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I'm reading through the threads on the PO forums and it seems, true to form, that everyone is making already comparing everything to WoW.
You're looking at the wrong MMO folks. A much better platform for comparison would be DDO, a direct port from AD&D 3.5. If you've never played DDO, the game is free-to-play and, at least for the first six levels, there is no reason to purchase anything at all.
Goblin Squad Member
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I'm reading through the threads on the PO forums and it seems, true to form, that everyone is making already comparing everything to WoW.
You're looking at the wrong MMO folks. A much better platform for comparison would be DDO, a direct port from AD&D 3.5. If you've never played DDO, the game is free-to-play and, at least for the first six levels, there is no reason to purchase anything at all.
Actually DDO is also a poor comparison, I love the game, but DDO is the very definition of a pure theme park (100% instances) with 0 PVP (well tavern brawls and duels, but nobody does those because the game is knowingly unbalanced for PVP, by design.
Eve also does free trials so that might be a much better benchmark
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Goblin Squad Member
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DDO isn't anything that should ever be used as a basis to base anything off of, MMO wise.
My dislike for that game knows no bounds. You're better off playin NWN.
In the vein of these discussions, Goblinworks has made it clear they will not be using any of the tabletop ruelset as mechanics for the game, so examples of a 3.5 port are unecessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How about let's not compare it wholesale to any extant or bygone MMO, and instead focus on the individual features that it will no doubt expand on from multiple games?
So very true. All the info we have so far is that it's an MMO, sandbox, and open PvP. Comparing it to anything with almost no information is just a waste of time. Better to say "I hope PFO has X feature from Y game" than to compare it wholesale to anything.
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Actually DDO is also a poor comparison, I love the game, but DDO is the very definition of a pure theme park (100% instances) with 0 PVP (well tavern brawls and duels, but nobody does those because the game is knowingly unbalanced for PVP, by design.
Eve also does free trials so that might be a much better benchmark
DDO is AD&D stats, AD&D classes, AD&D spells, and AD&D mechanics. Theme park vs sandbox has very little to do with those aspects of an MMO.
If you want Pathfinder to stay true to the rules, you have only a limited amount of room to change game balance or adjust mechanics for PVE or PVP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the main problem we're hitting is most people are dealing with the current crop of MMOs when they are discussing this. Yes they are Themepark vs Pathfinder Online's Sandbox, but unfortunately there has not been a recent (5 years or so) Sandbox MMO that large numbers of the Forumites have played, hence the theme of people trying to explain their ideas in terms of 'WoW' 'Rift' and 'DDO'.
I guess it boils down to people are trying to put forward their ideas using the more current/popular titles as an example to try and get the concept across, but it's the very thing they are using that is causing other people to go "NO!" at the top of their lungs.
In my eyes DDO is a WoW-clone. It is even more actiony.
Theese kind of games are not good at all for D&D...
I mean lets face it...the only thing D&D in that game are some names on monsters and things like that...
Like someone said I really hope the developers think REALLY out of the box on this one.
About the sandbox thing...just because the developers said they where going to make a sandboxy game doesn't mean this is going to be Minecraft D&D...
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my eyes DDO is a WoW-clone. It is even more actiony.
Theese kind of games are not good at all for D&D...
I mean lets face it...the only thing D&D in that game are some names on monsters and things like that...
And classes. And hit points. And AC. And ability scores. And spells. And races. And the locations. And the deities. And the magic items. And like fifty other things.
But sure, only those things.
The hit points and AC are there but they are not used like they are supposed to. I mean if you manage to roll away from an enemy is more linked to how fast you can tap that button. Rest doesn't work like its supposed to. Most skills/abilites seem to "recharge" real fast in combat which has a lot more to do with WoW than D&D 3.X.
Hence as the rules of the game is not followed at all things like classes and races are just their for show.
Sure, locations, but I mean that is such lore that you can just apply to any game. Just cause you say the game is in a certain location doesn't mean its a D&D game...
