Hi,
Recently I was inspired with an idea from the Thread about how Ultimate Combat didn't support martial characters enough.
I noted a houserule which one my home groups occasionally implements in order to incorporate TOB into the PF ruleset in a more balanced way than using it as is.
Rule is:
Full BAB classes (and rogues/monks) treat char level as initiator level. You still have to meet any Manuvere preqs. (So taking Mithral Tornado as your first manuvere is not allowed, for example) and as usual you can only be in one stance at a time. Except the Stlye Master Monk who uses the style mechanic for his style feats. The Martial Study and Martial Stance feat does NOT exist.
Recovery Mechanic
There is NO RECOVERY Mechanic. This is not 4th edition. You make use a given TOB move 1/day when you select it, plus 1more for every 4 Full BAB (or Rogue/Monk levels)char levels you have. SO number of uses for a given manuvere is capped at 6/day. This is quite similar to when a class selects Stunning Fist from the CRB. Stances can be used as normal in the book (swift action to enter or change a stance. Style Master Monks are the exception, see above)
Who can use TOB moves:
Fighters, Samurai can access Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw and White Raven using thier Bonus Combat Feats.
Fighters also get access to a general feat called: Extra Combat feat. This allows fighters (and ONLY fighters) to select TOB moves using regular feats. Fighters can use the retraining class feature every 4th level to retrain a TOB Manuvere.
Paladins can access Devoted Spirit, White Raven by giving up LOH and they can select a TOB manuvere whenever the would have gained a mercy.
Rangers can access Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind, Devoted Spirit using thier combat style feats or selecting one in place of a Favored Enemy or Favored Terrain or the Spelless Ranger from APG can select a TOB move/stance in place of a Ranger Trick.
Rogues can access Shadow Hand or Tiger Claw via Rogue Talents. They can also use the Extra Rogue Talent feat to select a TOB Manuvere.
Barbarians can get Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon Via Rage powers.
Cavaliers (or any archetype that gets bonus feats) can get White Raven, Devoted Spirit or Diamond Mind via Bonus Feats.
Monk can get ANY martial style via their bonus feats.
What about 3/4 and full casters?
No Class that gets a 3/4 or full spell progression has access to TOB stuff. (unless they multiclass with a Martial class and then thier caster class levels DO NOT count as initiator levels)
Basically this makes TOB decent for all full Martial classes and pretty crap for Casters. The beauty of using TOB in this way is it allows access to the system, without making any Alteration to any of the PF classes. It sort of works like the Quigong Monk. They simply use an existing bonus feat or in some cases like the Paladin, swap a class feature for access. Making TOB Moves selectable via bonus feature also has the added benefit of allowing any existing archetype to use it.
Now what I'm hoping to achieve with this thread is for all you TOB supporters or People who believe casters still get more than martials, (They get more options EVERY time a new spell is published) to implement this into a few one shots if you just wanna try it or even into your regular home games.
After you've playtested it a bit, post here with how you thought it went.
Now, this is not merely is rant wanting to bring TOB into PF. The game is already 3.5 compatable and nothing would be gained by that.
No, the point is to give paizo a chance to see what effect this type of mechanic has on the game AND measure community interest in bringing a supplement like this to Pathfinder.
For example The book Inner Sea Magic is very good at introducing new Crunch tied Specifically to the world of Golarion. It features a number of new archetypes, variant schools of magic like Thassalion casting, Shadow Magic, Tatoo Magic etc, along with details on the casters and organisations that use them.
I'm proposing a similar thing for Martial, like a Inner Sea Combat book.
Using TOB styles as a framework, it would provide opportunity to create Golarion specific fighting styles, that could be tied to certain PF classes, countries and organisations.
People who try this Project could offer insights on how these alternate fighting styles effect thier game and maybe even provide suggested new moves that could be used by classes. Stuff like what is seen in the Iron Heart TOB school for example would fit well to the Aldori Swordlords for example.
I certainly hope this thread gives a few people something to try and if you like the idea please post back here.
Also a good idea, which unfortunately I don't have time to implement myself would be to run a few PBP's on the community forum and link it to this thread so both Paizo and the PF community could see exactly how this plays out in a game. With 3 kids and a new job, I don't have time to do it myself, but would be the first to volunteer to participate, if anyone reading this is willing to DM such a thing...
So, if you're passionate about finding some more awesome for your melee guys, please try it and post here with any feedback, view or support.
Cheers.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's any disparity?
dotted
Hi,
Recently I was inspired with an idea from the Thread about how Ultimate Combat didn't support martial characters enough.
I noted a houserule which one my home groups occasionally implements in order to incorporate TOB into the PF ruleset in a more balanced way than using it as is.
