Goblin Squad Member
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I really like the approach you guys are taking with this game Ryan.
One of the reason's why Pathfinders rule set was far superior to 3.5's was one of the things your hitting on here.
In 3.5 the core classes really didn't have much oomph at level 20. This forced most players to multiclass out into another class.
Pathfinder came along and changed it so that if you were dedicated to your core class at level 20 you were rewarded with some amazing abilities.
That being said, you can still multiclass in Pathfinder, and if you dedicate yourself to prestige class, you can gain some pretty amazing prestige class abilities.
With all of that being said, I have a question that I haven't seen asked or answered yet.
Ryan, will there be prestige classes, and if so will they have a capstone ability?
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you say first capstone takes 2.5 years, that means the first one takes 2.5 years. Am I right to assume that the second would likely take less, having already trained some of the prereqs and support abilities needed for a second set of merits?
I believe the way it is described, each archetype is a completely separate list of skills. It appears there are nuetural ones (skills that don't belong to any archetype), but leveling the archetype itself is reffering to 2.5 years of that archetype alone, with the nuetural skills as just optional alternative abilities that do not get you closer to the capstone.
IE say you took bard 1-5 skills, then power attack (assuming power attack is a non-archetype skill) and well a months worth of nuetural skills, then continued through bard 6-20. then you would add an extra month towards your goal to the capstone, but have the nuetural abilities, and not disqualify your capstone goal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i wonder, will capstones be in game at launch at all? if projected time to reach them is 2.5 years, that requires designing something that won't be used for a long time. also, MMO are in constant state of change. WOW wasn't same game in 2005 and 2007. EVE wasn't same in 2003 and 2005.
making a choice of everlasting consequence in such environment is a leap of faith.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i wonder, will capstones be in game at launch at all? if projected time to reach them is 2.5 years, that requires designing something that won't be used for a long time. also, MMO are in constant state of change. WOW wasn't same game in 2005 and 2007. EVE wasn't same in 2003 and 2005.
making a choice of everlasting consequence in such environment is a leap of faith.
Well I suppose the safest bet is really to pick an archetype you like without the capstone and stick with it, if you like the rest of the archetype then if the capstone sucks you still have 20 levels in a class you like, if the capstone is good, you have it.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well I suppose the safest bet is really to pick an archetype you like without the capstone and stick with it, if you like the rest of the archetype then if the capstone sucks you still have 20 levels in a class you like, if the capstone is good, you have it.
I'm playing a video game here. I'm not looking for the safest bet, I'm looking for the most entertaining bet. If sticking with one class, one role, for 2.5 years is the most fun that I will have in the game then that would be great. But if I'm being corralled into a single role for 2.5 years that turns out to not be very fun for me at all? I'll just stop playing and pick up the next game that seems like it will be fun.
And if I'm not having fun because I'm worried about getting a capstone ability I won't go to my friends and say "Hey, this game is really fun and you should play it with me." I'll probably say to them, "This game is a total grind, and if your into that then this game might be for you." Regardless of how many play styles there are, I can only grant insight into the ones that I have experienced.
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Goblin Squad Member
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* You only get the capstone for the first class you reach 20 in. You could go from Fighter 19 to Fighter 19/Cleric 20, get the cleric capstone, then go to Fighter 20/Cleric 20 and still only have the cleric capstone.
* You get all the capstones, but can only use one at a time, and possibly have to spend some small amount of skill-time on switching, or can only switch between learning skills. Basically, you have them all, but you have to make a choice between them that you can't trivially change.
* You get the most recent capstone. If you go from Fighter 19/Cleric 20, to Fighter 20/Cleric 20, you permanently lose the cleric capstone and gain the fighter one. This would lead most people to only get one class to 20.
* You just get all the capstones, and can use them as much as you're able to. No restrictions based on multiclassing.
Personally, I like #1 the best, although I could go for #2.
In that setup, I'd prefer #2 (can only use one at a time) or #4 (can use all). I'm a collector. :)
regarding training:
will there be restriction on how many characters on same account can train? in EVE, only one character can improve skills at any given time. will this be the case in PFO?
Would like to know this as well.
I certainly hope not, this game seems like it'd be made for alt-ing considering the amount of work and time you have to invest to just get one character to level 20 in one class.I want to explore as many classes and races as possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like the premise of the perpetual xp system.
Nothing squashes fun (and rp) like being brutalized and bullied by player's with 60+ hours a week spent in game power leveling.
I side with Ryan on the capstones. Keep them in the spirit of the core rules.
Agreed, on the perpetual XP system as well, me and my fiance often play games together, and always hit a rut because I work and she's a stay at home mom. Usually it hits her where she has 3-4 hours of time to play a game that I do not have, which when we play a game together that makes it so she either cannot play in her free time, or has to role an alt character that she does not like as much. This system will allow her to make her character, play it as much as she wants, and still be at the same level as me, which is awesome for us!
On the capstones I do have to admit I actually disagree with Ryan, it isn't anywhere close to a deal-breaker for the game, and it actually rewards the way I like to play (IE it is biased in my favor not against it, but I do have to say I disagree with bias). While I like consequences, to me having only 1 capstone available is a consequence. You pick your capstone, you commit to it and you can never get a different capstone once you accept one, you can't take others, that is a consequence where you force someone to accept a build, and stick with it.
To me the current system, allows any build, allows all capstones (admitted with a time investment that is significantly larger then the lifespan of any known MMORPG to get all of them), but it isn't making you sacrifice a build, or abilities in favor of an ability, it is sacrificing a play-style.