Deties...oh yeah...I'm sure DDO is full of moments where you get to roleplay your deity and that the deity makes a big difference for classes....not!
No matter what is written or said DDO is a game that is totally un-interesting for me. If you really think DDO is that good why don't you go there and play that instead?
Guys, can we lose the rampant negativity and poorly-veiled attacks? Surely we can throw ideas out onto these boards without it turning into an endless back-and-forth "NO, YOU!" episode?
hello, and welcome to the forums.
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I'm not saying DDO is good or bad. What it is is AD&D 3.5 mechanics in an MMO implementation. For good or ill.
If you don't like the way AD&D mechanics are implemented, then talk about the specifics. We don't want Pathfinder to make the same errors. If you like specific point about DDO, again, talk about why. DDO has a lot of bad points, but it also has a lot of things that are are done well.
For example: a specific from DDO that I disagree with is the manner in which prestige classes are implemented. Prestige classes are purchased via enhancement points instead of as actual class levels. I would much rather see prestige classes implemented as per RAW.
WoW does not lend itself well to this kind of discussion, mechanically it has little in common with AD&D.
I hope it's not like WoW. I'm so burned out on that paradigm I doubt I would play Pathfinder Online if it is like WoW. I don't even want the green, blue, purple magic item hierarchy. I just want magic item names like Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hopefully Players will be able to make their own stuff. 'Stuff' being Weapons, Armor, Magical Items of all stripes, alchemical potions, food, housing, even containers such as barrels and jugs.
Okay, the last couple of parts are probably stretching, but imagine being able to make your weapon. Not spanking the same g%$&%$n boss and doing the same damn safety dance for weeks or months on end, just get the materials, hunt down a PC or NPC crafter if you can't perform a step yourself (ie make the weapon/make it masterwork and then enchant it) and voila, your +3 Flaming Longsword, the Red Drake's Tooth, is ready. There are probably hundreds more out there, but g&+ d+$mit, THIS IS YOUR SWORD!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hopefully Players will be able to make their own stuff. 'Stuff' being Weapons, Armor, Magical Items of all stripes, alchemical potions, food, housing, even containers such as barrels and jugs.
Okay, the last couple of parts are probably stretching, but imagine being able to make your weapon. Not spanking the same g%@&&&n boss and doing the same damn safety dance for weeks or months on end, just get the materials, hunt down a PC or NPC crafter if you can't perform a step yourself (ie make the weapon/make it masterwork and then enchant it) and voila, your +3 Flaming Longsword, the Red Drake's Tooth, is ready. There are probably hundreds more out there, but g#! d!!mit, THIS IS YOUR SWORD!
Can't you already do this in, like, every game out there?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I might be wrong, but I think he means as the content...crafting the sword, gathering the mats, the crafting, and enchanting would be equivalent to the content involved in raiding for weeks or months...it might even be your sole focus during this period. Could you imagine not running a mission for weeks or months, but still having your labor result in a cool piece of gear?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I might be wrong, but I think he means as the content...crafting the sword, gathering the mats, the crafting, and enchanting would be equivalent to the content involved in raiding for weeks or months...it might even be your sole focus during this period. Could you imagine not running a mission for weeks or months, but still having your labor result in a cool piece of gear?
I didn't get that impression from what he said.
Also, how do you make those weeks or months compelling enough that people actually bother?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know, that is why I clarified what he could have intended. I actually doubt he meant it exactly how I interpreted either...probably somewhere in between.
As far as compelling people...The fun of it is compulsion enough. Why do you play MMOs? Some, such as myself, would enjoy the sandbox-iness of self driven missions and goals. The creation of gear that requires this time and energy would be an amazing feat.
