
jacetms87 |
My gm in an upcoming Jade regant game ( skipping to book 4 im told) I will be a level 10 blaster sorcerer ( I know unoptimized but I wanted to give it a try). My gm told me I should take leadership, I informed him that I think the feat is very overpowerd, he said " no its not that bad there are a lot of limits take it" so I pose a challange ( such as it is.
How far can we take this?
My leadership score should be 18 Lvl 10+8cha mod ( this is with item with out only +5 so 15)
Im showing 351st lvl 3,2nd lvl 1 4th 1 5th lvl follower, and a level 8 cohort.
How optimized can we make this?

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Aaaand this is why it's good to pay attention to the fact that leadership gives you the ability to "attract" a cohort, not the ability to define one.
But as long as we're talking theoretical situations, I have to mention that leadership requires character level 7, so I'm not sure an eidolon would qualify since it doesn't have character levels and instead has racial HD.

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What's your funding? Seriously? After working down the summoners taking leadership line, your final group should all be taking scribe scroll. Have them all scribe scrolls (1000 GP worth for 500 GP). Have 1 take the trait where you can sell things for 10% extra. This generates 50 GP net profit per person per day, as you are selling at half price. You should have 70 or so scribers, that is a net profit of 3500 GP per day... Or about 1 million GP in a year. Buy the most powerful artifacts in the land, take over world.

Ævux |

Well if you weren't already a sorc..
I'd say start with a bard/Cavalier (tactician cavalier). Go high on cha bonus.. Take natural leader trait. with an 18 cha, 7th level.. You are looking about an 12 at the start.
Go into Battle Herald and Low Templar PrCs.
Low templar removes many potential negatives of leadership
Battle herald adds an additional +4 when you max out that class.. So you are looking about (even if you never never increase cha..
+4, +20, + 4 + 1=29 points of leadership, and that's without any situational bonuses. Chances are you will hit the max waaay before you hit max level.
Makes me wish there was an epic level book for epic level leadership.
And then you follow up with Summoners/Eidolons..

DreamAtelier |
Assuming Stabbity is right:
Take Leadership. have your cohort be a master summoner. Have all your followers be master summoners.
Have your cohort take leadership. Have all his followers be master summoners as well.
Everyone of them spams Summon Monster.
Proceed with the Conquering, backed by your personal horde of monsters.

Lurk3r |

Make sure your cohorts are all summoners, and that their eidolons also take Leadership to gain summoner cohorts as well.
Broodmaster summoners so each summoner cohort can have leadership and multiple eidolons who all have leadership! Of course, the 4 eidolon brood will be stuck with just 3 feats until level 9...

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Agent of dusk gives you 10% extra on sales. Fun for the whole family :).
And there is nothing preventing cohorts from taking leadership, silly though that may be. Not that you can chain down too far; since it requires 7th level only your cohort (who I guess will be the banner guy for maximization) can make the sufficient level to have followers of his own.

jacetms87 |
jacetms87 wrote:Hmm if followers are sufficiant level can they take leadership?
Ohh forgot to mention its on 25 pt buy.
Put every point into Charisma and make all other stats 8. ;-)
Also yes, cohorts can if they meet the prerequisites (AKA level). It's crass, but hey we're breaking it.
Sadly can only but an 18 im showing. To bad ;)

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So assuming both you and your cohort are able to top out the chart (difficult but not impossible), you'll have about 300 people making those scrolls, 50 GP per day each... that will make our profits 15,000 per day, or about 5 million GP per year. Even if you can't get that high we should be able to get the score high enough for 50K or so per week with very little work. Those 1st levels can be master summoners too; every day have them summon monkeys and dogs by the hundreds and flood the evil-dwelling dungeon of your choice.

Hitdice |

So assuming both you and your cohort are able to top out the chart (difficult but not impossible), you'll have about 300 people making those scrolls, 50 GP per day each... that will make our profits 15,000 per day, or about 5 million GP per year. Even if you can't get that high we should be able to get the score high enough for 50K or so per week with very little work. Those 1st levels can be master summoners too; every day have them summon monkeys and dogs by the hundreds and flood the evil-dwelling dungeon of your choice.
If only production equalled sales! stupid supply and demand...