As I mentioned my play style is actually that, I usually lock onto a role with a character, and enjoy that role so it dosn't hamper me, but I know a few people it would hamper.
But yeah back to the question someone else had, I really would like Ryan to answer the question on alts. If I roll up a bard, a cleric, a wizard and a rogue on day 1. (assuming that we get that many character slots) Will I be able to level skills on all of them simultaneously, or do I have to pick one at a time?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I side with Ryan on the capstones. Keep them in the spirit of the core rules.
But the Capstones are not in the spirit of the core rules. If I play PFRPG to 21 levels and take Fighter 1/Wizard 1 then finish out fighter to 20 I get the 20th level ability. They may not officially support any epic level rules in PFRPG, but they do make suggestions to DMs who wish to continue past level 20 and just taking additional class levels is one of those suggestions. Nothing in that suggested system says you don't get the 20th level fighter ability for taking your 20th level of fighter at your 21st character level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Now, I am setting myself up for another Ryan Dancey Munitions sinking depth charge here but, here goes anyway.
This is purely based on the phrase "a 20th level capstone character should be a rare thing" (paraphrasing) comment but.. with this in mind.
I suspect that training may very well be limited to a single toon.. Why?
Well if they did it otherwise (assuming they don't come up with some kick ass alternate we haven't thought of yet) then other requirements not withstanding it would be possible for someone to create 11 characters on day 1 of launch and then, admittedly 2 1/2 years later, ding 11 level 20 capstone toons.
Now this is obviously NOT what is going to happen.. I am sure that some of the archetype merit badges are going to come with requirements "other" than just skills (must have played XX hours of dungeons where XX is a reasonable number but not achievable if all you did was log in and set up your skill training regimen)
But hopefully you see my point.
True, but that also sets up for danger when they go Free to play, as then you have loopholes like people making 11 accounts to accomplish the same goal.
I've been assuming you'd be able to have skills gaining on all your alts at the same time. This would be the benefit provided to the player who has lots more time to play. His Fighter wouldn't be higher level than a more casual player's Fighter, but he'd have more options because he'd also have a Wizard and a Cleric.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When you say first capstone takes 2.5 years, that means the first one takes 2.5 years. Am I right to assume that the second would likely take less, having already trained some of the prereqs and support abilities needed for a second set of merits?
Way too soon to know. Could go either way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is impossible to have a consequential ability that isn't required.
I agree. On the other hand, it's easy to have lots of stuff that would be considered "cool" to have earned but which don't affect your character's desirability as a companion. The problem with WoW is that everything they do in the game seems to require some kind of mechanical benefit (well except maybe the pets).
Earning the 20th level in a class will get you a 20th level class-type merit badge and that will unlock a 20th level Ability. That will be the mechanical benefit people will pursue. The capstone ability does not necessarily have to be something that changes a 20th level non-capstone character into a mistake. It could be something that is just enjoyable for the player - a way to "show off" to friends and opponents.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How would one go about raising their new skills?
Let's say I've dedicated my character to 20 levels in Paladin, to get the capstone, then decide to pick up Cleric, and start at one.
How do interact with my environment to raise those 1st level skills?
Will I be able to go back to an area that has content for 1st level skills, or will I have to try to grind out those skills on level 20 content? Will my paladin abilities freeze until my cleric abilites are of equal level? Will I have to stalk low level players to raise those skills? Under the premise that I have to use the skills to raise them...
I know we don't know how the PVE stuff will be set up, but in your mind how do you envision this happeneing?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I realize I am new to the PFO forums here. I have both the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player's Guide.
Neither of them has "capstone ability" in the index. Where do I need to look to see what everyone is talking about?
The capstone people are talking about is just the really nice ability you get at 20th level for each class.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I realize I am new to the PFO forums here. I have both the Core Rulebook and the Advanced Player's Guide.
Neither of them has "capstone ability" in the index. Where do I need to look to see what everyone is talking about?
PFO will not match the rules of pathfinder tabletop. The capstone abilities will not necessarily be the same as the level 20 abilities for the tabletop RPG. All we know is that according to the blog post linked at the beginning of this thread, they are planning on making capstone abilities in this game, there are no specifics as to what they can/will be.
Long rambling here with no specific questions - feel free to skip. :)
When I first read this blog entry, I was thrown for a loop because it was quite different than what I was expecting. I was looking for real-time gated skill acquisition, with bundles of skills making up a class and no specific class levels. I had certain (perhaps unrealistic) expectations that a skill-based system would be more accessible and sandbox-friendly than a class level-based system. But now we see that the system does, in fact have class levels.
But on reflection, I see that the accessibility that I'm looking for does not depend on what character advancement mechanic is used, but rather on how it is implemented. There are two things I'm looking for in my mental image of "sandbox fantasy MMO" as it relates to character development:
- Unlimited progression potential
- The ability to play meaningfully with characters much older or younger than me
These two things give me a reason to play a single character for a long time and continue to grow, while not creating such a high bar of access that new players cannot compete with the existing player base.
The progression potential is not unlimited - there are 20 levels per archetype and no more. However, the goals for the speed of skill gaining (2+ years per archetype) mean that it is effectively unlimited. So that's a check.
