Hmm, I will build a casty that can take down AM. It will just take a while and a lot of thinking... but then, it doesn't sound like AM will be ready anytime soon either.
Are we strictly talking PC builds or any casty that AM might come across?
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"The cocoon of the Caster-Martial Disparity beast pulsates and moans as the faces of the tormented emerge from beneath the threads of unreality their tortured faces clearly visible before they shriek and are pulled back forcefully. As it pulsates a thousand madmen strip themselves naked before the cocoon and carve alien runes in their skins with flint knives as they chant in a language unknown to human tongues."
"RAI RAI CoDZilla RAW RAW Pun-Pun RAI RAI CoDZilla RAW RAW Pun-Pun DPR DPR DPR Optimization Munchkin erratta! MUNCHKIN ERRATA!"
"As the chanting grows louder and delves into your very soul the cocoon begins to crack and the madmen begin ritually tearing out their own hearts in supplication to the beasts dark growth. As the last one dies he beheads himself and his death whisper ushers forth the final word to usher in the rpg apocalypse."
"Bloat."
"It. Emerges."
AM NOT KNOW WHO BARBARIAN AM?
BARBARIAN BEAT DESTRUCITY AGAIN. BARBARIAN LEVEL TO 21. THEN BARBARIAN TAKE TWO WEAPON FIGHTING TREE IN EPIC LEVELS. AM DUAL WIELDING RAGELANCEPOUNCE!
Hmm, I will build a casty that can take down AM. It will just take a while and a lot of thinking... but then, it doesn't sound like AM will be ready anytime soon either.
Are we strictly talking PC builds or any casty that AM might come across?
We already know GM fiat can kill AM. I'd prefer at least a passing nod to fairness, and you may want to consider viability outside of this one fight as well, as a big selling point on AM is that he also can adventure with the same loadout.
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"The cocoon of the Caster-Martial Disparity beast pulsates and moans as the faces of the tormented emerge from beneath the threads of unreality their tortured faces clearly visible before they shriek and are pulled back forcefully. As it pulsates a thousand madmen strip themselves naked before the cocoon and carve alien runes in their skins with flint knives as they chant in a language unknown to human tongues."
"RAI RAI CoDZilla RAW RAW Pun-Pun RAI RAI CoDZilla RAW RAW Pun-Pun DPR DPR DPR Optimization Munchkin erratta! MUNCHKIN ERRATA!"
"As the chanting grows louder and delves into your very soul the cocoon begins to crack and the madmen begin ritually tearing out their own hearts in supplication to the beasts dark growth. As the last one dies he beheads himself and his death whisper ushers forth the final word to usher in the rpg apocalypse."
"Bloat."
"It. Emerges."
AM NOT KNOW WHO BARBARIAN AM?
BARBARIAN BEAT DESTRUCITY AGAIN. BARBARIAN LEVEL TO 21. THEN BARBARIAN TAKE TWO WEAPON FIGHTING TREE IN EPIC LEVELS. AM DUAL WIELDING RAGELANCEPOUNCE!
"Born from the rage of ten thousand argumentative posts, a creature of black hate and torment, of the power of improbability itself, emerges from the cocoon and rises to the heavens on black wings of some black material like plastic though painful to look at for its impossible geometry. Six dead editions slough from its skin as its dark magnificence rises above and beyond petty arguments that sully the purity of mathematics. It gibbers in the song of the heavens and alien dirge that threatens the end of all existence, of all life. To begin again the cycle of death and renewal that split the three editions into 4 and three and three quarters. It joins its elders, Paladin Alignment, Edition War, GMvsPlayer and Sensitive Real Life issue in the black void to forever haunt the realm of the living as another dark god."
I'm honestly sorry that I sounded antagonistic. I blame a combination of fever and seeing about fifty-eleven similar suggestions get shot down, but I shouldn't have behaved that way. It was rude and unnecessary. I apologize.WhySo please don't put words in my mouth.
Great apology. I accept and I hope you feel better. I am also stressed from other issues and I'm passing a lot of will saves to also avoid sounding antagonistic too so I understand.