** spoiler omitted **...
TOB?
That said, stuff for Martial characters (and some stuff for fighters only) couldn't hurt that much. I am for a 'Inner Sea Combat' book myself and think its a good solid concept.
By TOB, I meant: Tome of Battle, The book of 9 Swords. It was a very awesome supplement at the end of 3.5's life.
It introduced 3 new (slightly overpowered) classes, which I'm not suggesting we allow.
The Best bit though was it introduced 9 new fighting styles, that were in effect 1 per combat powers that functioned as 'special moves' a character could pull off, along with some 'always on' fighting stances a character could assume as a swift action. The 3 classes (Warblade, Crusader and Swordsage) actually learned a number of these for free as they leveled but core classes could also learn a couple by taking a Martial Study feat (max 3 times)
Some good examples of the TOB special moves were:
Black Pearl of Doubt: For every time a foe missed you with an attack you recieved a stacking dodge bonus against that foe for 1round.
Iron Heart Surge: You could expend this manuvere to instantly end any hostile effect that was effecting you. For example, a character could use this to end being Staggered.
Adatamine Hurracane was an awesome 8th level power. You could use this to make 2 melee attacks against EVERY opponent you threatened. Like Whirlwind only better.
Thicket of Blades was one of the great stances, that let you make an AOO against any foe who took any movement in a square you threatend, including a 5ft step.
|
Let's translate these very well balanced powers.
Black Pearl of Doubt:
- let's penalize people with multiple attacks, let's slow down game even more
The marilith first attack missed, what is your new AC?, the next one has it, good. Damn, she missed again so your Ac has changed again.
Sorry,as a GM I like to throw multiple dices at the same time, colour coded for the different attacks. If not only my creature attack bonus but your AC change after each attack my work become a nightmare.
Iron Heart Surge: let's kill everyone and everything that depend on to slow you down and try t kill you. If you can end any hostile effect (apparently with a free or immediate action) you can directly remove the hostile effects from the game, it would be simpler.
Adatamine Hurracane and Thicket of Blades: simply excessive.
[/rant]
This thread would have a sense in Suggestions & homebrew, not in General discussion.
By TOB, I meant: Tome of Battle, The book of 9 Swords. It was a very awesome supplement at the end of 3.5's life.
That is very much in dispute, and I, personally, couldn't disagree more. And my impression of most Paizo staff members is that they disagree, too.
Anyway. This belongs in the House Rule forum.
Let us take a moment of silence to grieve for those lives that will be lost in the incoming flamewar.
Also, $10 that TOZ will show up.
Black Pearl of Doubt:
- let's penalize people with multiple attacks, let's slow down game even more
The marilith first attack missed, what is your new AC?, the next one has it, good. Damn, she missed again so your Ac has changed again.Sorry,as a GM I like to throw multiple dices at the same time, colour coded for the different attacks. If not only my creature attack bonus but your AC change after each attack my work become a nightmare.
If your dice are color coded why is there an issue? You know the Players AC at the start is 22 for example.
Red: a 20 Miss, AC is 24Blue: 26 hit, AC is still 24
Yellow: a 7 Miss, AC is 26
Attack routine is finished. Next round AC is Normal again. Takes less time to workout than it does to type...
Iron Heart Surge: let's kill everyone and everything that depend on to slow you down and try t kill you. If you can end any hostile effect (apparently with a free or immediate action) you can directly remove the hostile effects from the game, it would be simpler
Needs better wording I know, but the Samurai already has a similar ability to end hostile effects....
Adatamine Hurracane and Thicket of Blades: simply excessive.
Excessive? At the level you get Adamantine Hurracine the Wizard is Planar Binding 18HD outsiders and Cloning himself...
Also I didn't put the thread in Homebrew because it's about using a sample rules set to create talk/interest/feedback for a NEW PRODUCT. If anything, Maybe I should have put it in the Pathfinder Player Companion Section...
Remember, I'm not advocating a Cut/Paste of that book. It's simply the closest thing I can find to the idea that Fighters/Melee classes/Golarion could have a system for melee 'special moves' or Ha-roo-ken! whatever that could lift the power discrepency that gets bigger and bigger everytime a new Book of Magic no X comes out.
People willing to try it as I outlined above could provide some insight on how it affects thier game and make suggestions for Golarion fighting styles
BTW. I do hope TOZ and Kirth show up...
EDIT: Ninja'd by TOZ.
Personally, I always thought TOB maneuvers and stances unbalanced things for Martial characters. I tried something similar to what the OP suggested. Quite simply, as has already been stated, the adding of the maneuver/stance mechanics added a level of complexity that just didn't pay-off.