This is exactly how it is Saga of Ryzom. It could take months of work to make the very best gear. And there are only a handful of players who can crafts such gear (because it takes months...if not years to master crafting, even only focusing on crafting). And, this gear deteriorates through use and cannot be repaired. But, in that game there are no theme park missions past the initial factional rep ones, so everything else is player driven. As will probably be the case with PFO, since so much of the everyday content is player-driven, there is an event team that runs "official events" directing the flow of a storyline.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sorry, KitNyx is correct. I meant, rather than everyone running around in the same gear dropped off the same bosses enchanted in exactly the same way, items would have their own 'history', if you will.
Items should drop off Monsters. That's a given, and a Holy Grail of Gaming, Tabletop and Electronic both. But at the same time Player Crafting should remain just as viable a method of 'empowering' your character as taking the Monster/Bad Guy/Farmer Joe's items and using them yourself.
Being able to pick a weapon's appearance ala the Creator Function of the Neverwinter Nights games, being able to mine the ore/cut down the tree/harvest the rare herbs/slay the magical beast to make the item/get the materials required to make the Enchantments 'stick' to the item, being able to be and remain different in some small way to the 4,499 other players out there with every item you have would go a long way to keeping Pathfinder Online unique and fresh in the stale MMO Market.
At the risk of more blunt trauma to the head, look at WoW with their brand new Transmogrification system. Basically after over 6 years of players throwing virgin sacrifices at the Company in complaint that at end-game everyone looked like clones of each other, they finally implemented a system where a player can take an item of the same 'type' as the item they are currently wearing and 'transmog' it, using the skin of the first item to replace the skin of the second item that they are wearing.
Players don't want to be identical to each other, or at least not without some pretty heavy concessions. A group of players Roleplaying as Hellknights might appreciate everyone wearing similar armor, but a group of players Roleplaying as an Adventuring Group might only want small parts of their assemble to look the same, to give them a sense of connection, but still being able to pursue their own idealised vision of their character (within bounds of programming skill, naturally)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being able to pick a weapon's appearance ala the Creator Function of the Neverwinter Nights games, being able to mine the ore/cut down the tree/harvest the rare herbs/slay the magical beast to make the item/get the materials required to make the Enchantments 'stick' to the item, being able to be and remain different in some small way to the 4,499 other players out there with every item you have would go a long way to keeping Pathfinder Online unique and fresh in the stale MMO Market.
But what I'm telling you is that what you're describing wouldn't be unique or fresh. Other MMOs have tried various permutations of these very ideas.
So, I mean, it's certainly a cool idea. But it's not cool by virtue of how unique or rebellious it is. It's cool because it's cool.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I would find the play fun. I do not play MMOs to acquire gear, I do so to socialize and to do what I enjoy (like crafting...the act of). The whole endeavor is simply an excuse to do something with friends. The fact that the materials collected allows us to make a few pieces of really cool gear is only a bonus, but the goal was met in the playing of the game. The fun is in the trip, not just the reward. A job is work you do for a reward, playing an MMO is not a job to me, hanging out with friends is not a job to me.
I agree with you that some will not find this effort fun. For those people there will be other challenges to place themselves upon...it is a sandbox, they are welcome to place themselves on any task they can think of. And, I am sure people like me who want to craft will be happy to sell or trade them the gear they want. Especially if we are in the same guild/clan and they are using the gear to protect me. Besides, the acquisition of these mats will be done through hunting rare/powerful spawns and raiding dungeons/castles...what's not to like?
(btw, for your own info, I don't "beg the question" means what you think it does. It does not mean "forces us to ask this question...". An argument begs the question in its form, not function. It either begs the question or does not, but doing so does not "beg", demand, or suggest a specific question. It is simply the name of a type of logical fallacy in which the conclusion is assumed in the argument. An example would be "god X exists because his/her holy scriptures tell me so", the fallacy comes into effect because the only way the scriptures would have divine validity is if X existed to give it such...so it becomes a type of circular argument...a bad one. *grin*
EDIT: Oh, and that is "g" god, not "G" God...I am not making any claims about the state of RL.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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But what I'm telling you is that what you're describing wouldn't be unique or fresh. Other MMOs have tried various permutations of these very ideas.