To be clear, if we were ignoring Antagonize, my Diviner build would mostly be a pretty vanilla kill-you-in-the-face wizard, not a schroedinger's wizard. I truly believe he could beat Am, but it's clearly become far too difficult to show how that might be possible through this thread.
And also to be clear, I do NOT believe in wizards being TEH ULTIMATES REALITY BENDERS and I get the impression some people think I'm one of them. On the contrary, I think it's annoying when people say the game breaks down at X level because wizards bend the world to their will. They do not in actual play by the rules and with a DM that doesn't cater to them. As with all classes, they perform well in certain situations and not well in others.
However, the idea that any build doesn't have another build that could beat it is folly. There is always a way to beat you and simply because of how versatile they are, it tends to be a wizard build built solely to kill you in the face. Does this make wizards the most versatile? Why yes it does. Most effective in a game? Depends on the adventure, the player, and the DM.
Is there a reason why you guys are approaching a discussion this way?
Where is a "Welcome to the Internet" banner when you need one?
I'd prefer at least a passing nod to fairness, and you may want to consider viability outside of this one fight as well, as a big selling point on AM is that he also can adventure with the same loadout.
I live for this kind of thing too, so I will give it due course. I tend to lean towards versatility so I'm not looking at a caster to survive just RAGELANCEPOUNCE. I want to take AM out completely. Still, some guidelines would be nice as for as race/class and source books. I play PFS, but Leadership is not allowed so I'm currently looking at PFSRPG RAW.
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"Born from the rage of ten thousand argumentative posts, a creature of black hate and torment, of the power of improbability itself, emerges from the cocoon and rises to the heavens on black wings of some black material like plastic though painful to look at for its impossible geometry. Six dead editions slough from its skin as its dark magnificence rises above and beyond petty arguments that sully the purity of mathematics. It gibbers in the song of the heavens and alien dirge that threatens the end of all existence, of all life. To begin again the cycle of death and renewal that split the three editions into 4 and three and three quarters. It joins its elders, Paladin Alignment, Edition War, GMvsPlayer and Sensitive Real Life issue in the black void to forever haunt the realm of the living as another dark god."
...THAT AM IT.
BARBARIAN CALLING POSSE. AM GOD TO SMITE.
Oh yeah, to more things.
1. Anyone else notice that all the wizards facing off against AM BARBARIAN so far are AM DIVINERS? How many divination specialists are there, really?
2. Walk up to AM BARBARIAN with a portable hole and a bag of holding. Put the the hole in the bag and send AM to the Astral Plane. Heck, I'll go too. I would love to see him kill the githyanki lich queen!
BARBARIAN CALLING POSSE.
I am so in!
I'd prefer at least a passing nod to fairness, and you may want to consider viability outside of this one fight as well, as a big selling point on AM is that he also can adventure with the same loadout.I live for this kind of thing too, so I will give it due course. I tend to lean towards versatility so I'm not looking at a caster to survive just RAGELANCEPOUNCE. I want to take AM out completely. Still, some guidelines would be nice as for as race/class and source books. I play PFS, but Leadership is not allowed so I'm currently looking at PFSRPG RAW.
I haven't used the advanced race guide, but outside of that I plan on drawing from all of paizo's first party stuff. Haven't touched any of the 3pp. He's 20 pb with two traits.
"Born from the rage of ten thousand argumentative posts, a creature of black hate and torment, of the power of improbability itself, emerges from the cocoon and rises to the heavens on black wings of some black material like plastic though painful to look at for its impossible geometry. Six dead editions slough from its skin as its dark magnificence rises above and beyond petty arguments that sully the purity of mathematics. It gibbers in the song of the heavens and alien dirge that threatens the end of all existence, of all life. To begin again the cycle of death and renewal that split the three editions into 4 and three and three quarters. It joins its elders, Paladin Alignment, Edition War, GMvsPlayer and Sensitive Real Life issue in the black void to forever haunt the realm of the living as another dark god."...THAT AM IT.
BARBARIAN CALLING POSSE. AM GOD TO SMITE.