That just leaves what I'm calling "accessibility", though that term has other uses. Here I mean the ability to play with who I want to play with. To achieve that, the game will need a rather flat power curve. If a level 20 character can kill any level 15 or below character in one strike while remaining invulnerable themselves, then this will become a case of "first get to max level, then do the fun stuff". That's going to be very bad if it takes 2 years to get to that max level. Sure, you could be a merchant in town and be safe at a lower level - but we want to attract future players who are interested in all roles.
It applies in PvE as well as PvP. Can I go into a dungeon with people 10 levels higher than me and contribute? Or are all of the mobs impossible for me to hit? I'm not saying there should be no difference. I'm quite fine with the level 20 characters saying "Stay away from the dragon here - you don't have the skills to survive. You need to keep his orc slaves from attacking us while we fight him." In a PvP sense, as a level 10 Fighter I ought to look at a level 20 Fighter and think "There's no way I can beat him alone - he's far more skilled. But if I got five of my friends together we could probably overwhelm his guard." And I should look at a level 1 Fighter and think "All he knows how to do is stick me with the pointy end - but if he does it's gonna hurt."
This flat power curve doesn't just apply to the capstone ability, or lack thereof. It also applies to all abilities you gain as you level up a class. If the level 15 ability is important to my role, then I'm stuck for 14 levels. If it's "icing, not cake" like the capstone then it's fine. But that's a lot of icing, with all of cake packed in at the first few levels. It also means that the levels in PFO will mean very different things from the levels in PF PnP. You won't go from "rat killer" to "demigod". You'll go from "apprentice" to "grandmaster".
This type of incremental improvement, combined with a slow leveling pace, will hopefully serve to make the levels fade in importance. If I don't have to worry about getting the right level for a quest, or a dungeon, or an important skill, or to group with someone else or storm a castle; then I can stop thinking of myself as a "Level 7 Barbarian" or a "Level 14 Barbarian". I can just be a "Barbarian", and get on with playing the game. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The capstone people are talking about is just the really nice ability you get at 20th level for each class.
OK. In looking at the Core rulebook, the cleric does not receive anything special when they hit lvl 20. All a wizard gets is another feat.
All I see so far for capstones, is that they continue the progression for each class. Mighty rage, master hunter, shape change at will, etc.
I guess I look at the progression towards the capstone in PFO as similar to choosing an advanced class in SWTOR. For those that may not know, you create a character at the beginning and you have 8 classes to choose from. 4 for the Empire and 4 for the Republic.
When you reach lvl 10, you then get to choose which advanced class to pursue. Once made, the decision cannot be undone. For example, as a Sith Warrior you choose between Marauder and Juggernaut. I chose Marauder. I cannot become a Juggernaut without rerolling another Warrior.
Going for the "capstone" for me will probably be easier than other people. In all my years of P&P role playing, I have never multi-classed. If I chose a fighter, then I am a fighter all the way. I can understand the draw for wanting to be able to cast spells as a fighter. But, if you can do that, then you already have abilities that may be better than any capstone you may receive.
One of my questions is will there be capstones for non-combat archetypes? If I keep progressing my sword making, will I reach a point where I can make even better swords?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...
Going for the "capstone" for me will probably be easier than other people. In all my years of P&P role playing, I have never multi-classed. If I chose a fighter, then I am a fighter all the way. I can understand the draw for wanting to be able to cast spells as a fighter. But, if you can do that, then you already have abilities that may be better than any capstone you may receive.
...
note that there is nothing stopping you from having fighter capstone AND spellcasting. if you do it "the right way".
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Goblin Squad Member
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That just leaves what I'm calling "accessibility", though that term has other uses. Here I mean the ability to play with who I want to play with. To achieve that, the game will need a rather flat power curve. If a level 20 character can kill any level 15 or below character in one strike while remaining invulnerable themselves, then this will become a case of "first get to max level, then do the fun stuff". That's going to be very bad if it takes 2 years to get to that max level. Sure, you could be a merchant in town and be safe at a lower level - but we want to attract future players who are interested in all roles.
It applies...
Actually your point is very valid, I wouldn't call that rambling, I think it is an important thing to discuss. Doubly so in a PVP enabled game. One of the things eve did well was that a relatively new character, could get into a fight against a superior ship with much higher leveled "skills" and still have a notable chance to come out on top. Compared to most fantasy MMORPGs where a level 60 can go head on with a team of 20 level 40's and hardly take a scratch before massacring them.
I do believe this is where the balance challenge for a fantasy MMORPG is going to be very difficult. IMO I think the biggest thing that is going to have to go, is the rate of HP gain. Traditional MMO's tend to do a formula of base HP 150-200 x level, basically meaning that a level 15 character, has 15x the HP of a level 1 character, I think PFO will need to cut this difference down drastically to accomplish it's intended goals. I would probably have to estimate that the HP difference from the lowest weakest newbie, to a veteran, cannot be greater than about 5x, maybe 10x if you add in super high end, but breakable gear.
I think the greatest challenge to balance in the game will likely be, allowing things to scale up at a rate to feel progression, without allowing things to scale up in a way that causes the top players to just plow over the low players without even slowing down.
I think an important factor in this games success will be the ability for varying levels to fight side by side in both PVE and PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually your point is very valid, I wouldn't call that rambling, I think it is an important thing to discuss. Doubly so in a PVP enabled game. One of the things eve did well was that a relatively new character, could get into a fight against a superior ship with much higher leveled "skills" and still have a notable chance to come out on top. Compared to most fantasy MMORPGs where a level 60 can go head on with a team of 20 level 40's and hardly take a scratch before massacring them.
