Slumber Hex

[David_Bross]

It can also help to remember that it is as the sleep spell. A mook can spend a standard action to wake the boss up...

[Optimistic Cynic]

I am currently running a level 11 Witch in RotRL, and have been running him since level 1. The Slumber Hex is very powerful, but not any more so than a few things my companions pulled out of their hats.

The thing to remember is that the Witch is great against a single opponent, but not so much against several baddies at the same time. If the Witch uses Slumber on one, either his squishy self is about to get jumped by that target's friends, or one of those said friends simply kicks the sleeping one awake. Or both at the same time.

But have the Witch face off against the boss creature, and things look up.

Well, until those boss creatures are immune to mind-effecting, at which time most of the Hexes, including Slumber, stop being effective altogether.

By the time you can cast the Hex on two targets via Split Hex, SLumber is usually the third or fourth Hex down the list you are using.

In my experience of course. :)

So in the end I guess I do not see a real reason to nerf the Hex. Let the player have fun with the boss creatures. That is his job, and what he is built for. That just puts the Witch within 30 feet of the most dangerous enemy. And Slumber goes by the wayside after level 10 or 11.

[Mal-Duroth]

Ceylon Tom wrote:

Last session my players slaughtered a large quantity of demons using only one procedure. Each time the wich would use the slumber hex (a supernatural ability, so no SR applies. Moreover, he really buffed the DC his hexes) and the fighter would perform a coup de grace (wich either kills the creature instantly or results in an impossible-to-beat fortitude save). Am I missing something here? Is this a legit procedure? Im affraid they will ruin the demon-heavy adventure I prepared.

If these abilities are being used properly then I don't see the problem. Slumber Hex has a range of 30 ft, which forces a squishy witch to get uncomfortably close to one of the most mobile varieties of enemy in the game.

Coup de grace is a full round action, although I DO believe there is a feat that makes it a standard action. Whithout that feat though, the fighter cannot make a coup de grace in the same round if he has to move.

Demons typically have more spell-like abilities than they need (many of which are at will), and most of them have sorcerer/wizard range. Demons are also very craven and will do thier best to debilitate the party using spell-like abilities at maximum range and force the party to close the distance. They also should make liberal use of ambushes (most of them have plenty ranks in stealth and some can turn invisible)and false retreats (almost every demon can greater teleport at will). Demons are typically very inteligent. Once a witch puts a slumber hex on one of them, she should become a priority target (once again, demons are very mobile). They're accustomed to their SR granting them good protection against spells so they should react very quickly to anyone who is actually able to use magic against them effectively.

[Slamy Mcbiteo]

Yea I really think this ability is over powered. Personally I do not like the way it plays out, it has the ability to one shot a encounter and sort takes the fun out of it.

Several times during our run through of an "AP" this ability has taken an encounter and turned it into a "killing"...not very heroic and not a lot of fun. It seems to break the game suspense to me, currently the party waits to see in the slumber hex works and then Coup de grace the enemy.....for me it is sort of boring. It can quickly wreck a well planned encounter make it a trivial killing.

Paizo worked hard early to provide balance but slowly over time it seems to me that the game is moving away from balance and more to power builds. It seems classes like the Magus and the Witch had great potential that seem to be ruined by poorly designed or through out abilities.

I will not house rule it, it seems the rules should be used as written. But I am thinking I will just lose interest and move on to a different game....

[Matthew Morris]

So, are all the encounters a) with one creature b) involve the witch feeling safe being within 30' of the target c) with creatures with crappy will saves and d) with creatures that are vulnerable to it?

If they are... you're doing it wrong.

[Slamy Mcbiteo]

Matthew Morris wrote:

So, are all the encounters a) with one creature b) involve the witch feeling safe being within 30' of the target c) with creatures with crappy will saves and d) with creatures that are vulnerable to it?

If they are... you're doing it wrong.

Nope not all of them but I am running the AP as written so there are a lot of single encounters. As for being with in 30 feet of the baddie that is not an issue there are several party members in front of him, the witch has a buffed up DC I believe it is 20 currently so even the high will save class at level 4 still have a 50% chance to miss and currently as written no one is immune (no elves, no dragons, half dragons,...)