So, I mean, it's certainly a cool idea. But it's not cool by virtue of how unique or rebellious it is. It's cool because it's cool.
True, but I doubt we'll ever be able to have a 'totally unique' concept in Pathfinder Online to the extent that it has never been done before. Humans build off what they have seen before, some think inside the box to do this, others go outside of it to do this.
All we can do is hope that our ideas, counter-ideas and debates can help Goblinworks in some small way build a Game that will shuck the whole 'it's always been done this way' design philosophy and still make a game that is understandable and accessible to a broad spectrum of Gamers.
But to build off my admittedly meandering and fragmented posts, imagine that the (how I LOATHE the term!) Best In Slot item for your current build doesn't drop in the World? It's made, by you or another player, who has trained to become talented enough to Craft it with the materials you want and/or the enchantments you desire.
Smiths who can forge you Steel/Cold Iron/Silvered/Mithril/Adamantite/OTHER weapons and armor, Leatherworkers who can make you a variety of armor from hides both Mundane and Magical, Mages who can either enchant the item or point you in the right direction for the reagents you will need.
Crafting shouldn't 'crap out' for 90% of your charcters lifetime. Smithing in WoW is hilarious stupid, you can spend weeks grinding the materials for a weapon because your damn tanking sword won't drop off that stupid boss, then a week after you finally get the damn thing built, he drops nothing BUT the damn tanking sword. And you can't improve your existing weapon any further.
Hopefully with Pathfinder Online we'll avoid the "ARGGGGGH! More Numbers!" black hole Blizzard threw themselves into and it won't just be piling on zeroes to your dps that makes entering the next 'stage' of the game possible, but being able to go back and either build yourself a better weapon or going out and buying yourself an entirely new one if your enchantment selection ends up being less-than-effective against the monsters of a new region.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with you that some will not find this effort fun. For those people there will be other challenges to place themselves upon...it is a sandbox, they are welcome to place themselves on any task they can think of. And, I am sure people like me who want to craft will be happy to sell or trade them the gear they want. Especially if we are in the same guild/clan and they are using the gear to protect me. Besides, the acquisition of these mats will be done through hunting rare/powerful spawns and raiding dungeons/castles...what's not to like?
The people who want to craft exceptional gear without having to spend weeks or months of not doing anything compelling will probably find something to dislike.
Again, I'm not saying that crafting and the processes behind it are necessarily not compelling. I'm saying that you need to figure out ways to make those processes compelling in order to justify asking players to spend weeks or months on them before they see a material reward.
Requiring a player to spend a week chopping down trees is not a compelling process, unless that player really has a think for being a lumberjack.
Requiring a player to adventure across the wilderness into an ancient tomb in order to uncover a rare artifact that must be forged into the blade of your new weapon, however, is compelling. You probably can't justify weeks or months of that, but you might be able to figure out a mix of many different activities that in aggregate can require weeks or months, and as long as each step of the process remains compelling, you can end up with a good system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Crafting shouldn't 'crap out' for 90% of your charcters lifetime. Smithing in WoW is hilarious stupid, you can spend weeks grinding the materials for a weapon because your damn tanking sword won't drop off that stupid boss, then a week after you finally get the damn thing built, he drops nothing BUT the damn tanking sword. And you can't improve your existing weapon any further.
Well, I mean, you totally can improve your existing weapon further, though, right? That's what enchantments are, after all. A top-tier enchanted crafted weapon may well be superior to an unenchanted boss drop, even though the boss drop might be superior to the base crafted weapon.
But your argument appears to be one of personal opinion - that the best items in the game should be player-crafted. I'm not sure I disagree, though I think it's reasonable to require that the best crafted items be crafted from materials only obtainable through some of the most difficult challenges the game has to offer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh agreed. Regardless of how an item is procured, either through beating an enemy into a sticky red jelly on the floor or as the reward of leveling the relevant crafting skill, neither path should just be a cake-walk.