Jen the GM |

Take one branch of your tree of cohorts and make them into a guild master.
That guild master attracts people from around the land to quest and vanquish evil, while selling your scrolls to them and getting rid of the excess supply.
Also, I'm sure there are scrolls of spells that make items that are equal to gold directly. Say...sheep or blocks of iron. :p

jacetms87 |
Thalin wrote:So assuming both you and your cohort are able to top out the chart (difficult but not impossible), you'll have about 300 people making those scrolls, 50 GP per day each... that will make our profits 15,000 per day, or about 5 million GP per year. Even if you can't get that high we should be able to get the score high enough for 50K or so per week with very little work. Those 1st levels can be master summoners too; every day have them summon monkeys and dogs by the hundreds and flood the evil-dwelling dungeon of your choice.If only production equalled sales! stupid supply and demand...
Ha luckily we are in a fantasy setting where we can ressurect, summon extraplanner creatures to fight for us, shoot fireballs and lightning.
Circumventing a little thing like supply and demand not a problem
RAW I don't see a supply and demand rule. ;)

DreamAtelier |
Depends on how you define Worse.
For ultimate annihilation of all enemies, we can certain redesign our followers/cohorts to achieve more optimal performance.
We begin with you and your leadership score of 19 (because you take the natural leader trait as well, because you're smart).
You make your cohort a broodmaster summoner. he's level 8 (because you're only level 10 and he can't be higher). He takes Leadership, and each of his eidolons take leadership. At level 8 they only have three feats.
Right now we're looking at 1 leadership 19, 1 Leadership 13, and 3 leadership 11s, most likely. You have gained: 40+10+(6x3)=68 first level followers, 5 second level followers, 2 third level followers, 1 fourth level follower, 1 fifth level follower, 4 sixth level cohorts, and an Eighth level cohort.
You make all the sixth level cohorts Master summoners, and do the same thing with the first, second, and fourth levelers. Mr. 5th Level becomes a wizard (because he'll have fireball and lightning bolt, and lots of them), while the third levels become clerics (to supply you with healing and food/water for your small army).
Each of your master summoner goons will have a minimum of 6 Summon Monster spell like abilities, which last for minutes at a time, and multiple ones of which may be active at once. They also all have UMD as a class skill.
You give every one of them a wand of magic missile. UMD checks shouldn't be too hard for them to pass to use it (should be happening more than 50% of the time).
If they all go balls to the wall with the summoning, you should be able to have:
-438 Monsters from the SM I list (average CR 1/2, which means you're looking at about CR 110 or so for dealing with them)
-6 monsters off the SM II list or another 12 to 24 off SM I (Average CR 1, making these worth CR 6 or so)
-18 monsters off the SM III, or another 36 to 72 off SM II, or 54 to 108 off SM I (average CR 2 each on SM III, so CR20 or there abouts using those numbers).
And then the followers themselves.

Hitdice |

Hitdice wrote:Thalin wrote:So assuming both you and your cohort are able to top out the chart (difficult but not impossible), you'll have about 300 people making those scrolls, 50 GP per day each... that will make our profits 15,000 per day, or about 5 million GP per year. Even if you can't get that high we should be able to get the score high enough for 50K or so per week with very little work. Those 1st levels can be master summoners too; every day have them summon monkeys and dogs by the hundreds and flood the evil-dwelling dungeon of your choice.If only production equalled sales! stupid supply and demand...Ha luckily we are in a fantasy setting where we can ressurect, summon extraplanner creatures to fight for us, shoot fireballs and lightning.
Circumventing a little thing like supply and demand not a problem
RAW I don't see a supply and demand rule. ;)
Never mind all that, Jen the GM just invent the the Kickback feat in the post above yours :P

KrispyXIV |

James Jacobs wrote:Make sure your cohorts are all summoners, and that their eidolons also take Leadership to gain summoner cohorts as well.Broodmaster summoners so each summoner cohort can have leadership and multiple eidolons who all have leadership! Of course, the 4 eidolon brood will be stuck with just 3 feats until level 9...
Holy cow! A use for Broodmaster! Who'd have thunk it!