I do believe this is where the balance challenge for a fantasy MMORPG is going to be very difficult. IMO I think the biggest thing that is going to have to go, is the rate of HP gain. Traditional MMO's tend to do a formula of base HP 150-200 x level, basically meaning that a level 15 character, has 15x the HP of a level 1 character, I think PFO will need to cut this difference down drastically to accomplish it's intended goals. I would probably have to estimate that the HP difference from the lowest weakest newbie, to a veteran, cannot be greater than about 5x, maybe 10x if you add in super high end, but breakable gear.
I think the greatest challenge to balance in the game will likely be, allowing things to scale up at a rate to feel progression, without allowing things to scale up in a way that causes the top players to just plow over the low players without...
A couple questions:
1) Do we know if PFO will be a free-for-all PvP game?
2) In terms of combat, I would expect my lvl 9 fighter to perform better and last longer than a lvl 1 fighter. Not only do your hit points increase, but your attack bonus increases.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually your point is very valid, I wouldn't call that rambling, I think it is an important thing to discuss. Doubly so in a PVP enabled game. One of the things eve did well was that a relatively new character, could get into a fight against a superior ship with much higher leveled "skills" and still have a notable chance to come out on top. Compared to most fantasy MMORPGs where a level 60 can go head on with a team of 20 level 40's and hardly take a scratch before massacring them.
I do believe this is where the balance challenge for a fantasy MMORPG is going to be very difficult. IMO I think the biggest thing that is going to have to go, is the rate of HP gain. Traditional MMO's tend to do a formula of base HP 150-200 x level, basically meaning that a level 15 character, has 15x the HP of a level 1 character, I think PFO will need to cut this difference down drastically to accomplish it's intended goals. I would probably have to estimate that the HP difference from the lowest weakest newbie, to a veteran, cannot be greater than about 5x, maybe 10x if you add in super high end, but breakable gear.
I think the greatest challenge to balance in the game will likely be, allowing things to scale up at a rate to feel progression, without allowing things to scale up in a way that causes the top players to just plow over the low players without...
A couple questions:
1) Do we know if PFO will be a free-for-all PvP game?
2) In terms of combat, I would expect my lvl 9 fighter to perform better and last longer than a lvl 1 fighter. Not only do your hit points increase, but your attack bonus increases.
We do know that PFO will feature open world PvP in the majority of areas, and especially the most profitable areas. This has been in the blogs as well as most of the developer posts. Also if you read my post I did not once say there shouldn't be a difference and a level/gear advantage, I was saying that I think it would be bad if that difference were too large, and that the key to success will be in goblinworks's ability to find the balance
extreme 1. Too little difference in level, people feel no reason to care if their character levels up or finds gear, they make lots of throw away characters to grief others and when their reputation hits the toilet they just toss it out and make a new one.
Extreme 2. Character level difference is too large. Wars are a battle between the top 10 players on each side, everyone under level 20 are just speed bumps for the real combatants to slice through on their way to find their worthy opponent.
Either extreme will make the game hugely flawed, the key to goblin-works' success will be if they can find the right balance to avoid either situation
That just leaves what I'm calling "accessibility", though that term has other uses. Here I mean the ability to play with who I want to play with. To achieve that, the game will need a rather flat power curve. If a level 20 character can kill any level 15 or below character in one strike while remaining invulnerable themselves, then this will become a case of "first get to max level, then do the fun stuff". That's going to be very bad if it takes 2 years to get to that max level. Sure, you could be a merchant in town and be safe at a lower level - but we want to attract future players who are interested in all roles.
It applies...
Actually your point is very valid, I wouldn't call that rambling, I think it is an important thing to discuss. Doubly so in a PVP enabled game. One of the things eve did well was that a relatively new character, could get into a fight against a superior ship with much higher leveled "skills" and still have a notable chance to come out on top. Compared to most fantasy MMORPGs where a level 60 can go head on with a team of 20 level 40's and hardly take a scratch before massacring them.
I do believe this is where the balance challenge for a fantasy MMORPG is going to be very difficult. IMO I think the biggest thing that is going to have to go, is the rate of HP gain. Traditional MMO's tend to do a formula of base HP 150-200 x level, basically meaning that a level 15 character, has 15x the HP of a level 1 character, I think PFO will need to cut this difference down drastically to accomplish it's intended goals. I would probably have to estimate that the HP difference from the lowest weakest newbie, to a veteran, cannot be greater than about 5x, maybe 10x if you add in super high end, but breakable gear.
I think the greatest challenge to balance in the game will likely be, allowing things to scale up at a rate to feel progression, without allowing things to scale up in a way that causes the top players to just plow over the low players without...
I think the best way to achieve "balance" is by going for non-linear progression - as far as is possible.
The difference between a level 15 and a level 1 character should then mainly be in terms of the differing abilities of the two. If they are both fighters then they should both be equally as adept at swinging "a stick", but the level 15 character should have access to additional weapons that it will weild much better than the level 1 character.
When encountering a challenge where "a stick" is the solution, then they should be equals in overcoming this challenge.
Just some random musing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We do know that PFO will feature open world PvP in the majority of areas, and especially the most profitable areas. This has been in the blogs as well as most of the developer posts. Also if you read my post I did not once say there shouldn't be a difference and a level/gear advantage, I was saying that I think it would be bad if that difference were too...
OK, I did not see the open world PvP anywhere. Maybe I just missed it. Thanks.
Don't take my post as attacking you. I am not.
Dealing with balance and character progression is tough. I went through an electrical apprenticeship/training program. 5 year deal.