Relative Difficulty should also play a part. Yes a +1 Sword should not be difficult for either path. Getting a +5 Holy Vicious Longsword should be something that makes you cry rivers of Chuluthu's blood when it's finally all said and done.
I guess I just want to see Items worth a damn more than just vendor-value. I want to see players be given a way to flip the bird to the all-powerful and thoroughily sadistic Random Number Generator Gods if/when they are continually denied. I wish for Players to have something other to do than go out and beat up Monster/Other Players, even if it is just making items. Crafting should be something that is valid and valuable throughout the leveling process, not just at the very first and very last levels.
Enchantments can only do so much in a WoW-type setting where you must be X-level to wield this, but once you reach Y-Level you'll never use it again. Problem is I can enchant a one-handed sword from Vanilla WoW with an Enchantment like Crusader and then do the same to a one-handed sword from Cataclysm WoW .... but the Cataclysm Weapon will STILL be miles ahead, enchantment or not.
Using the above system, the power levels of the weapons are still roughly the same, it's the materials and the enchantments that make the difference. A +2 Mithril Longsword is superior to a +2 Longsword, but a +2 Mithril Longsword is slightly inferior to a +3 Longsword. It becomes less a 'how can we stack this to hell?' but 'how do we make the base-weapon the best it can be before we start enchanting?'.
Players should hopefully not need to run around with cloned gear. Players should hopefully be able to make their own items and gear, customized to a certain extent, to suit their own Skill-Sets and with a moderate amount of visual customization.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I want to see players be given a way to flip the bird to the all-powerful and thoroughily sadistic Random Number Generator Gods if/when they are continually denied.
Many MMO designers noticed this very problem, and addressed it. In WoW, for instance, end-game bosses typically drop guaranteed tokens that can be exchanged in sufficient quantity for extremely strong gear. You don't have to rely on the RNG. If it just so happens to drop an item that you need, that's awesome. But even if it doesn't, after a couple runs you'll be able to straight up pick a piece of gear to add to your equipment, guaranteed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Requiring a player to spend a week chopping down trees is not a compelling process, unless that player really has a think for being a lumberjack.
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i like that. if each activity in game would be interesting for at least someone, then natural distribution would occur. so, people that like to chop wood, would chop wood. people that like to chop people, would chop people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i like that. if each activity in game would be interesting for at least someone, then natural distribution would occur....
Requiring a player to spend a week chopping down trees is not a compelling process, unless that player really has a think for being a lumberjack.
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If by "natural distribution" you mean "economy-crippling lumber shortage," then sure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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i like that. if each activity in game would be interesting for at least someone, then natural distribution would occur....
Requiring a player to spend a week chopping down trees is not a compelling process, unless that player really has a think for being a lumberjack.
...If by "natural distribution" you mean "economy-crippling lumber shortage," then sure.
shortages lead to higher profit margins. i can live with that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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shortages lead to higher profit margins. i can live with that.i like that. if each activity in game would be interesting for at least someone, then natural distribution would occur....
Requiring a player to spend a week chopping down trees is not a compelling process, unless that player really has a think for being a lumberjack.
...If by "natural distribution" you mean "economy-crippling lumber shortage," then sure.
Yes, as one of the two people willing to waste his life away monotonously chopping fake wood, I'm sure you can.
The rest of the game's population, however, probably isn't willing to live with that, or the inability to craft anything that comes along with it.
In case you're still having trouble understanding what I'm saying:
If you make chopping wood something that sucks to do, but also make having lumber necessary to craft a lot of stuff, you game's economy will just up and die. Very few people will be willing to chop lumber (because it sucks), but a few will do it just because the lumber will be worth a lot of money. So, cool, now you have a little bit of lumber. Except everyone needs it, because it's necessary to craft a lot of stuff. So now a lot of people are disappointed because they can't afford to pay the sky-high prices for the lumber they need, and therefore very few crafted goods are available.