jacetms87 |
Depends on how you define Worse.
For ultimate annihilation of all enemies, we can certain redesign our followers/cohorts to achieve more optimal performance.
We begin with you and your leadership score of 19 (because you take the natural leader trait as well, because you're smart).
You make your cohort a broodmaster summoner. he's level 8 (because you're only level 10 and he can't be higher). He takes Leadership, and each of his eidolons take leadership. At level 8 they only have three feats.
Right now we're looking at 1 leadership 19, 1 Leadership 13, and 3 leadership 11s, most likely. You have gained: 40+10+(6x3)=68 first level followers, 5 second level followers, 2 third level followers, 1 fourth level follower, 1 fifth level follower, 4 sixth level cohorts, and an Eighth level cohort.
You make all the sixth level cohorts Master summoners, and do the same thing with the first, second, and fourth levelers. Mr. 5th Level becomes a wizard (because he'll have fireball and lightning bolt, and lots of them), while the third levels become clerics (to supply you with healing and food/water for your small army).
Each of your master summoner goons will have a minimum of 6 Summon Monster spell like abilities, which last for minutes at a time, and multiple ones of which may be active at once. They also all have UMD as a class skill.
You give every one of them a wand of magic missile. UMD checks shouldn't be too hard for them to pass to use it (should be happening more than 50% of the time).
If they all go balls to the wall with the summoning, you should be able to have:
-438 Monsters from the SM I list (average CR 1/2, which means you're looking at about CR 110 or so for dealing with them)
-6 monsters off the SM II list or another 12 to 24 off SM I (Average CR 1, making these worth CR 6 or so)
-18 monsters off the SM III, or another 36 to 72 off SM II, or 54 to 108 off SM I (average CR 2 each on SM III, so CR20 or there abouts using those numbers).
And then the followers themselves.
Wow... just wow.

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My only suggestion to the money making madness schemes above is to go with witches and alchemists. Both get Brew Potion as early as level 1, thus opening up your market, plus alchemists, built correctly, can be a non magical money making factory @ lvl 1 because crafting non magical items only use up 1/3 the cost. Takes more time, but worth it. Furthermore, you'll still be able to circumvent any GM clause about selling all items at 1/2 market price as you'll still make money in the margin between 1/3 and 1/2 the cost.

DreamAtelier |
Of course, it is only fair to point out that my above work was based entirely around the theory that quantity was better than quality. Presuming we want to make our DM cry for alternate reasons, we can go about it in other ways.
For instance, we can play Schrodinger's Wizard at this point. To do this, we make the core character a 10th level Divination specialist Scroll Master Wizard. We still dump stats so that we can have a high leadership score, but since our end goal is god, we don't care. We invest in Eldritch Heritage (Arcane Bloodline) to get back the familiar we gave up to be a scroll master (since scrollmaster simply removes the class feature, and does not prohibit us having a familiar for some other reason). Oh, and because the bloodline power specifically states that our sorcerer levels (or effective levels) stack with our wizard levels for determining the abilities of our familiar, we'll be calculating our familiar's capacities as appropriate for an 18th level wizard. So we're investing in improved familiar as well. Let's make sure it can use magic device.
Our first cohort is still the broodmaster summoner (we call him Mr. Buffomatic), but he and the eidolons take sorcerers as their cohorts. We carefully build each of the sorcerers so that none of their spell selections overlap with each other OR the summoner, effectively giving us a list of 74 spells between levels 0 and 5 that we can cast spontaneously, BEFORE counting the core character's spellcasting capacity.
We keep the infinite money scheme, and put our fourth and fifth level followers into crafting scrolls, wonderous items, and wands for our use. First and second level make scrolls only (Unless we get some alchemists, in which case they make potions. We should probably do that, but it doesn't need to be a large subset of our followers). Our third level followers are all magi, who take the wand wielder and wand mastery arcana. Between True Strike and the wands we can supply them with, they might actually be able to contribute in a worthwhile manner in combat.
Now we make our own scrolls as well as we go along. But we're smart, and we make our scrolls (just as our followers do) at the lowest possible CL. Why? Because we're a scroll master, so when we cast from a scroll, we may treat them like staves, in that we can use our own caster level if it is higher than how the scroll was made.
So, between our own daily spells, our spontaneous casting cohorts, and our scroll library (and it should look like a library), we should ALWAYS have the right spells for the job available. Since everyone involved in this plan including the eidolons (excepting the main familiar) can either use spell trigger and completion items without hesitation due to class, or has Use Magic device as a class skill, we can also be certain that we will never be short of actions which we can expend in hurling off the right spells at the right time.