Cheapy had better create a forum profile for AMY then!
And where (or who?) is AM PALADIN to help?
Sounds good. I'll try to come up with a NPC/monster casty opponent that a GM could use to challenge a character like yours, and then I'll try to make a 20 pb PC casty that could defeat AM.
Sounds good. I'll try to come up with a NPC/monster casty opponent that a GM could use to challenge a character like yours, and then I'll try to make a 20 pb PC casty that could defeat AM.
I look forward to it. I'm really hoping for something even out of this. My original goal was, after all, merely beating the C-MD, not proving that AM BARBARIAN is a manly undefeatable god.
I mean, he is and I did, but that doesn't mean I meant to.
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He is an exercise in RAW, and RAW has no penalties for not sleeping.
Fine, I will see if i can put this to rest.
Wizard 1, Universalist
10's across the board
Spellbook, robes and a pointy hat, proving he is a Casty
After RAGELANCEPOUNCE continue life as normal. As there are no RAW penalties for being dead.
As there are no RAW penalties for being dead.
Having negative hit points mean you have the condition dying, which includes being helpless. Nowhere does it say dead removes the dying condition, AFAIK. Thus, if you're dead from hit points damage, there IS a RAW penalty.
Sounds good. I'll try to come up with a NPC/monster casty opponent that a GM could use to challenge a character like yours, and then I'll try to make a 20 pb PC casty that could defeat AM.I look forward to it. I'm really hoping for something even out of this. My original goal was, after all, merely beating the C-MD, not proving that AM BARBARIAN is a manly undefeatable god.
I mean, he is and I did, but that doesn't mean I meant to.
"Mere constructs of mathematics cannot defeat that which is born in the dark heart of the player's soul. I ahve existed since the dawn of the red box. I will exist at the end of this pathfinding age. I. Am. Forever.
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He is an exercise in RAW, and RAW has no penalties for not sleeping.Fine, I will see if i can put this to rest.
Wizard 1, Universalist
10's across the board
Spellbook, robes and a pointy hat, proving he is a Casty
After RAGELANCEPOUNCE continue life as normal. As there are no RAW penalties for being dead.
Well there are penalties for being at negative hit points, which is what RAGELANCPOUNCE does to you.
Unconsciousness and being restricted from taking actions kinda puts a crimp into your day.
He is an exercise in RAW, and RAW has no penalties for not sleeping.Fine, I will see if i can put this to rest.
Wizard 1, Universalist
10's across the board
Spellbook, robes and a pointy hat, proving he is a Casty
After RAGELANCEPOUNCE continue life as normal. As there are no RAW penalties for being dead.
ACTUALLY, DEAD AM AT -HP, AND WHEN HP GO THAT LOW CASTY AM UNCONCIOUS AND DYING. THIS AM BASICALLY MEANING WIZARD NEVER WAKE UP AGAIN, CONTINUE TO TAKE 1 DAMAGE EVERY ROUND ALWAYS.
"Mere constructs of mathematics cannot defeat that which is born in the dark heart of the player's soul. I ahve existed since the dawn of the red box. I will exist at the end of this pathfinding age. I. Am. Forever.
And still, in all that time, you haven't learned to spell "have" correctly. Geez. I know linguistics isn't a class skill for outsiders, but anyone with Int 10+ SHOULD know common, that language that is so strikingly similar to English.
Dead condition made me think of something.
1) Live good life, learn a spell or two to become casty
2) Frolic through meadow
3) AM finds casty in meadow and murders him
4) Casty gets judged as a good soul by Pharasma and an angel takes him to heaven, maybe even to be another angel
win
Casty now has immortal awesomesauce in heaven so long as Rovagug, the old ones, etc. don't break existence in which case AM is gone too so we'll call it a draw.
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CONTINUE TO TAKE 1 DAMAGE EVERY ROUND ALWAYS.
Notice AM BARBARIAN has just given in-game rules for why things rot.
So.
What happens when casty is underwater?
Like an Aboleth. An aboleth was the mastermind behind the casty that killed your parents.