So yes I could change the encounter to deal with the witches ability but that seems wrong. So yes I could add extra creatures to wake up the sleeping ones....so I could raise the CR of the encounter that seems wrong. I guess I could rework each encounter so the CR remains the same but there are multiple creatures....why did I buy the "AP" then? I could start giving out "Protection from Law" every where to negate it..that seems wrong.

It seems to me that this one ability causes the way we look at encounters much differently, we are forced to react to it and change them to actually make them viable. Attacking a level one party with an Ogre seems stupid and trivial now. Actually the party started carrying Coup de grace weapons, high crit weapons to make sure the fort saves failed. So now the party is effected by this one ability also...

I have let it play out but in reality I can see it ruining the game slowly as both the GM and the players loss interest....the issue is really the ability to screw and encounter with single one dice role.

[Kyoni]

Slamy Mcbiteo wrote:

Nope not all of them but I am running the AP as written so there are a lot of single encounters. As for being with in 30 feet of the baddie that is not an issue there are several party members in front of him, the witch has a buffed up DC I believe it is 20 currently so even the high will save class at level 4 still have a 50% chance to miss and currently as written no one is immune (no elves, no dragons, half dragons,...)

So yes I could change the encounter to deal with the witches ability but that seems wrong. So yes I could add extra creatures to wake up the sleeping ones....so I could raise the CR of the encounter that seems wrong. I guess I could rework each encounter so the CR remains the same but there are multiple creatures....why did I buy the "AP" then? I could start giving out "Protection from Law" every where to negate it..that seems wrong.

It seems to me that this one ability causes the way we look at encounters much differently, we are forced to react to it and change them to actually make them viable. Attacking a level one party with an Ogre seems stupid and trivial now. Actually the party started carrying Coup de grace weapons, high crit weapons to make sure the fort saves failed. So now the party is effected by this one ability also...

I have let it play out but in reality I can see it ruining the game slowly as both the GM and the players loss interest....the issue is really the ability to screw and encounter with single one dice role.

Then why not be honest and talk with that witch?

Tell him/her that you don't have the time/knowledge/... to change all the encounter of that AP to make the encounters challenging for them and you'd like him/her to trade that slumber hex for something that does not ruin single-monster encounters all the time.

If that player is remotely concerned about his and the group's fun, he/she'll agree to drop slumber for something else.

By the way: how the blazes did the witch get to DC20 at level 4? how high is the witches int? point buy? already decked out with headband of intellect +4?

[The Sweater Golem]

Elementals are also immune to sleep effects. Use Fire Elementals, you can't Ice Tomb them.

Also, Ability Focus is a Monster Feat, so you can deny access to players if you want. I have learned to do so. Witches save DCs are high enough as it is since they can focus so many resources on intelligence.

[Devilkiller]

You can deny a player access to absolutely any feat. There's nothing special about Monster Feats which makes them off limits for PCs except in PFS though. Animal Companions explicitly have several Monster Feats on their list of permitted feats, and there are Ranger archetypes which can gain some of them as bonus feats.

Anyhow, if you think Slumber is too close to "Save or Die" in your game I still advise considering a house rule to remove the Fort save from coup de grace. There are other house rules you could use to control Slumber, but this one addresses a number of other issues, and I feel it leads to a better game overall.

At lower levels the auto-crit is pretty close to an auto-kill, especially with a x3 or x4 weapon. At higher levels the foe still loses a turn, takes a ton of damage, and ends up prone. If just getting a free crit seems too weak you could consider increasing the crit mod by 1x.

[Thread Necromancer]

Threads cannot be affected by the necropost hex more than once per 365 day period.

[Aspasia de Malagant]

Astral Wanderer wrote:

No need to modify rules, just not sending a Demon alone and/or keeping it outside the 30 ft. range of Slumber is enough to balance things.

But even before that, don't just put the Demons before the PCs as in an action videogame. Use them for what they are: cunning and deceiving entities devoid of honor and mercy. Use trickery. Use ambushes. Use illusions. That way, should a fight end in Slumber + coup de grace anyway, it will have been a challenge, not just a free XP-dealer device.

^This!