Goblin Squad Member
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For some time now, I have been trying to come up with a solution to a problem that I percieve in modern MMORPGs: the reputation grind.
I'm a time-served player of World of Warcraft up until Cataclysm. A number of factors led to me dropping WoW but chief among them was the loss of immersion that I felt and the chief contributor to this in my opinion was the lack of interaction with the various factions in the game. Blizzard had spent a great deal of time in crafting these unique and flavourful factions and then implemented a very shallow system of interaction where the player was rewarded for doing the same quests over and over daily for rewards that only began to shine at the top level.
In my eyes, spending so much time with one faction should result in a much greater reward: immersion. I view factions as something akin to a career. I put my hours in to raising my standing and for that I expect greater reward (which happens in the way things are set up at the moment) but also in greater challenge. As I become better known to a faction, I want to have them come to me with problems! Otherwise the faction simply becomes another time sink for little reward other than access to equipment which eventually becomes obsolete.
However, in my system I make a distinction between reputation and faction. Faction is what is what reputation is in Warcraft. Reputation, however, is a multi-tiered resource which represents a character's involvement with the larger community (NPC community that is). The system is split into what I would term 'settlement, region and nation'. The lowest tier is settlement, which would increase quite quickly as you complete tasks for quest givers within any given settlement. It would also marginally increase your standing in the region. Conferred bonuses would be improved buying and selling prices in that settlement, the award of more difficult quests geared to that settlement and the recognition of NPCs as you were in and around the settlement.
Region standing would confer similar bonuses, albeit along the lines of getting a lower level if discount but across all settlements in that region, quests that would be geared towards the region and also wider recognition perhaps with the bestowal of unique titles, etc.
Nation standing would help in driving the endgame. In my system, the intention was that all of the nation levels were linked and that players could drive the politics of the game by completing quests for their nation that would be antagonistic towards other nations thus driving the war/peace state of each nation's relationship.
Nations rewards would confer improved prices across the nation, quests geared at a nation level, including PvP quests for those nations at war with one another and the purchase of unique rewards that to in with the lore of each nation.
Obviously rewards could be up for debate and my intention was to implement a questing system which would deliver the same framework for quests but the content would be different so that you didn't have a roleplaying situation where 1000's of players have killed the same mob.
What are the thoughts of you guys on a system like that?
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It's interesting. I hate to bring pen and paper mechanics to the discussion (since as we all know a new medium requires a new message), but I feel that the factons in Pathfinder Society Field Guide are worth examining.
Essentially as you perform side tasks to benifit a faction you gain an equal number of fame and Prestiege points. Fame represents your status within the faction and unlocks benifits at key points. Prestiege is spent to aquire favors like spellcasting services, gear, or personal housing. Some benifits are specific to a faction (like the Silver Crusades shiny wayfinder), and some can be provIded from any faction (like a townhouse). The kicker is that you can only be a member of a single faction at a time and switching teams normally carries a penalty. There is also the assumption that all players are Pathfinders which may or may not be true (I think it likely won't but am speculating). I do like having both a total favor vale and points to spend on shinies though.
As for you proposed reputation system, it seems okay, but honest I want to specifically work for the Pathfinders or the Red Mantis Assassians or the Daughers of Babba Yagga and gain their favor.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The two aren't mutually exclusive. Reputation works as a yardstick of fame across a nation whereas the factions could feed in at any of those levels. For example, a local militia would feed into a town level reputation whereas working for the government of Pitax feeds into nation level.
However, a faction need not be tied into the reputation system. You could have independent factions such as the Red Mantis which would have no tie to the reputation system whatsoever (counter intuitive in fact, assassins want as little reputation with the authorities as possible!).
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Ah. I see I had misunderstood you.
Do you need to track your renowun across the land though? Won't most senior characters have some amount of fame due to being highly skilled at the varied arts of killing things and taking their stuff?
Seems kind of like the general alliance / horde rep in wow. Perhaps a bigger problem is that a bonus of genral discount is either irrelevant (because there is nothing to buy from nps - unlikely) or seen as a penalty applied to new players rather than a bonus gained by famous ones.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ah. I see I had misunderstood you.
Do you need to track your renowun across the land though? Won't most senior characters have some amount of fame due to being highly skilled at the varied arts of killing things and taking their stuff?
Seems kind of like the general alliance / horde rep in wow. Perhaps a bigger problem is that a bonus of genral discount is either irrelevant (because there is nothing to buy from nps - unlikely) or seen as a penalty applied to new players rather than a bonus gained by famous ones.
Yes, they would have some level of fame and this would be applied through reputation. This would translate into reduced costs ("I heard Player 1 is in town! He's famous! I hope he shops here!"), improved NPC rewards ("Player 1 saved us! We should permit him to purchase from our select armoury!") and immersive rewards (Guard: "Hail Player 1! You saved our town from sure destruction! I salute you!").
