boats both take time to get up to full speed, and take time to slow back down. Maximum turning speed is also limited; the boat can't just turn on a dime.
But what about boats for multiple people? Who would command the boat, deciding how fast it goes and when it should turn? Would the larger boats require multiple players to keep them going? What would those players be doing to help keep the boat moving? How should cargo in the boat work? Would boats just have a nebulous but working cargohold, like in EvE Online? Or would items stored in the boat actually show up, so sailors would see the crates of wood and bolts of cloth in the hold?
I'm just starting this off talking about boats, but what about everything else in the water? Fishing? Diving for wrecks? Water Breathing? Equipment getting wet? Storms? Attacks by sharks and aboleths? Other aquatic races? Underwater dungeons? Underwater towns? What would they look like, since gravity isn't as much of an issue? How about players being able to make their own underwater towns, ruling over them just like their landlubber kin? Or how about lashing together a set of boats to make a town?
Let me end this on a note to Goblinworks: I understand if you don't have the budget to code everything underwater; it can be a lot of work to get right, and most MMO's just skip underwater altogether (LOTRO, Warhammer) or just have a little underwater stuff without really exploring the possibilities (WoW; Vash'Jir is a nice effort, but they could have done more; they still thought too much in 2D, but maybe I need to read up on how underwater ecologies actually work.)
So please: If not right at launch, then at some point in the future, make traveling both on and under the waves a real possibility in PFO; everything from fishing on a rowboat in the river to exploring dungeons and ruins far below the surface.
So what about everyone else? What ideas do you have for water, both on it and under it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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My most fervent desire is that I will not be able to swim while wearing armor.
Aside from that, I would really like to be able to swim above and below water, and to build and use boats of all shapes and sizes.
I'm not a big fan of underwater zones or kingdoms, or of underwater breathing being commonplace. But it's not a big deal to me. Basically, any kind of "special atmosphere environment" always ends up with some way to counter the special atmosphere, at which point it's just another environment. But I'm kind of a "low-magic" fan, and I don't really expect that to be the style for PFO.
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Underwater breathing spell would allow exploration for a while, so long as one has mana(scrolls can't be used for obvious reasons). Having sunken ships or dungeon ruins is an awesome idea. It just needs to be implemented right.
Build air bells and such would be nice too. Of course how to build anything more complex and fill it with air is another story.(new cleric spell, create air)
But it should be done in a way that makes it hard to explore and spells and combat need to be taken into account too. (Fireball!...steamball? Only half dmg!)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I think that underwater exploration, combat, and construction is a great concept, but maybe not one for launch. I would have no problem with a very basic swimming system being used at launch, with no incentive or advantage to enter the water, if there were plans to fully implement underwater stuff by a soft deadline.
I'd like to see a fully-fleshed out system at launch, but there should be no compromises. Once a significant underwater mechanic exists, radical changes to it are wrong, even if the new version is better.
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Goblin Squad Member
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radical changes to it are wrong, even if the new version is better
Eh, depends. Sometimes a total rewrite can help, but I agree that, if they're going to do it at all, they should take the time to do it right.
Though I would like to see the underwater areas developed, I won't be surprised if it doesn't happen at launch. But at the very least, let us swim on the surface of water.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it might be more a matter of not pissing on (or off, depending what version of English you speak) your base. Once you have something established...the people who stick around do so because they like what they have. Adding to what they have, as long as it is not forced upon them (ie. new areas to explore), is always good for increasing your base...major rewrites of gameplay end up making your base mad and making your base leave...and that usually results in the worst negative word of mouth "advertising" possible. Not a good business model.
It makes no difference how good or how positive the changes Trammel or NGE made were...because the game was "wrecked" for the people who were there and happy with the way it was.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It makes no difference how good or how positive the changes Trammel or NGE made were...because the game was "wrecked" for the people who were there and happy with the way it was.
Amen, brother.
Sony made major mistake after major mistake:
1) Splitting the EverQuest player base.
2) Ramming the New Game Engine (NGE) and Combat Upgrade (CU) down everyone's throat in Star Wars Galaxies, even though it was exactly what the current player base didn't want.
3) Taking over Vanguard and then letting it languish in the hands of a microscopic developer team.
A lot of people said "Never again!" after #2. I loved Vanguard, and held on a lot longer than most, but when I finally did let go, I felt like something within me died, and I said "Never again!" to Sony.
When I first heard about PFO, and came to read that first blog post, I felt like something within me was reborn. I'm serious - I'm getting a little choked up about it typing this out.
Please, Ryan, Vic, Mark, Lisa, and everyone else involved, please stick to your guns and honor the spirit of the game you're telling us you're making for us.
Isn't there an underwater realm somewhere in the River Kingdoms? Not to mention the rivers being somewhat common in (duh) River Kingdoms.
It could be nice addition in expansion. With added water breathing potions as a source of revenue to alchemists.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At the very least, boats and fishing would be nice, and not too much harder to code than wagons and mining. You could even have encounters while fishing, like the other forms of gathering; as any Runescape player will attest, fishing tends to attract all kinds of unfriendly aquatic beasties.
At a bare minimum, if I get flamed and start to burn, allow the pool of water I'm standing in to provide some protection, and if I swim, to put it out...please? Environmental spells can be countered by using the environment in the table top, so should work in game as well. Otherwise, the water is nothing more than something to look at.