So.
What happens when casty is underwater?
Like an Aboleth. An aboleth was the mastermind behind the casty that killed your parents.
Sunder the sea? I hear Moses did it quite well, and seeing how kick-ass he was, he must've been a barbarian.
Sunder the sea? I hear Moses did it quite well, and seeing how kick-ass he was, he must've been a barbarian.So.
What happens when casty is underwater?
Like an Aboleth. An aboleth was the mastermind behind the casty that killed your parents.
I think AM's engineering degree means he'd know that wouldn't work.
Note that I didn't say he wouldn't do it.
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So.
What happens when casty is underwater?
Like an Aboleth. An aboleth was the mastermind behind the casty that killed your parents.
BARBARIAN AM ENGINEER. AM REALLY EXPECTING DRAINING ENTIRE LAKE TO BE BIG PROBLEM?
And still, in all that time, you haven't learned to spell "have" correctly. Geez. I know linguistics isn't a class skill for outsiders, but anyone with Int 10+ SHOULD know common, that language that is so strikingly similar to English.
"Mere constructs of mathematics cannot defeat that which is born in the dark heart of the player's soul. I ahve existed since the dawn of the red box. I will exist at the end of this pathfinding age. I. Am. Forever.
"It is difficult to type with a thousand thousand tendrils that exist both in and out of causality. Geez, by the way, is not a word in common. Your attempts at grammar correction, mortal, serve only to feed me. Prepare yourself. You will now incubate my young."
*brandishes ovipostor*
BARBARIAN AM ENGINEER. AM REALLY EXPECTING DRAINING ENTIRE LAKE TO BE BIG PROBLEM?So.
What happens when casty is underwater?
Like an Aboleth. An aboleth was the mastermind behind the casty that killed your parents.
If you can't do it in a round, yes.
Raging Swimmer.
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BARBARIAN AM ENGINEER. AM REALLY EXPECTING DRAINING ENTIRE LAKE TO BE BIG PROBLEM?So.
What happens when casty is underwater?
Like an Aboleth. An aboleth was the mastermind behind the casty that killed your parents.
If you can't do it in a round, yes.
Raging Swimmer.
TOUCHE.
CLEARLY, AM PLAN TIME. MOVE ACTION, HOP OFF MOUNT. MOUNT DISPEL. CAST THAT ONE SPELL THAT REBUILDS EIDOLON. MAKE ALL FLY INTO SWIM. QUICKEN ROD SUMMON EIDOLON. FAST MOUNT. 1 ROUND.
God damn.
Just... god damn.
CLEARLY, AM PLAN TIME. MOVE ACTION, HOP OFF MOUNT. MOUNT DISPEL. CAST THAT ONE SPELL THAT REBUILDS EIDOLON. MAKE ALL FLY INTO SWIM. QUICKEN ROD SUMMON EIDOLON. FAST MOUNT. 1 ROUND.
Doesn't this mean you are doing actions, then your cohort, then you again? You don't share initiative/action pools. It'll take more than one round. Unless mount rules are a loophole to allow that in which case I'm always going to make some other PC my "mount" so we can mix our actions together ;)
CLEARLY, AM PLAN TIME. MOVE ACTION, HOP OFF MOUNT. MOUNT DISPEL. CAST THAT ONE SPELL THAT REBUILDS EIDOLON. MAKE ALL FLY INTO SWIM. QUICKEN ROD SUMMON EIDOLON. FAST MOUNT. 1 ROUND.Doesn't this mean you are doing actions, then your cohort, then you again? You don't share initiative/action pools. It'll take more than one round. Unless mount rules are a loophole to allow that in which case I'm always going to make some other PC my "mount" so we can mix our actions together ;)
AM NOT. MOVE AM TO HOP OFF. STANDARD AM TECHNICALLY READYING ACTION TO FAST MOUNT ONCE BATTY BAT AM RESUMMONED.
That one works, though you could just ready a move action mount since that's what it would be if you somehow failed the ride check. Unless you are doing fast mount just to be fancy.