You would never expect a 1st year to have the same abilities as a 5th year. Yet, there are things a 1st year can do, that will benefit the journeymen (JW). JW being the people who are out of the training program. And moving beyond JW you have master JW.
You can give the 1st year apps all the best tools and blueprints. You can give the JW the least amount of tools and no blueprints. I would expect to have better results from the JW simply due to the experience.
I don't know how you can balance progression and experience.
I have never played EVE, so I have no idea how they do it.
Maybe you can put in a mechanic for NPC mobs, where they do not attack a PC who is below a certain level threshold. So, the lowbies can adventure with the higher levels and not get pwned. However, since you are so low a level, your chance of successfully attacking and damaging the mob will be much lower.
Now, if a bunch of lowbies venture into a higher level dungeon and start attacking mobs, then all bets are off.
I don't know. Even this idea sounds ripe for exploiting. I do not envy the devs here any for trying to balance everything out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Interesting read.
I'm not sure I like the..."off-line skill advancement" aspect....and I'm not sure what practical effect it has if it simply determines when you can start earning "merit badges" .... does skill advancement give you anything on it's own?
The other thing I'm concerned about is the nature of earning "merit badges". Depending upon how it's implimented, it has the potential to channel a characters advancement goals into a very narrow range of adventuring.
For example if a merit badge for a fighter is "kill 200 orcs"...it doesn't allow for much freedom in how that character operates or adventures.... could you not learn to be a fighter equaly as well by killing 200 undead... or gnolls....or a few ogres....or Hill Giants...or bandits...or what have you?
I've never really like the way MMO's tend to impliment thier "achievement" systems.... and "merit badges" seem to bring up images of those.... although I suppose it's possible PFO might find a way to impliment such a system that is open enough to allow for an "open world" style adventure path.
Personaly,
I've never really had a problem with the earn XP until you gain enough to level up....leveling up means getting X number of skill picks to choose from (within your class, if class based...or build your own if not skill based).
For an MMO, as long as you are pacing it so that you don't earn levels too quickly and the difference between 1 level and the next isn't that drastic....and the type's of activities that can earn you XP are fairly diverse...then I don't see much of an issue.
The pitfall that I think many MMO's that use the Level/XP system fall into is that they allow the characters to level far too quickly (Thier pretty shallow games..so a big part of thier appeal to players is just getting the "Gold Star" for the next level....thus they need to keep that reward going quickly to keep the player interested...as opposed to having the gameplay/world be the thing that keeps the player interested) and they create far too great a difference in abilities between levels.
IMO, the difference in ability between a starting player and the highest level in the game should maybe be 3X or 4X.... Most MMO's it's more like 50X. If you keep the power curve more gradual...then it eliminates alot of the "lower level can't do squat" syndrome that would be a real problem for a game like PFO.
Just my 2 coppers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK, I did not see the open world PvP anywhere. Maybe I just missed it. Thanks.
Don't take my post as attacking you. I am not.
Dealing with balance and character progression is tough. I went through an electrical apprenticeship/training program. 5 year deal.
You would never expect a 1st year to have the same abilities as a 5th year. Yet, there are things a 1st year can do, that will benefit the journeymen (JW). JW being the people who are out of the training program. And moving beyond JW you have master JW.
You can give the 1st year apps all the best tools and blueprints. You can give the JW the least amount of tools and no blueprints. I would expect to have better results from the JW simply due to the experience.
Yeah looking back at it it's not as clear cut in the blogs as it is in the posts made by Ryan early on after the anouncement so if you are just coming in I can see how you'd be way behind on the news, have a look here, here and here
I don't know how you can balance progression and experience.
I have never played EVE, so I have no idea how they do it.
I'll admit I haven't gotten around to playing eve either, but at least from the summery I get from friends who do, the majority of ships have significantly low enough HP that, if you get the jump on them, and can pull off an attack with the right conditions, a low skilled (as in game skills, it takes good amount of player skill to pull it off) can catch off guard a higher level more skilled player and destroy his ship faster than he can react, the exceptions to this would be very large extremely powerful and expensive warships like the titan, but even those have drawbacks (mainly that they take about 6 months to make, so in the event that you are destroyed when flying one, you've just been set back big time).
The first time a titan in the game was destroyed, it was done by a massive organization of players, all flying the cheapest crappiest starter ship, they sent hundreds of them at the ship and destroyed it. Thereby causing people who have titans, to be far more careful about when/where they use them, out of fear of similar happening.
I'm not sure I like the..."off-line skill advancement" aspect....and I'm not sure what practical effect it has if it simply determines when you can start earning "merit badges" .... does skill advancement give you anything on it's own?
That's something I wondered as well. In EVE, the skills have ranks. So investing real world time in raising a skill both improves your character and serves as a gating mechanism to prevent people from getting everything on day 1. But here, the skills don't directly improve your performance, so they're left as just naked gating mechanic. "You can't be level 4 till Thursday."
From what I gather, the skills don't have ranks but they are tied to the ability to use a certain item. So, a Fighter might skill up short sword, then broadsword, depending on what type of weapon he wanted to use. Then I'm imagining the level merit badges will contain requirements like "gain skill in 3 melee weapons of your choice" or somesuch.