Supply and demand works fine in real life, because people are willing to do things that suck for real money. It doesn't work as well in a game, where people are there to have fun.
You're making a game. Make the whole thing at least tolerably fun, or don't even bother.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're making a game. Make the whole thing at least tolerably fun, or don't even bother.
of course. an MMORPG. which means there are roles to choose from. not everyone has to like every role. i have met plenty of people that couldn't stand tanking or healing. does that mean tanking and healing sucks? some people like it. some don't.
if a game has woodcutting that at least some people are willing to engage in, it has good enough woodcutting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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if a game has woodcutting that at least some people are willing to engage in, it has good enough woodcutting.
No, it doesn't. If the game does not have woodcutting that is enjoyable enough to allow the game's economy to function in a way that the game's player base considers acceptable, it doesn't have good enough woodcutting.
Again, this is not the real world we're talking about. This is a game. If you make your economy a joke, people will not tough it out and make the best of it. They will take their toys and go home.
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Goblin Squad Member
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if a game has woodcutting that at least some people are willing to engage in, it has good enough woodcutting.No, it doesn't. If the game does not have woodcutting that is enjoyable enough to allow the game's economy to function in a way that the game's player base considers acceptable, it doesn't have good enough woodcutting.
but entire player's base is not going to (and isn't supposed to) mine anyway. only part of them are going to mine. the part that find it acceptable.
edit: apologizes for using "mine" instead of "cut wood"; my mind wondered to EVE :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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And yet people mine in Eve.if a game has woodcutting that at least some people are willing to engage in, it has good enough woodcutting.No, it doesn't. If the game does not have woodcutting that is enjoyable enough to allow the game's economy to function in a way that the game's player base considers acceptable, it doesn't have good enough woodcutting.
Because mining in EVE is compelling enough for people to do it.
All I'm telling you to do is to make sure things are compelling enough that people will do them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All I'm telling you to do is to make sure things are compelling enough that people will do them.
agreed. compelling enough for enough people to do it. i'm not saying that things have to be made bad on purpose. but they also don't have to be made for everyone's pleasure. those rarely end well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And yet people mine in Eve.Because mining in EVE is compelling enough for people to do it.
All I'm telling you to do is to make sure things are compelling enough that people will do them.
Really? I found it tedious and always put up buy orders to get other people to perform that tedium.
Mining is a requirement in Eve, but I wouldn't call it compelling.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And yet people mine in Eve.Because mining in EVE is compelling enough for people to do it.
All I'm telling you to do is to make sure things are compelling enough that people will do them.
Really? I found it tedious and always put up buy orders to get other people to perform that tedium.
Mining is a requirement in Eve, but I wouldn't call it compelling.
My argument really proves itself: I'm saying that you need to make your system compelling enough that people are willing to participate in it. EVE's mining system is clearly compelling enough, because people participate in it. Whether the compelling factors are tied to the payoff or the process is irrelevant.
I'm just cautioning against making something too tedious and too drawn out for people to bother with. It sounded like HalfOrcHeavyMetal was arguing for a crafting system where you would pour weeks or months into a single item, and that sounds a little too involved to really grab people. You should be able to produce an exceptional item in a couple days' play time at most (assuming that you're already at the requisite skill level). The only items that should take longer are the absolute strongest in the game, and I'm talking on par with Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker during vanilla WoW.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My argument really proves itself: I'm saying that you need to make your system compelling enough that people are willing to participate in it. EVE's mining system is clearly compelling enough, because people participate in it. Whether the compelling factors are tied to the payoff or the process is irrelevant.I'm just cautioning against making something too tedious and too drawn out for people to bother with. It sounded like HalfOrcHeavyMetal was arguing for a crafting system where you would pour weeks or months into a single item, and that sounds a little too involved to really grab people. You should be able to produce an exceptional item in a couple days' play time at most (assuming that you're already at the requisite skill level). The only items that should take longer are the absolute strongest in the game, and I'm talking on par with Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker during vanilla WoW.