Alternatively, you could let cohort go first to dispel, use ride check for safe "soft fall" after batty disappears, cohort changes eidolon and resummons it, now you go, fast mount and can ready an action to attack anything that comes within range.
However this means AM BARBARIAN now relies on a caster in order to be combat effective.
As there are no RAW penalties for being dead.Having negative hit points mean you have the condition dying, which includes being helpless. Nowhere does it say dead removes the dying condition, AFAIK. Thus, if you're dead from hit points damage, there IS a RAW penalty.
Well said. And you are right.
It occurs to me that a build to fight AM would be similar to the one to avoid the Red Mantis group from another thread.
However this means AM BARBARIAN now relies on a caster in order to be combat effective.
There are people who said the same thing when BATTY BAT was an awakened dire bat with a ring of spell turning, or on any build involving Oracle 1. I'm willing to let others draw that conclusion, but I will point out that it definitely ain't spells that make AM BARBARIAN AM BARBARIAN.
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I'm curious, is there a way to build mr. casty as to beat AM barbarian in a grapple, and if so, can the attack from antagonize be used to start a grapple?I don't see it happening, Strength Surge gives him a +20 cmd once a round if he gets threatened with a manuver.
Strength Surge is only once per rage. And if the caster is throwing waves of exhaustion, you're only going to get the one rage.
Strength Surge is only once per rage. And if the caster is throwing waves of exhaustion, you're only going to get the one rage.I'm curious, is there a way to build mr. casty as to beat AM barbarian in a grapple, and if so, can the attack from antagonize be used to start a grapple?I don't see it happening, Strength Surge gives him a +20 cmd once a round if he gets threatened with a manuver.
Heart of the Fields.
Better cast it more than once.
Now wonder the Caster-Martial Disparity beast reached its apotheosis we keep going in circles. It feeds on the cycle.
Strength Surge is only once per rage. And if the caster is throwing waves of exhaustion, you're only going to get the one rage.I'm curious, is there a way to build mr. casty as to beat AM barbarian in a grapple, and if so, can the attack from antagonize be used to start a grapple?I don't see it happening, Strength Surge gives him a +20 cmd once a round if he gets threatened with a manuver.
True, in which case the target number while exhausted is ~48 with one surge. (Assuming no potions of lesser restoration, of course, but that is getting into AM BATMAN levels of forethought.)
Tark, AM BARBARIAN and posse versus Caster Martial Disparity God needs to be a thing.
However this means AM BARBARIAN now relies on a caster in order to be combat effective.There are people who said the same thing when BATTY BAT was an awakened dire bat with a ring of spell turning, or on any build involving Oracle 1. I'm willing to let others draw that conclusion, but I will point out that it definitely ain't spells that make AM BARBARIAN AM BARBARIAN.
Its a triviality really. Assuming that AM already chose to adventure with a casty all this time, evolution surge is actually a very elegant solution. I have no problem with assuming that if AM chose to adventure underwater, he could find a suitable aquatic mount. SHARKY SHARK perhaps.
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It's a rage power from ultimate combat. It is also the best rage power ever.
Prismatic sphere? Sunder.
Maze? Sunder.
Invisibility? Sunder.
Mirror image? Sunder.
Summoned creature? Dominated ally? Wall of force?
Sunder. Sunder! SUNDER! SUNDERBARB! HOOOOOOOOOO!
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It's a rage power from ultimate combat. It is also the best rage power ever.
Prismatic sphere? Sunder.
Maze? Sunder.
Invisibility? Sunder.
Mirror image? Sunder.Summoned creature? Dominated ally? Wall of force?
Sunder. Sunder! SUNDER! SUNDERBARB! HOOOOOOOOOO!
Yeah, this is one of the MANY reasons I feel Ultimate combat was the worst book that Paizo has ever put out. Every craptastic, overpowered build I've seen (or built myslef) hinges around something poorly written from that book.
Tark, AM BARBARIAN and posse versus Caster Martial Disparity God needs to be a thing.
The only thing that can defeat the Caster-Martial Disparity god is complete and total balance of the cosmos.