master arminas |

Really, how common is it for a player to custom build his own cohorts and followers? I remember when a player in the game I used to play in (3.5) took leadership, the DM built his cohort and we pretty much ignored the followers (they stayed at the Keep we were charged with running when we went adventuring). And that cohort was a cleric since the player was a paladin (a cleric of the paladin's deity).
I am just wondering here.
Master Arminas

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Really, how common is it for a player to custom build his own cohorts and followers? I remember when a player in the game I used to play in (3.5) took leadership, the DM built his cohort and we pretty much ignored the followers (they stayed at the Keep we were charged with running when we went adventuring). And that cohort was a cleric since the player was a paladin (a cleric of the paladin's deity).
I am just wondering here.
Master Arminas
I know I don't, and I've never been allowed to build my own cohort either (and I've had at least 2 characters with them). However, we commonly let people decide what path they take after recruitment as long as it isn't completely divergent (so having a cleric start taking paladin levels is fine, but having a superstitious barbarian suddenly take an interest in wizardry would not be).
Next time I DM I may even remove that and just level the cohort for my players in whatever way seems appropriate given what has happened and the personality of the cohort. I'll still let them control combat actions, of course (well, for the most part).

DreamAtelier |
Every time I've ever been allowed to take leadership, I've been required to build the followers and cohorts for it. *shrugs* The only DM who lets us take it admits he doesn't have the time to be doing that himself.
Then again, pulling something very similar to the schrodinger's wizard approach up there (a wizard with wizard followers and cohort, because he was trying to start his own mage skill) has lead to a flat house rull that no arcane spell caster will ever serve as a cohort or follower again at that table... they're considered "too prideful to take orders."

Gluttony |

With a leadership score of at least 10, you can take a Dragonne (Bestiary 3, pg 104, CR7) as a cohort. You can probably manage to get multiple Dragonnes if your cohort (and so on) has high enough Cha to boost his leadership score to 10 or above as well.
It's outright stated that Dragonne cohorts have class levels, and although most are said to become barbarians, fighters, and rangers, you could make a Broodmaster Dragonne.
...And then of course the branches upon branches of cohorts and followers would happen as others have discussed above.

Tiny Coffee Golem |

With a leadership score of at least 10, you can take a Dragonne (Bestiary 3, pg 104, CR7) as a cohort. You can probably manage to get multiple Dragonnes if your cohort (and so on) has high enough Cha to boost his leadership score to 10 or above as well.
It's outright stated that Dragonne cohorts have class levels, and although most are said to become barbarians, fighters, and rangers, you could make a Broodmaster Dragonne.
...And then of course the branches upon branches of cohorts and followers would happen as others have discussed above.
Congratulations. You've just discovered how to make Crazy Cat Lady in pathfinder.

Gluttony |

Congratulations. You've just discovered how to make Crazy Cat Lady in pathfinder.
So... What you're saying is: Make every follower and cohort that doesn't qualify to be a Dragonne a catfolk?
And for good measure, a single witch level each, and cat familiars for all of them. The Dragonne's can have cats too!

Tiny Coffee Golem |

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:Congratulations. You've just discovered how to make Crazy Cat Lady in pathfinder.So... What you're saying is: Make every follower and cohort that doesn't qualify to be a Dragonne a catfolk?
And for good measure, a single witch level each, and cat familiars for all of them. The Dragonne's can have cats too!

HappyDaze |
Assuming Stabbity is right:
Take Leadership. have your cohort be a master summoner. Have all your followers be master summoners.
Have your cohort take leadership. Have all his followers be master summoners as well.
Everyone of them spams Summon Monster.
Proceed with the Conquering, backed by your personal horde of monsters.
While you are free (with GM's permission) to take a Summoner (Master Summoner) as a Cohort, followers are typically restricted to NPC classes (and possibly some racial HD if it's something weak like humanoid - lizardfolk and gnolls are probably OK.)

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The number of followers you have is important. Some times it's what they can do for you that matters.
Bard : Magician
Cha base caster build.
Dweomercraft (Su): A magician can use performance to manipulate magical energies. Allies of the magician gain a +1 bonus on caster level checks, concentration checks, and attack rolls with spells and spell-like abilities. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every six levels thereafter. This ability replaces inspire courage.