I recently started playing Eve Online and I have to say that I like their skill system. One of the things that I hated the most about wow was the sense that if I wasn't playing the game I'm falling behind everyone else. In eve online you will at least still be gaining skills while you are playing other games. This is actually the exact skill system that I was hoping Pathfinder Online would use :D
I have to say though, I think the idea of having to stick to a single class' skills for 2.5 years to get a capstone kind of puts a damper on the flexibility and creativity that this skill system could allow. Maybe there should be some alternate way to get the capstone later at the cost of additional training time?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Just a thought or two on the capstone issue. If the assumption that it will take 2.5 years to reach "level 20" in a single class is accurate, what percentage of players is this expected to be? 20%? 10%? 2%?
Furthermore, if, for example, it takes 1 additional year to reach "level 20" in subsequent classes, what percentage of players will reach that milestone? Presumably a lower amount.
This being the case, the whole capstone discussion applies to a small sub-set of the total player base. I'm not suggestiong that it's not a topic worthy of discussion, but it is worth keeping in mind that it's far less imporant than many other game play elements, since it will only affect a small fraction of the total player base.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do quite a bit of theorycrafting...
It is impossible to have a consequential ability that isn't required.
I wholeheartedly disagree, even though Mr. Dancey already agreed, but I think we're talking about different things.
Mr. Dancey was talking about creating a capstone ability that wasn't "required", but he also implied it wouldn't be consequential.
I'm talking about creating a number of abilities that are all equally consequential, such that the choice of which ability to actually use at any given moment is purely an RP choice. It may be somewhat difficult to get the math exactly right, but even if it's just the exact same math/effects but with different animations, you've still accomplished the goal.
I'm not sure this speaks to your point...
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Goblin Squad Member
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From what I gather, the skills don't have ranks but they are tied to the ability to use a certain item. So, a Fighter might skill up short sword, then broadsword, depending on what type of weapon he wanted to use. Then I'm imagining the level merit badges will contain requirements like "gain skill in 3 melee weapons of your choice" or somesuch.
Actually what I'm gathering is that they won't have any effect at all beyond giving you options for "Merit badges" that do.
IE lets give a hypothetical fighter skill called Weapon Proficiencies. Let's assume for the time being that you can use any weapon, just with a huge penalty if you aren't proficient. So as a fighter you level weapon proficiency to 3, which unlocks the merit badge option "Longsword Proficiency, kill 15 enemies using a long sword". After you kill 15 enemies at the penalty, you then get longsword proficiency and lose the penalty, if you killed them before leveling the skill and getting the option for the badge, it would have done nothing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will I be able to go back to an area that has content for 1st level skills...?
To my understanding, there won't really be "content for 1st level skills". There will be skills that you'll advance over time, whether you play or not. As you choose to advance Skills in the "Cleric" tree, you'll become eligible to gain a level as a Cleric. You won't ever have to grind up your levels...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Will I be able to go back to an area that has content for 1st level skills...?To my understanding, there won't really be "content for 1st level skills". There will be skills that you'll advance over time, whether you play or not. As you choose to advance Skills in the "Cleric" tree, you'll become eligible to gain a level as a Cleric. You won't ever have to grind up your levels...
Well the merit badges will have requirements, tasks, from the descriptions they can be anything from go to X, to kill X enemies, maybe even heal this many people in the clerics case. They may or may not be specific, but from the sounds of it I doubt there are any locations that you are barred from due to level. Every description of the game sounds like level 20's and level 1's will be in the same areas, sharing the same towns, fighting along side each-other during wars etc... I don't think you will need a level 1 escort to go kill a level 1 wolf if a merit badge requires it, I think you just go find one and kill it. Instances if present in the game at all, will almost certainly not have a "you must be between 4 and 7 to enter" requirement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not sure I like the..."off-line skill advancement" aspect....and I'm not sure what practical effect it has if it simply determines when you can start earning "merit badges" .... does skill advancement give you anything on it's own?That's something I wondered as well. In EVE, the skills have ranks. So investing real world time in raising a skill both improves your character and serves as a gating mechanism to prevent people from getting everything on day 1. But here, the skills don't directly improve your performance, so they're left as just naked gating mechanic. "You can't be level 4 till Thursday."
From what I gather, the skills don't have ranks but they are tied to the ability to use a certain item. So, a Fighter might skill up short sword, then broadsword, depending on what type of weapon he wanted to use. Then I'm imagining the level merit badges will contain requirements like "gain skill in 3 melee weapons of your choice" or somesuch.
Yeah, and I don't think it's actually doing all that much for the "We can all play together - issue"
Yes, if both players join the game at the SAME TIME and one plays 1 hour per week and the other plays 10 hours per week then they'll both be at the same skill rank 2 years later (whether they are at the same functional rank in terms of abilities, I guess depends upon how much playtime is required to earn a "merit badge"). However that makes an ASSUMPTION about a very limited case of the type of people that want to play together.
What about the scenerio where I'm playing PFO online for 6-12 months and then convince my freind to join? With the "offline skill advancement" mechanic he could NEVER catch up to me. With a standard XP system....I could help him catch upto me rather quickly simply by going along with him on adventures that earned me little to no experience but earned him a ton...until he got close to my level. With real time gating of skill advancement that's no longer possible.
I really don't see the mechanic doing much of anything accept putting a real time hard break on maximum advancement (and giving players that joined the game earlier in real time yet another advantage over the ones they ALREADY would have in terms of being established in the world/community over players joining later)
I don't think the system really does much at all in terms of lower level players being able to contribute when compared to higher levels... an xp system would work equaly as well....the real key to that dynamic is the raw difference in power between a starting player and a player at max level....
and I've got to say, I don't like the fact that there is essentialy no "max level".... no matter what time it takes...being able to achieve 20/20/20/20 Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Rogue doesn't strike me as a good game-play mechanic.... that's essentialy the same as a guy running around in blue tights and a cape with a big red S on his chest.