Scott, wouldn't that depend on how common you wanted exceptional items to be?
It strikes me there are 3 different potential ways to make an item rare in a game.
1) Make the item uncraftable and only drop a limited quantity into the game (or only drop a limited quantity of the crafting materials for the item into the game).
2) Make the crafting resources neccesary very rare and relpenish at a very slow rate.
3) Make the item take so much effort and time to craft that very few people will be willing to do it.
The difference between 3 and the first two methods is that 1 & 2 are just luck of the draw... you happen to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with the right roll and you get the item....like winning the lottery. With #3, if the player really wants the item....they can obtain, they just have to be willing to put that much effort into it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My argument really proves itself: I'm saying that you need to make your system compelling enough that people are willing to participate in it. EVE's mining system is clearly compelling enough, because people participate in it. Whether the compelling factors are tied to the payoff or the process is irrelevant.I'm just cautioning against making something too tedious and too drawn out for people to bother with. It sounded like HalfOrcHeavyMetal was arguing for a crafting system where you would pour weeks or months into a single item, and that sounds a little too involved to really grab people. You should be able to produce an exceptional item in a couple days' play time at most (assuming that you're already at the requisite skill level). The only items that should take longer are the absolute strongest in the game, and I'm talking on par with Thunderfury, Blessed Blade of the Windseeker during vanilla WoW.
Scott, wouldn't that depend on how common you wanted exceptional items to be?
It strikes me there are 3 different potential ways to make an item rare in a game.
1) Make the item uncraftable and only drop a limited quantity into the game (or only drop a limited quantity of the crafting materials for the item into the game).
2) Make the crafting resources neccesary very rare and relpenish at a very slow rate.
3) Make the item take so much effort and time to craft that very few people will be willing to do it.
The difference between 3 and the first two methods is that 1 & 2 are just luck of the draw... you happen to be lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with the right roll and you get the item....like winning the lottery. With #3, if the player really wants the item....they can obtain, they just have to be willing to put that much effort into it.
4) Provide the materials for the item as a reward for the accomplishment of truly challenging tasks. No luck of the draw - you overcome the challenge, you come closer to crafting your item.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again you're putting the very worst spin on things.
No it should not take months to make an 'average' item. A day, or maybe a week or maybe even two for anything not heading towards 'end-game' level.
+1 Sword, a day's work at most.
Same sword, enchanting it up to +3 Flaming, probably a week.
Turning that same sword into a +5 Holy Vicious weapon, yes, a month. At that level of power, the players should be finding the materials for their crafting in the dungeons of Dragons or Demonic Cults under the City's Temple.
The actual 'crafting' of an item should not take that long at all, but gathering the resources and planning how they will all go together should.
That's the other thing I am hoping for. Crafting does not come with a cheat-sheet, and there are a variety of ingredients that you can use for most enchantments or alchemical goods.
On one hand, giving players access to their basic stuff is great, but being able to go out and research your own 'blends' through trial and error would be a lot of fun. Whole Guilds could become devoted to the topic of compiling lists of the required components, and powerful casters who make their living creating those same 'end game' enchantments might be willing to go to extraordinary lengths to protect their reciepes, such as ordering 'false' ingredients and even hunting down their rivals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Again you're putting the very worst spin on things.
No it should not take months to make an 'average' item.
Who said anything about average?
I said it should not take weeks or months to create an exceptional item.
I literally used the word "exceptional."
I think crafting anything except perhaps a handful of the most powerful items in the game should be a relatively short-term task. On the order of hours worth of game time spent to completion, not weeks or months.
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To return to the wood chopping discussion a few posts back, may seemingly monotonous tasks can be enlivened via mini-games. A simple reflex push CHOP! at the correct time game can add a lot of fun to tedious tasks.
Furthermore players who wished to be champion woodcutters could train skills to unlock powerups and increase yield or even be able to play the higher level games (choop the ironwood).