Tark, AM BARBARIAN and posse versus Caster Martial Disparity God needs to be a thing.The only thing that can defeat the Caster-Martial Disparity god is complete and total balance of the cosmos.
I beg to differ. There is no problem that can't be solved by sundering the right thing hard enough.
I actually really like spell sunder. There's finally something that is worthwhile to make people not full attack for damage all the time.
I don't think people fully appreciate how monumental that is.
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I note that antagonize was the final nail in the coffin today, and that was from Ultimate Magic.
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AM CURRENTLY LEVEL 7 DIVINER. AM REALIZE AFTER MANY DEAD LVL20 CASTYS THAT SOON AM NEEDING PLAN TO DEAL WITH BARBARIAN. AM HOPE FOR NOW THAT TALKY LIKE BARBARIAN AND THROW AWAY POINTY HAT AM BUY TIME. AM ALSO LIVE IN HOLE IN GROUND TO HIDE CASTY AURAS. ON SIDE NOTE: AM UNSURE CONCERNING RULES LEGITIMACY OF FEW BARBARIAN STRATEGIES, SUCH AS PERMANENT ARCANE SIGHT WITHOUT UMD AND BATTY BLINDSENSE RANGE.
HOWEVER, AM ALSO HAVE CONFIDENCE IN BARBARIAN PLAYER RULES-FU FOR THESE AND OTHER ISSUES. AM THINKING THINGS EXPLAINED IN OTHER THREAD. AM UNABLE TO CHECK, TO DO NEED TO LEAVE HOLE IN GROUND THEREBY EXPOSING SELF TO RAGELANCEPOUNCE. AM WILLING TO LET ISSUE REST, THOUGH AM STILL CURIOUS. AM BEING GRATEFUL FOR EXPLAINATION SO LONG AS EXPLAINY-PERSON AM NOT SHOWING BARBARIAN WHERE FIND HIDEY-HOLE.
TIME SPENT HIDE IN CAVE GOOD FOR THINK, THOUGH. AFTER MANY ARGUMENT AM SEEMING LIKE RAW AM BARBARIAN BEST FRIEND. FURTHER, AM REALIZING RAW AM PURVIEW OF FIGHTY ONE-ON-ONE. AM THEREFORE LIKELY THAT TRY BEAT BARBARIAN AT OWN GAME AM WASTED EFFORT, ESPECIALLY FOR ME SMART CASTY. AM SUGGESTING BEST WAY TO SURVIVE VS BARBARIAN TO CHANGE PLAYSTYLE. AM PLAN TO USE TALKY AND WIDELY UNPOPULAR ENCHANTMENT SCHOOL TO USE FRIEND AND MINION VS BARBARIAN FROM LONG DISTANCE. AM EXPECTING BARBARIAN DO MIND-READY SOMEHOW OR AT LEAST SCARE TRUTH FROM MINION WITH ADD LOTS INTIMIDATE, SO AM THINKING MANY DEGREES SEPARATION BETWEEN SELF AND AGENTS BEST IDEA. MINION TALKY INEVITABLE, SO ALSO AM PLAN USE DISGUISE, MOVE LOTS, AND MAYBE CUT OUT MINION TONGUE ON REGULAR BASIS (AM LAWFUL NEUTRAL, SOMETIME EVIL TENDENCIES). AM THINKING STRATEGERY CAN FAIL MANY TIME BUT NEED WORK JUST ONE.
AM REALIZE PLAN HAVE MANY PROBLEM, LIST OF WHICH TOO LONG FOR EXISTING POST (TOO LONG EVEN WITHOUT, ME THINK). AM ALSO REALIZE AM MOVING GOALPOST. IS OK, AM TAKING PAGE FROM BARBARIAN PLAYBOOK AND USE CATCH OFFGUARD SO PROFICIENT WITH MOVING GOALPOST. AM NEEDING FEWER CASTY FEAT WITH INDIRECT STRATEGERY SO AM HAVING OPEN SLOT FOR POINTLESS FEAT.
AM GOOD PLAN?