Here's something very simple that can be done, and it concerns crits with weapons:
For FULL BAB classes only...
Critical Threat: Maximum Damage, thus a Great Sword critical threat would deal 12 plus magical enhancement plus Strength modifiers
Confirmed Critical Hit: Max Damage plus whatever the crit multiplier provides. Using Great Sword 12 plus appropriate mods or 2d6 plus mods plus 2d6 plus mods.
For Rogue: Sneak Attack, rather than getting +1d6, they +1 die of damage for whatever weapon they wield, provided it is from the list of normal Rogue Weapons or a one-handed weapon (not one being wielded one-handed due to Monkey Grip).
For FULL BAB Classes, their touch AC improves by +1 per 3 levels.
For Rogue, Touch AC improves by +1 per 4 levels.
Done. Enjoy the meal.
By TOB, I meant: Tome of Battle, The book of 9 Swords. It was a very awesome supplement at the end of 3.5's life.That is very much in dispute, and I, personally, couldn't disagree more. And my impression of most Paizo staff members is that they disagree, too.
Anyway. This belongs in the House Rule forum.
Wow, your impression based on......what exactly? I'd like to hear it from the horses mouth, thank you very much.
I personally feel that Paizo hasn't touched on the subject because ToB material isn't OGL and thus, not subject to Paizo tweeking. They could come out with their version, but I think they want to cover more CORE bases than experimental supplements such as that. This is my own personal feelings, and not based on anything Paizo stated.
Black Pearl of Doubt:
- let's penalize people with multiple attacks, let's slow down game even more
The marilith first attack missed, what is your new AC?, the next one has it, good. Damn, she missed again so your Ac has changed again.
Sorry,as a GM I like to throw multiple dices at the same time, colour coded for the different attacks. If not only my creature attack bonus but your AC change after each attack my work become a nightmare.
Simple math eludes you? If everything is color-coded and you know the bonuses then it's up the the player to keep up with the records, and if your going up against Marilith then your pretty sure he'll be on top of it.
Iron Heart Surge: let's kill everyone and everything that depend on to slow you down and try to kill you. If you can end any hostile effect (apparently with a free or immediate action) you can directly remove the hostile effects from the game, it would be simpler.
When I read this, I got the distinct impression that you've never been a player that's been paralyzed by poison, immobilized for the entire encounter, and/or effects that render you completly useless (like 20+ spells) and you sit there, twiddling your thumbs while everyone else contributes. Yea, that's pretty stupid by any RPG's means. 1/day or hells, even 1/encounter effects that help you in this department aren't broken NOR do they completly negate the negative ability of the monster. 9 times out of 10 the monster is going to have the abiity to do that again in the next round, so I find very little wrong with this.
Adatamine Hurracane and Thicket of Blades: simply excessive.
Excessive because................? Adamantine Hurricane is nice IF he's surrounded by a lot of enemies that he's threatening. It's one extra attack per target, so a Double Whirlwind Attack, able to be used at 15th level......15TH LEVEL!!!! You find it excessive for someone to make two attacks against threatened foes but I'm sure your perfectly fine for that wizard to Reverse Gravity, instantly make someone dance without even a chance to save against a spell or just slay them outright. Can we say hypocritical now?
Thicket of Blades is often considered to be one of the BEST stances in the game that actually makes melee classes.....ACTUALLY DO THEIR JOBS EFFECTIVELY! Yes, with Thicket of Blades, Combat Reflexes, a Good Dex-score, a Spiked Chain, and Stand Still feat it's a great way for Melee-based classes to hold down enemies in a 10-foot area. I list the requirements because it's ridiculous that the amount of specific/focused resources one has to devote to do something fighters should be doing from the start!
"Arising from the depths of the void the Caster-Martial Disparity God stares down upon the meek creatures of flesh and mathematics that seek to threaten a creature of pure narrative and rage. It absorbs the despair as they fight amongst themselves making it ever stronger. Ancient and evil beyond measure it's black writhing form makes a mockery of taunting laughter."
"Arising from the depths of the void the Caster-Martial Disparity God stares down upon the meek creatures of flesh and mathematics that seek to threaten a creature of pure narrative and rage. It absorbs the despair as they fight amongst themselves making it ever stronger. Ancient and evil beyond measure it's black writhing form makes a mockery of taunting laughter."
SHHH!LET THE PEOPLE FIGURE OUT HOW TO SORT ISSUE OUT, SO YOU FINALLY LAY DOWN AN DIE. WHERE AM BARBARIAN WHEN AM NEEDED? HIM ONLY STRAIGHT MELEE CLASS THAT GET SPECIAL KICK BUTT FIGHTAN MOVE WITH OUT NEEDING MAGIC SO FAR...
