I'm curious about what will be done with the reach weapons. There were several D&D game I played (IWD/IWD2/NWN/NWN2/toee/pool of radiance/BG2/etc.,), but the only one that implemented reach weapons having the distance advantage was toee.
Will these weapons be treated the same as all other melee weapons in PFO?
I really hope not. They kind of lose their appeal if they don't have reach.
Thanks for the reply.
I would love to see reach weapons having the advantage to hit enemies at distance, although it seems not many games use the collision mechanics. Also would like to see enemies being able to fly & climb walls, even body part damages, which would make encounters more varied, and more reasons to use different types of weapons.
Goblin Squad Member
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Reach Weapons would be awesome, but what about if we end up with the dreaded '8-foot zone' that the Hunter-class in WoW suffered, with players 'hovering' in the region where the Hunter's ranged attacks were unuseable but outside of melee range?
Ideally, reach weapons in an MMO should provide their reach, but should suffer a slight penalty to hit and/or to damage when used upon an enemy that gets up close and personal, ie 'behind' the effective arc of the weapon.
There should be a penalty for using Reach Weapons, naturally, as they add a certain level of menace to characters trying to close in on an enemy using them, but at the same point, there should be an advantage to them as well that is as close to mechanically balanced as we can get.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thing about that is most pnp say that reach weapons are harder to use against upclose enemies but that is not true( unless you refuse to shift grip) the disadvantage is slower atks and being twohanded.
Glaives/Guisarme are 7-8.5 ft long, "choking up" on one would result in an unwieldy balance (at best nothing like the weapon the warrior is trained in) and positioning. Having that 5 foot pole sticking out the back would keep you from swinging it very easily...especially with any power behind it. Other than the whip, are there any reach weapons that are not automatically 2 Handed?
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True that hitting with the point would be difficult but that is what the haft is for. I have used a staff and some others, if someone gets that close you use more then just the ends, the middle hurts too and parry followed by a kick also works.
The idea that a weapon is used in only one way is absurd.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Usually being able to hit someone farther away is an enormous advantage. This means that for reach weapons to be balanced they need to have a severe drawback (just as they do in PFRPG).
This in turn usually leads to people not using them at all or (if the advantage is deemed worth it) everyone will use them in favor over the short weapons.
So I don't think we will see reach weapons, but if they managed to get them right I would be delighted.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah true, well I was considering only using the part of the weapon designed to inflict the greatest damage in normal usage. I suppose I cannot argue with the fact that a mix of hit with any part available and hand to hand combat would be melee too. Although at that point a gauntleted fist or two might be more effective.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Typically a halberd will have a sharp point on the end of the haft opposite the business end, for stabbing people who get too close. That translates well into "less damage at point-blank range."
The disadvantage of reach weapons is that they do less damage or require more hands or lack a special ability of other weapons of the same category.
Collision mechanics aren't used in WoW. They are used in EVE, I believe they are used in DDO, and they are used in FFXI. In EVE they can even play an important role in forcing a ship out of range of it's logi (healer/buffer), or to prevent it from aligning to warp, or even bumping it out of jump or docking range. DDO may have allowed you to move through party members or even all other PCs. It might have even allowed passage through NPCs/monsters if your tumble skill was high enough but I don't really recall. I just remember getting swarmed back into a corner by mobs on several occasions. In FFXI, there was a short delay before you could move through another player/NPC and as long as you remained within one you could continue to move unhindered. So if there was a big crowd of people (around the auction house) you could move from one side of said crowd to another with minimal delays.
On topic I'm all for it. I want to be able poke my spear at the enemy while standing behind my trusty dwarf shield-bearer. That would be Mr. Burns excellent.
DDO has collision mechanics only between PCs and NPCs, probably to avoid griefing. But it shows anyway that it shouldn't be too hard to implement in PFO, and it would add a lot of interesting gameplay and allow for differentiation when it comes to reach weapons - such as allowing players to attack behind an ally for an example, making for a more interesting tank that has to physically bodyblock enemies while his team mates attack the target instead of plain old "agro".
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Goblin Squad Member
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DDO has collision mechanics only between PCs and NPCs, probably to avoid griefing. But it shows anyway that it shouldn't be too hard to implement in PFO...
Collision between PCs and NPCs may well be easier because the game client running on the player's computer can know exactly what the NPC is going to do. When I play with my wife, and one of us is lagging, it's easy to see our characters running off down the hall even though we're not actually doing that. There might be some significant challenges in implementing collision between two players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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DDO has collision mechanics only between PCs and NPCs, probably to avoid griefing. But it shows anyway that it shouldn't be too hard to implement in PFO, and it would add a lot of interesting gameplay and allow for differentiation when it comes to reach weapons - such as allowing players to attack behind an ally for an example, making for a more interesting tank that has to physically bodyblock enemies while his team mates attack the target instead of plain old "agro".
You also seem to be missing the amount of things they had to do about collision mechanics. Basically because of the way the NPCs got lost in mobs etc... a handful of players running large groups of enemies in dungeons would bring the whole server to it's knees, basically every enemy added to a mob of enemies made the pathing calculations exponentially more complex. That is why they started adding in systems like dungeon alert, where if a certain amount of enemies was agro'd at a time, they would debuff you, toss in auto stuns/slows on you to ensure that you would get owned if you agro'd more then they wanted you to.
You also seem to be missing the amount of things they had to do about collision mechanics. Basically because of the way the NPCs got lost in mobs etc... a handful of players running large groups of enemies in dungeons would bring the whole server to it's knees, basically every enemy added to a mob of enemies made the pathing calculations exponentially more complex. That is why they started adding in systems like dungeon alert, where if a certain amount of enemies was agro'd at a time, they would debuff you, toss in auto stuns/slows on you to ensure that you would get owned if you agro'd more then they wanted you to.
DDO has collision mechanics only between PCs and NPCs, probably to avoid griefing. But it shows anyway that it shouldn't be too hard to implement in PFO, and it would add a lot of interesting gameplay and allow for differentiation when it comes to reach weapons - such as allowing players to attack behind an ally for an example, making for a more interesting tank that has to physically bodyblock enemies while his team mates attack the target instead of plain old "agro".
Well, they should hopefully be able to get around that by using a much more modern engine.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Only way around server-side issues is a beefier server. Beefier servers have nontrivial capital and/or operating expenses. That means less money available for other stuff (since the launch budget isn't going to get bigger) and less stuff added afterwards (since the price point is already at the top of the estimated Laffer curve.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reach weapons are only as useful as ranged weapons, i.e. they're only effective if there's some way to stop a melee-range enemy from attacking you while you're using it. So either have someone stand in front of you, or attack from higher ground, or through an arrow slit/murder hole.
Basically, I'd treat reach weapons like a short-range ranged weapon. Maybe have thrown weapons use similar rules.