Ninja + Rogue Archetypes

[Khrysaor]

Obviously a ninja is a rogue archetype but can other archetypes be applied to the ninja that affect uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge? They are gained at the same levels for both ninja and rogue and some archetypes only affect those abilities.

EDIT: Bandit, Burglar, Santified Rogue, Scout, Trapsmith.

I would guess as per the archetype rules that this is possible but I don't know if the community agrees.

[Maxximilius]

Alternate classes are glorified class archetypes. If you get the same features with both the original and alternate class, then in either case you can take an archetype that changes them. You couldn't take an archetype that changes Trapfinding though for example, by RAW.

[Khrysaor]

Ya I know. It's only applicable to the ones I listed in my edit but I was just wondering if I could do so since the ninja is considered a rogue alternate class and didn't know if it fell into the archetype rules.

So I can be a Ninja(Bandit,Burglar,Sanctified,Scout,Trapsmith). One of those in the parentheses anyway. Makes sense just wanted community support.

EDIT: Just lets me play around with more ideas since I don't want to be bound to just what the ninja entails.

[blackbloodtroll]

This class archetype was created because some people believe they can't be a ninja, without it saying ninja on their character sheet under class. These same people cannot fathom the idea that Conan, if stated out, would be a fighter.
Sorry for the rant.
Yes, as long as the archetype does not replace an ability that is already replaced, changed, or no longer exists.

[Cheapy]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This class archetype was created because some people believe they can't be a ninja, without it saying ninja on their character sheet under class. These same people cannot fathom the idea that Conan, if stated out, would be a fighter.

Sorry for the rant.
Yes, as long as the archetype does not replace an ability that is already replaced, changed, or no longer exists.

I believe it was to fix issues with the rogue.

[blackbloodtroll]

Cheapy wrote:

blackbloodtroll wrote:

This class archetype was created because some people believe they can't be a ninja, without it saying ninja on their character sheet under class. These same people cannot fathom the idea that Conan, if stated out, would be a fighter.

Sorry for the rant.
Yes, as long as the archetype does not replace an ability that is already replaced, changed, or no longer exists.

I believe it was to fix issues with the rogue.

In what context? I really don't see anything that a "ninja" can do, that a rogue cannot.

[Cheapy]

Go Invisible, for one. But, I've derailed enough threads today.

[Maxximilius]

Becoming invisible.
Attacking once more per round.

[Writer]

I'd leave it up to your DM; because that's ultimately the final authority in your games (unless your doing PFS). I play a Ninja who swapped out the nigh useless No Trace and situational Poisen Use for Trapfinding and Trapsense. It certianly fits my character concept better.

[blackbloodtroll]

Cheapy wrote:

Go Invisible, for one. But, I've derailed enough threads today.

Major magic + Vanish.

I can do this for days. That's not a challenge, I am just saying.

[Cheapy]

Nah, you can do that twice per day as a standard action after spending two expensive, non-replenishable limited resources on it.

[Blue Star]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Go Invisible, for one. But, I've derailed enough threads today.

Major magic + Vanish.

I can do this for days. That's not a challenge, I am just saying.

You can do it twice a day at level 4, it never scales up, a ninja can become invisible 1/2 level+cha mod times a day. The ninja can also run on air, if you take the talent, something the rogue will never be able to do.

[blackbloodtroll]

Remember, rogues can also take ninja tricks. I will end this, but any player can have a ninja character, without having to take levels in the "ninja" class. No one should ever be limited by the name of his/her class.

[Blue Star]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Remember, rogues can also take ninja tricks. I will end this, but any player can have a ninja character, without having to take levels in the "ninja" class. No one should ever be limited by the name of his/her class.

Unbound steps is a master trick that is dependent upon Light Steps, a ninja-only class ability. Also, I don't think they get access to master tricks, they split up the rogue talents, so why wouldn't they split up the ninja tricks? Which means there is a lot a ninja can do that the rogue can't.

[Ian Eastmond]

You cannot multiclass Ninja/Rogue, just like you cannot multiclass Paladin/Antipaladin or Cavalier/Samurai. They are alternate classes.

Per RAW, if your GM allows it I don't see why you couldn't houserule it, but they weren't meant to be taken together.

[Khrysaor]

*sigh*

No need to argue. It's the flavor of the class and the archetypes. A rogue can pull off being a ninja with the talents but will only be subpar to what the actual archetype offers. This will work both ways. I'm not arguing which is better. I was thinking of playing a ninja because I like the class abilities like no trace and poison use. This means I won't have to spend feats/talents/skills to try to mimic the things I like from the class. I just wanted to know if, as a ninja, you still qualify for rogue archetypes that affect uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge since those are overlapping in the rogue and the ninja?

And this isn't a 'can I multiclass rogue/ninja' thread. There's already been one of those and we know that ninja is the rogue alternate class and cannot be a multiclass.

EDIT:since there is no ninja archetypes I thought, by design, the rogue archetypes would be applicable as long as the skills overlapped.

[Interzone]

By RAW, no, as ninja =/= rogue.
But it seems like a very reasonable and good house rule, I know I would certainly allow it.

[Khrysaor]

Interzone wrote:

By RAW, no, as ninja =/= rogue.

But it seems like a very reasonable and good house rule, I know I would certainly allow it.

That's what I figured the RAW was on this. Guess I'm just gonna wait for ninja archetypes if I can't convince my GM to allow this in our upcoming campaign.

[prototype00]

Khrysaor wrote:

Interzone wrote:

By RAW, no, as ninja =/= rogue.

But it seems like a very reasonable and good house rule, I know I would certainly allow it.

That's what I figured the RAW was on this. Guess I'm just gonna wait for ninja archetypes if I can't convince my GM to allow this in our upcoming campaign.

I recall James Jacobs saying that ninja was just another rogue archetype, but I forget what thread that was in.

prototype00

[Maxximilius]

Khrysaor wrote:

Interzone wrote:

By RAW, no, as ninja =/= rogue.

But it seems like a very reasonable and good house rule, I know I would certainly allow it.

That's what I figured the RAW was on this. Guess I'm just gonna wait for ninja archetypes if I can't convince my GM to allow this in our upcoming campaign.

"An alternate class operates exactly as a base class, save that a character who takes a level in an alternate class can never take a level in its associated class—a samurai cannot also be a cavalier, and vice versa."

Thus : ninja levels = rogue levels ; identical ninja class features = identical rogue class features.
Alternate classes are heavy archetypes, they still are archetypes.

[Grick]

Nothing addressing this directly, but:

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

Only real difference between "Archetype" and "Alternate class" is that an "Alternate class" gets its own art by Wayne Reynolds and gets all of its abilities plugged in for you on a table.

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

As I said in the previous post, an alternative class IS basically not much different than an archetype... they just swap out more abilities than most archetypes do, and we present them with those abilities already substituted in on the more familiar tables for the main class.

James Jacobs (Creative Director) wrote:

Another option would be to present the ninja as a rogue archetype. But know what? That's basically what an alternate class is—an archetype. They just get a lot more swap-outs than most archetypes, and they're just formatted with all of those swap-outs done for you.

Too big to quote:

James Jacobs on Base Class vs Alternate Class

JJ's explanation of subclass/Core class/Base class/Alternate class/Prestige class

From this I gather that you can apply a rogue archetype to a ninja, assuming they don't both replace any of the same rogue abilities.

[blackbloodtroll]

So, end result, rogue=ninja. Stack archetypes as desired.

[Khrysaor]

You guys are awesome!

[Interzone]

Ah cool, I never saw those posts before, thanks for sharing!
I take back what I said :P