Wow, your impression based on......what exactly? I'd like to hear it from the horses mouth, thank you very much.
Well, my impression is based on what I've read form people like James Jacobs or Erik Mona on these forums in the last five or so year, and no, I don't have any posts that I can refer you to, but I am certain that you can find some of those posts with an appropriate search. I don't care enough about the issue to search for them myself, and that is why I've called it an impression and not a fact.
Personally, when Tome of Battle was originally releases, I though the concepts it was based around ran contrary to what I think is the spirit of third edition D&D, and in retrospect they seem more like testing the waters for new concepts that later materialized in fourth edition D&D. As I am not a fan of that edition, I am quite happy that Pathfinder isn't built to incorporate similar concepts.
Disclaimer: please note that the mention of fourth edition D&D in a context that might be interpreted as negative is not intended to start an edition war, I'm far too apathetic about fourth edition D&D for that.
So anyway,
what I'm hoping is maybe if anyone actually wants to go away and TRY something like this and report back...
Is for the development of Golarion Specific Fighting Stlyes, which give access to certain weebo special moves, selectable as feats.
What I am unsure of is how should they be specifically tied to the world.
One could tie a specific style to a certain region. Paizo obviously wouldn't have to call them styles. The could be Martial Arts or Combat forms etc.
Iron Heart- Swordmaster type weebo fightin moves could come out of Taldor.
Devoted Spirit- The whole channel divine power into your strikes or heal-y type moves could have certainly been developed by the Churches of Imodae and Gorum, who have been fighting a many years war at the worldwound. This martial style could have been created in direct response to the threat there.
Desert Wind- I'm Immediately thinking of Katapesh here and the church of Irori.
The only problem with that is how do you explain a fighter selecting multiple styles. You either only allow 1 or 2 styles max or you write fluff saying how the styles have, over the years spread thoughout the inner sea.
Or you could even tie certain schools of fighting to specific weapons.
Bladed weapons for example could have moves that inflict bleed or reduce speed, inflict STR damage by slicing muscles.
Blunt weapons could inflict con damage by crushing organs, neauseate foes or free knockdown effects.
ANOTHER option is to have a fighting school require 1 base feat before access to the school is allowed. Learning that feat opens up the whole school.
Power Attack- could be the Base Feat to gain access to Stone Dragon or 'the shcool of Massive Hits and DR
TWF could be the base feet for Tiger Claw or The 'school of a thousand cuts'
Skill Fcs:Religion could be the Base feat for Devoted Spirit or 'The school that lets me faith empower my fighting'
Need something for your C-MD?
Try new and improved Kirthfinder!
Read it. Liked it. But Kirthfinder means a total rewite for PF 2.0
What I'm suggesting could be 1 supplement that doesn't need to change all the current rules.
In all honesty, I've found the Tome of Battle classes to be on-par with other PF supplements and class-changes as to include them full-tilt into the campaigns.
I understand where your going with this and I've attempted to incorpoare something very similiar with a campaign I had planned to run, but with the re-tooling of the existing mechanis on top of what players are expected to know seemed a bit of a stretch. Basically, I just left it alone and incorporated it all. There were two problems that occured with the complete transfer; the first was Concentration checks and their importance in the mechanics/campaign. It's a skill which requires training. So basically, I made it into a new Skill, one that all 3 Martial Adepts could train. Additionally, it could be obtained through the Martial Study feat (in addition to the normal benefits). The second problem (albiet, minor) was changing the skills of the Martial Adept classes to fit Pathfinder ones. After that was done, it was pretty simple to adapt to the new ruleset.
From my initial game play with the system vs. PF, I've found little in the way of "brokeness" or any other shenanigans that might make this supplement superior to PF material. The Adept classes functioned around the norm for classes of comparable effectiveness.
The Crusader worked pretty well, espically when their stances can grant some self healing. But this is only when you successfully hit your target. Compare that to the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability and the Crusader quickly falls short as a Secondary healer. Besides that, the Crusader's heals are primary ones for himself, so it's not like he's pumping out heals to others as well. This is further put into the Paladin's favor when one considers Wands and the like, of which paladins can use and Crusaders cannot. Where Crusaders lack as secondary healer, they make up for in resilience. Their Delayed Damage Pool allows them to soak up some damage and turn that into a small bonus (1-9 pts = +1 atk/dmg; 10-15 pts = +2, and so on). What makes this feature great is that when he's soaking damage, it doesn't go through until the end of his turn, thus allowing him a small margin to negate some HP damage IF he's in a stance or uses a maneuver that allows him to. Over all, I'd say the uses of Stances and Maneuvers work in the Crusader's advantage yet the Paladin's encounter-long smite and Cha-bonus to Saving Throws makes it a slightly better class. Add in non-PF material (Complete Champion, Spell Compendium, Complete Warrior) and it sways further into the Paladin's court.