No one character should be capable of doing everything well in every category not matter how long they've played. A player should have the option of doing 1 thing REALLY well (Specialization) or a bunch of things moderately well (Generalization) no matter how long they've been around.
Edit: The issue may not sound that bad if you are only thinking in the 2-4 year range for the games life. However many MMO's have 10+ year lifespans...and players that are around for that long.
One thing I have to point out. Eve online was designed so that even ships that had relatively low skill requirements had uses. This is mostly because different ships had different 'roles'. For example, right now when I'm flying my little destroyers or frigates around in a party even though everyone else has battleships. However, am still able to be useful. How? Larger ships have trouble shooting down ships that are significantly faster and smaller, so they had me fighting down drones and frigates for them.
Basically, in eve, even if you have tons of skills you're still going to be limited by the ship you're flying. There is no 'best' ship in the game because no ship can do everything. The larger and more powerful ships do take years to gain access to, but they would have trouble shooting down a swarm of smaller ships.
The thing that throws me off about pathfinder online is that you basically have access to all of the 'roles' at the start, so no matter what you pick you will be trying to use a role that an older character would also be using. Will someone who has spent 1 month on his rogue be of any use to someone who has spent 2 years on his rogue? In eve you don't have that kind of situation. You have to spend years in eve to even get access to the biggest ship, and then that ship will still want a fleet of smaller ships to protect it.
It is going to be interesting seeing how all this works out.
Edit: I think part of the issue is that we're stuck thinking in terms of 'levels'. Technically, if this works like eve online, high level characters will just be getting more powerful but more specialized gear and abilities. The difference between a 'level 1' and a 'level 20' in a class will be determined by those, not by hit points. Plus, I'm assuming that there will be a slot system that will limit what gear and abilities you have access to at any given time.
If they do this right, then the difference between a 5 year old character and a 1 month old character may not be as great as we are thinking it would be. A high level character will have a lot of options and specialized abilities, but won't be able to use them all at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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One thing I have to point out. Eve online was designed so that even ships that had relatively low skill requirements had uses. This is mostly because different ships had different 'roles' for example, right now when I'm flying my little destroyers or frigates around in a party where everyone else had battleships. However, I was still able to be useful. Why? Larger ships have trouble shooting down ships that are significantly faster and smaller, so they had me fighting down drones and frigates for them.
Basically, in eve, even if you have tons of skills you're still going to be limited by the ship you're flying. There is no 'best' ship in the game because no ship can do everything. The larger and more powerful ships do take years to gain access to, but they would have trouble shooting down a swarm of smaller ships.
The thing that throws me off about pathfinder online is that you basically have access to all of the 'roles' at the start, so no matter what you pick you will be trying to use a role that an older character would also be using. Will someone who has spent 1 month on his rogue be of any use to someone who has spent 2 years on his rogue? In eve you don't have that kind of situation. You have to spend years in eve to even get access to the biggest ship, and then that ship will still want a fleet of smaller ships to protect it.
It is going to be interesting seeing how all this works out.
Well there are possible limitations, what if certain equipment was a factor. Much like a ship encumberance and weapons can be a factor. what if you could say have 1-2 weapons in quick draw locations (IE on your belt etc... but then the rest of your equipment had to be in your backpack where it takes a minute or 2 to sort through and retrieve and armor takes time to don, and then abilities were tied to weapons or armor, say backstab only worked with daggers, sneaking cannot be done in armor heavyer then light, a wizard must hold his spellbook to cast and armor arcane spell failure rules apply. Some abilites should be permitted to be used by multiples, say a wizard/rogue should be able to sneak just fine even with his spellbook out, but he can't backstab with a spellbook, and accept spell failure if he wants chain shirt grade AC. You might even allow a character to have a second weapon ready for combat to keep them limited to 2 classes max at any given time.
It would pretty much be like changing your ship in eve, the only areas I see real issues are the crossovers of very similar classes, say paladin's and fighters, wizards and sorcs etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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No one character should be capable of doing everything well in every category not matter how long they've played. A player should have the option of doing 1 thing REALLY well (Specialization) or a bunch of things moderately well (Generalization) no matter how long they've been around.
Is there an actual *reason* for this? Or is it just your opinion?
In my opinion, this is 100% okay.
If I want to focus all of my character development on a single character, and be able to do different things at different times, why shouldn't I be allowed to?
Does it really matter if I log out my Fighter and log in my Mage as opposed to just taking off my armor and pulling out my wand?
Some people like to have a bunch of different alts that are each good at one thing. Other people want to always be on the same character, but still be good at all those things. Why should they be barred from doing that just because it violates your sense of propriety?
Or is there an actual reason?
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Goblin Squad Member
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No one character should be capable of doing everything well in every category not matter how long they've played. A player should have the option of doing 1 thing REALLY well (Specialization) or a bunch of things moderately well (Generalization) no matter how long they've been around.
Is there an actual *reason* for this? Or is it just your opinion?
In my opinion, this is 100% okay.
If I want to focus all of my character development on a single character, and be able to do different things at different times, why shouldn't I be allowed to?
Does it really matter if I log out my Fighter and log in my Mage as opposed to just taking off my armor and pulling out my wand?
Some people like to have a bunch of different alts that are each good at one thing. Other people want to always be on the same character, but still be good at all those things. Why should they be barred from doing that just because it violates your sense of propriety?
