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I've been watching my slave, a Hobgoblin who fights unarmed. He can stun people with a strike. That would be a fun trick to have. Now I notice that the poor loser is stunned only briefly, not long enough to follow up with a barrage while taking advantage of his condition.
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However, if the opponent does something stupid and walks into a hit, then the chance comes up to deliver a barrage on the still-stunned victim.
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So if I train my reflexes to really take advantage of openings () and learn this unarmed combat style and stunning maneuver, I can turn small openings into ones the size of a barn and tear my enemies apart ().
Well there's this group of defensive elite which train their reflexes to not only exploit nearby openings, but quickly shift about the battlefield to take advantage of openings from enemies two or more paces away (). If I were to master this as well, I could effectively dominate an entire region, stunning anyone who gives an opening within a number of paces, and then annihilate them as they're still reeling.
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FEATS (6): Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Patrol
RESULT: 10-15' radius of threatening squares, used to deliver Stunning Fist via AoO. Follow up with full round SA.
FINISHING TOUCHES: Take the Dastardly Finish feat to CDG stunned enemies (when not threatened). Or take Opportunist talent to deliver the stun, and you don't even need for your enemy to mess up.
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Thoughts?
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My thoughts are that you should take Catch Off-Guard and keep a weird object as a weapon as well. Stunning also forces the opponent to drop held objects, which includes weapons, leaving them flat-footed against you if you use an improvised weapon.
The main problem I see with this build is that you'll need a good bit of wisdom to keep the stunning fist DC up, as many combatants have good fortitude saves. Ability Focus might work here, but that depends on whether the DM thinks it qualifies as a "special attack" and whether they allow bestiary feats. Unfortunately, unless you dip monk, wisdom doesn't do much for you *except* keep the DC up.
A secondary problem I see is that you only get 1 use of stunning fist per 4 levels (+1 with monk's robe) unless you have monk levels, in which case it goes up but your sneak attack goes down.
Having a friend who also causes stunning effects in various ways may help (see Color Spray, Sound Burst, etc). Color spray is especially nice because it is a will save (a weakness of many melee combatants, who are your primary target for Catch Off-Guard), and works for 1 round no matter their HD (which is all you need to effectively disarm them).
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I'm not sure that this build actually mechanically works.
Stunning Fist from the srd:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn).
Because of that last entry there, just before your next turn, the opponent who was stunned on an aoo will no longer be stunned when you start your turn.
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I'm not sure that this build actually mechanically works.
Stunning Fist from the srd:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn).Because of that last entry there, just before your next turn, the opponent who was stunned on an aoo will no longer be stunned when you start your turn.
Good catch. This basically means this strategy won't work for the rogue unaided.
However, stunning them to get them to drop their weapon, then using Catch Off-Guard's "unarmed opponents are flat-footed against your improvised weapons" clause would still be possible, though against a limited set of opponents.
The best strategy is to get an ally to cast a spell that stuns (or some other ability, I suppose), then take advantage of that state. Color Spray is a very good low-level option (that stays at least minimally useful at high levels), with Sound Burst being a decent AoE option (more chances that at least one opponent is stunned). Good spell selection between any casters in the group can help you out tremendously.
just to add to the death-zone concept for an unarmed strike, take a look at the feats knock-out artist, sap adept and sap mastery. then deal nonlethal unarmed damage. +2 damage per sneak attack die from Knockout artist, another +2 damage per die from sap adept, and roll the sneak attack dice twice and combine them for sap mastery (note that these don't count as extra sneak attack dice, and thus don't count for sap adept and knockout artist.)
a human can have these plus improved unarmed strike by 5th level, dealing 1d3+str+6d6+12 damage on a sneak attack. average damage is 35+str on a hit. so yes, an unarmed rogue can definately pack a serious punch (pun intended).
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True, but sap adept only works when you deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, and sap master only works against a flat-footed target. Knockout artist requires the target to be denied their dexterity bonus.
This particular combo is usually done via enforcer, weapon focus, dazzling display, and shatter defenses. It's pretty feat intensive if you want to do it more than during the surprise round of combat.
Boar style can kick 2d6 more in while monastic training can increase your unarmed attack die size if you took a handful of monk levels. Say for master of many forms? ;p
I only skimmed, but it seems you use a full round action to just get one attack via Patrol to stun them? Isn't it better to start a full attack with a stunning fist, and have the rest of the flurry be against a stunned opponent? Then stun them again at the beginning of your next flurry? You get a lot more attacks this way.
Fueldrop, where is the text that says sap master dice don't count as sneak attack dice? Because that interpretation is not what I am getting at all.
Fueldrop, where is the text that says sap master dice don't count as sneak attack dice? Because that interpretation is not what I am getting at all.
i was erring on the side of caution. less chance of getting the entire post ignored on a single tecnicality that way.
Combat Patrol doesn´t work because you need a full round action to do it and then can´t use dastardly finish before the stun wears off anymore.
Let your slave stun them and use dastardly finish then.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn).
I agree that delivering a stunning fist on your turn ends just before your next turn.
But doesn't a stunning fist delivered by an AoO (someone else's turn) last until the same initiative of the person you just stunned? And in that case, you get your turn during that duration of stun?
I think the biggest problem by far is the limited number of uses of stunning fist.
If you aren't going monk, you are looking at 1/day by level 7 and maxing out at 5/day at level 20...
The only way you can make a build around an ability is if you can use it with some regularity. I can't see having enough levels of monk to get a lot of uses and also having enough levels of rogue for Sneak Attack to stay relevant, personally.
If you could find a way to get around that, it is a very cool idea.
I dont think the low amount of stunning fists will be that big of an issue. Keep in mind that this tactic requires that an AoO be provoked. Unless your in an odd scripted fight or have an opponent hell bent on someone's destruction who ISN'T you, it wont happen terribly often
Asta
PSY
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Take Crane style and Crane wing, when they attack you (and hit) counterattack with stunning fist. Since you then get to go before they go again, full attack a stunned opponent or coup de grace them using dastardly finish.
No need to waste a perfectly good full round action on combat patrol.
prototype00
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I'm not sure that this build actually mechanically works.
Stunning Fist from the srd:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn).Because of that last entry there, just before your next turn, the opponent who was stunned on an aoo will no longer be stunned when you start your turn.
So which is it? One round, or until your next turn? These two terms, "1 round" and "until just before your next turn" are suddenly in conflict when the stun is delivered on an attack of opportunity.
What if the opponent you stun with an AoO acted just before you and you stun them when they provoke? Then the stun hardly is lasting one round.
I propose that the "just before" bit is so that the person delivering the stunning fist can't exploit one successful stun unfairly. For example, if that text wasn't there, many would be arguing that the stun lasts until AFTER their next turn, which is exploitation.
The description is very clear.
The defender loses one round (or equivalent actions) and the effect ends just before your next turn. A stunning fist via AOO ist the worst choice because the enemey is only stunned a partial round and only loses some actions. The ending condition is very clear so there is no room for discussion.
Forget the "1 round" and read it in this way:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned until just before your next turn.
Forget the "1 round" and read it in this way:
A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned until just before your next turn.
You can't look at only one part of the description and ignore the other part.
At any rate, I've asked the question of James Jacob and we'll see what he has to say. (As an impartial outside observer)
prototype00
"stunned until just before your next turn"
Monk at my table: "I DELAY UNTIL COMBAT ENDS!"
Ah, well it seems that according to JJ, the enemy is only stunned until the beginning of your turn and not a whole round. I concede the rightness of your stipulation.
prototype00