New players have no real penalty as they would be purchasing at the same cost anyone who has no rep with said nation would be. I'd also be on the side of using a phased approach, where your discount increases the better known you become. Never to the point of being free from NPC vendors, but certainly fairly hefty discounts.
I should ensure you see the distinction here though: reputation is used as a way of measuring 'fame' on a large scale and faction is your 'fame' within one organization. Reputation rewards would be things like discounts, immersive rewards and 'endgame' quests potentially ("Player 1 is a great hero, he can defeat the dragon that currently threatens Town A!") or ("We're at war with Nation Z! Player 2 is one of our greatest warriors! Summon him and we'll charge him with leading a band of warriors against our foe!").
The system I propose is all about immersion. In an industry where maximum reward is given for minimal effort, it may not seem inherently fair but I think that in the long-run it awards everyone equally.
I'd not get too hung up on what the rewards were though, they are pretty fluid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally what I'd like to see, is player controlled factions. Designed specifically to be separate from your normal guild/alliance/kingdom/empire. Actual missions for these groups could be player determined. A spy faction could even say reward you for selling out small details about your alliance (obviously such a faction would not publicly list any involvement you have), or someone else could make a knights of justice type faction that specializes in bounty hunting etc... These could be designed in a way to encourage even active partnership between people who otherwise are complete enemies. (2 nations who actively are at war with each-other, during a cease fire since both of them are in the bounty hunters alliance, both go out and together set up an ambush for a known PK that was recently seen.
Kingdoms could then be allowed to petition missions for these factions, but not necessarily be aware of who is doing them. (IE if a king posts to the spy faction for war plans for 10k gold, he may receive back information addressed from the faction (possibly looked over by the leader who would judge the competence of the source himself as to whether he'd stake the faction's reputation on the source chosen). But because of the spy guild as a median the actual spy may not be discovered (as even the kingdom buying the information would not know who the leak was.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that for player-driven factions and nations, formal frameworks need not be required. Perhaps something similar to the Eve system where both individuals and organisations can set visual rep levels against one another would suffice.
A reward structure on a player-driven function would be too open for abuse. What I propose is purely for the NPC/PvE side of the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that for player-driven factions and nations, formal frameworks need not be required. Perhaps something similar to the Eve system where both individuals and organisations can set visual rep levels against one another would suffice.
A reward structure on a player-driven function would be too open for abuse. What I propose is purely for the NPC/PvE side of the game.
Well by a reward structure I am also thinking rewards that come straight out of peoples pockets. IE kingdom A hires a spy to get information from kingdom B. The reward comes from Kingdom A's treasury. Same going if kingdom B, opts to retaliate by hiring from a faction of mercenaries to aid them in their counter attack. These are technically ideas that will wind up happening anyway, though it could be interesting to actually have a mechanic to help co-ordinate it within the game, rather then give an edge to those who set up private forums vent servers, or some out of game way to deal under the table.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO
1. Faction/Rep should only rarely, if ever, "unlock" things. The vast majority of services/goods should be available to everyone, at least so long as a positive standing is maintained. An example of a possible exception might be having slightly different service lists from various faiths, but still with a great deal of overlap.
2. Faction/Rep should be of secondary concern, and accrue naturally over a character's career.
3. Character's should start with faction/rep appropriate to their character generation (I recall EQ having something along these lines). If you are a member of a faith that faith should have a basic level of accept for you. If you are an elf other elves should like you more then if you were dwarf. I know racism might not be PC, but those effeminate pointy ears should stick to singing and dancing and leave the real man's work to us dwarves.
4. Negative faction should be gained faster then positive faction. You shouldn't be able to be friends with 2 rival organization, at least not at the highest levels (eg Exalted) and in no way easily.
5. If services/goods need to be significantly limited it should be done in exchange for some form of faction currency/reward points (see EVE LP). Accrue sufficient points get nifty stuff. This holds especially true for cosmetics (I'm looking at you, Cenarion Hippogryph!).
6. It might be cool to have regional and factional reputation tracked separately. Such that moving in to a new region you would still get some of the perks from a friendly faction while you built up your regional standings. On the other hand this might just make things needlessly complicated.
1 & 5. Agreed. Rewards should be something which is largely cosmetic and should not replace other methods of attaining equipment, such as crafting and adventuring.
2. Agreed. I hated the required grind in Warcraft which was there purely as a time sink. Gain faction/rep because you want to not because you have to.
3. Again, agreed.
4. Agreed.
6. As it should accrue naturally, tracking should prove inconsequential as long as you can hide factions/rep you aren't currently involved with.