Or is there an actual reason?
1) Opinion. Personal Preference.
2) Power. An individual character that has maxed Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue is VASTLY more powerfull then a character that has maxed only one. If you are out in the middle of a dungeon somewhere and you run into some powerfull undead your fighter who has all the advantages of a top level fighter can then turn around and turn undead like a top level cleric, he can strip off his armor and cast invisability and fly on himself like a top level wizard to defeat the next threat and then go ahead a pick locks and disarm traps like a top level rogue to defeat the next one. That's not something you can do with 4 seperate Alt characters.... unless you think it's an acceptable practice to log-off a character in the middle of combat in order to avoid defeat in a difficult envounter and then pop in a new character of your choice to take over the adventure at the point where the other one logged off.
It's one thing if there is some limitation in the number of abilities you can have slotted at any one time (say 20 levels max...and you can respec once a week by going back to town...and choose the new set you want to play for a week) but to have access to ALL those abilities at once...or even the ability to quickly and easly change the abilities whenever the situation calls for (i.e. simply take off armor and your now a Wizard).... essentialy makes the character a "God"....no character should be a "God".
3) Interdependancy. A game like PFO should be focused on teamwork, group, faction and community play. A cornerstone of creating a strong dynamic in that regards is interdependancy... i.e. The Wizard is dependant upon the Fighter who is dependant on the Cleric, etc.... By allowing all those sort of abilities to be concentrated in 1 player... you are essentialy killing that aspect of interdependancy in the game... and turning it much more into a solo-focused game.
It's one if a player decides to Multi-Account/Multi-Box to build Alts that can assist one another. A game where that's possible may not be ideal....but usualy that's a side-effect of the technical limitations of the game not an intended design choice...so relatively few players will engage in it. A game where the INTENDED DESIGN CHOICE is for every player to eventualy become Max Level in all roles..is a VERY different game then one where a few players might have to work at Multi-Boxing/Multi-Accounting/Alt-ing to support thier play choice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2) Power. An individual character that has maxed Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue is VASTLY more powerfull then a character that has maxed only one. If you are out in the middle of a dungeon somewhere and you run into some powerfull undead your fighter who has all the advantages of a top level fighter can then turn around and turn undead like a top level cleric, he can strip off his armor and cast invisability and fly on himself like a top level wizard to defeat the next threat and then go ahead a pick locks and disarm traps like a top level rogue to defeat the next one. That's not something you can do with 4 seperate Alt characters.... unless you think it's an acceptable practice to log-off a character in the middle of combat in order to avoid defeat in a difficult envounter and then pop in a new character of your choice to take over the adventure at the point where the other one logged off.
It's one thing if there is some limitation in the...
While I do agree with you, I also think this can be contained via action times. If stripping off the full plate armor to go wizard takes 5 mins, then he can't do it in combat, and won't want to do it alone. Limiting carried items, possibly having say a sheath for active weapons, but a bag of holding that takes a minute to retrieve a weapon from, will eliminate switching in combat. etc...
Now there are areas where I feel the concepts can still get hairy, Mainly in things like HP, attack bonus etc... with virtually unlimited class levels, how does one do HP in a way to not allow more or less unlimited HP rates, or insanely high attack bonuses on a wizard/bard etc... and that I have no flippin clue on.
3) Interdependency. A game like PFO should be focused on teamwork, group, faction and community play. A cornerstone of creating a strong dynamic in that regards is interdependency... i.e. The Wizard is dependent upon the Fighter who is dependent on the Cleric, etc.... By allowing all those sort of abilities to be concentrated in 1 player... you are essentially killing that aspect of interdependency in the game... and turning it much more into a solo-focused game.
Excellent point. I tend to think of things just in terms of my own character, since I'm more of a loner type of player. But a healthy sandbox game absolutely needs people to be interdependent.
I could see agreeing with a system that allowed you to work on anything, but limited what you could do at any one time. Selecting a subset of skills in town, or once a month, or however that would be coordinated. Just so that you couldn't switch between one pull and the next.
My personal preference would be for skills that aren't in use to decline. So, if a lvl 20 Fighter starts working on his Cleric skills, some of his top Fighter skills will fade. He could always learn them again, but the rate of decay would be set so you couldn't be lvl 20 in two things at once. He can do whatever he wants, and his skills will reflect what he's been doing, but he can't do it all at the same time. His character will be an ever-changing reflection of his playstyle.
From an in-game perspective, it also makes sense that if you stop training with the sword you get rusty. Not that I'm ever in favor of "reality" trumping game mechanics - but this is one time where they'd both mesh.
However, I'm betting I'm in a very small minority for being willing to have this mechanic. Taking things away is generally considered a big "no-no". :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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...no character should be a "God".
I wholeheartedly disagree :) I'll point you to Age of Enthronement, with specific attention to: "This age is characterised by the emergence of a number of gods who ascend to divinity through the Test of the Starstone."
I absolutely *do* want to become something very much like a demigod.
As for a 20/20/20/20 Fighter/Cleric/Mage/Rogue being overpowered... relative to what? A 20 Fighter is way, way overpowered compared to a 1 Rogue. So what?
Finally, as for "Interdependence", I truly hope PFO doesn't try to make me "need" you or anyone else. I want to play with the people I want to play with because playing with them is "FUN", not because one has ability A that I need, and another has ability B that I need. There's plenty of room for unique abilities and even unique roles without making those roles required.