The Swordsage is a tricky class to nail down. He has the biggest pool of maneuvers/stances to pull from and has the most allowed to be known per day. Yet the recovery mechanic makes it unlikely that one would spend their whole next round recovering a power. They have 3/4 BAB and only 2 good saving throws, which puts them behind the Monk and bit above the Rogue. Their main advantage is their application of 6 different disciplines and their strike maneuvers, which hit about as much as a Rogue does with this SA. They do get Discipline Focus (meaning Weapon Focus for a select pool of weapons) and that helps give them a small bonus to attacks per round. Basically, a Swordsage is more of a Jack of All Trades in their role on the battlefield and how one decides to use their powers. Take some Shadow Hand maneuvers/stances and you a great scout and infiltrator. Take some Diamond Mind and Setting Sun and you sort of a Kung-Fu monk. Take Desert Wind and Tiger Claw and your a pouncing striker that likes fire. Each as their own uses but none are all that awe-inspiring that makes me say "too powerful".
The Warblade, often cited as the class that allows for broken Munchkinism and the feared Stormguard Warrior feat which does this - Channel The Storm, combined with Roiler's Gambit (PH2) and oppoents provoke an AoO each time they attack you. A very nice little detail to pay attention to is the 1 AoO per round limit applies to attacking and does not the limit of AoOs people can provoke from you nor the number you can choose to forgo. Depending on the monster this can range from four or more attacks, or a staggering +16 bonus to both attack and damage next turn and all it cost you was two feat slots. So with that combo and the forgoing of making AoO's its potentially a devestating combination, but if one doesn't like it, then limit it to one AoO for the round, this only gaining the player a +4 to attacks/damage, period.
Aside from that, however, it works fairly well compared to the Barbarian. The former (warblade) has incentive to keep up their Intelligence a bit higher and is, therefore, more MAD (multiple attribute dependand) than the brawny Barbarian. They get some nice maneuvers and stances and their recoery method is sweet until level 6, where it starts to fall to the wayside. Using the recovery method past 6th level means no full-attack in lieu of 1 standard action attack and 1 swift action for recovery. This is crucial if you consider many magical items require Swift Actions as well as Immediate Actions of some maneuvers.
On the whole, I've found very little in the ToB that makes me think it's not less than 90% compatable with current PF material. Not only in the scope of mechanical balance but in it's application to Golarion as a setting.
See my experience is pretty much on par with what you have said.
The best thing I like about TOB is it really brings a TACTICAL aspect to the table, rather than simply 'hit it again'.
The thing is I see this as providing a framework that could be adopted for 'Inner Sea Combat'. Or Having these Weboo fightan styles could be made into 'style feats' like the ones from UC. Crane style etc are a great bunch of feats.
Paizo could just make more style feats, but ones that don't rely on Improved Unarmed Strike as a preq.
So you could Have a Tiger claw chain:
Tiger Claw- Preq, TWF.
You are trained in the feral combat style.
When you enter this stance you more may make A primary AND offhand attack at the end of a charge, you also surge with fury when you inflict critical hits. Everytime you confirm a critical against a foe, you gain +1 to all attack and damage rolls for 1minute. A Two Weapon Warrior with the Doublestrike ability has that ability improve and can make a 3rd attack with his Main hand whenever he uses the Doublestrike ability.
Tiger Roar- Preq ITWF, Tiger Claw.
Your ferocious onslaught frightens foes. Whenever you hit an opponent with a primary and offhand attack in the same round, the foe must make a Will save vs your BAB+10+ Your STR Mod or become demoralized and flatfooted to you until the end of your next turn. Failure by 5 or more and the foe is Panicked for 1round instead. Also if you have the TWRend feat the damage from this feat increases to 2d6+2 times your STR modifier.
Whirlwind Fury- ITWF, Tiger Roar, BAB 12 or Fighter 10
You can take a full round action to attack every foe you threaten. You make a Primary and Offhand attack against every foe within reach and gain your TWRend damage against any foe you hit with both attacks. You may now also make a full attack at the end of a charge and ignore all non magical difficult terrain when charging. You may also parry one attack made against you per round. Whenever you are attacked by a foe in melee, make an opposed attack roll against thier first attack that hits you. If your result is higher that attack is parried with no damage taken by you.
This is the sorta stuff I'm thinking.