Disclaimer: I know that the normal response is that every group is different, and every player of that group is different.
Our group recently hit 7th level and completed the second chapter of the Kingmaker AP. Because the AP is written for four players and I'm running five, everyone was behind WBL. I included a little bit of a windfall to put the players just ahead of WBL in anticipation of the same thing happened by the end of this next chapter.
One of my players is wanting to use his wealth to purchase an intelligent item. He came up with a passable, but not great, roleplay explanation for his obtaining it. He wanted to customize a Hand of the Mage and give it the ability to cast a 2nd or 3rd level spell three times a day.
At first, I thought the idea was cool, but as I started reading about the rules and here on the forums, I come to the decision that I believe that it's too powerful for a level 7 character to have, especially given the fact that he was considering any and all spells.
Of course, the rules in the CRB support introducing items into the game, but I'd argue that the pricing guidelines are for GMs to be able to design and provide a value for an intelligent item. From an action economy standpoint, and if my grasp of the rules is correct, the intelligent item would act on its own and use its effects on his turn.
He argues that the rules are there, he has the coin to pay for it, and it should be allowed. He said that characters at 7th level should start acquiring powerful items like that. One of the characters obtained the following:
Am I wrong? Am I right?
The one compromise that I've thought of is to have him create a customized, though non-intelligent, Hand of the Mage. I will allow it to increase in strength as he does, awakening as an intelligent item once I feel that it fits the character.
Thanks for the input. This forum is awesome, so I'm hoping for some good feedback.
Price it out as if it was 3 pearl of powers of the proper level.
That would be the same function, allowing him to cast 3 more spells per day and such
Because the item CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean it WILL. Depending on the items Alignment and goals, etc. Also I think the 2nd and 3rd Spell/3day is only one spell, not all spells.
Good for DM? 1st
Good for player? 14th
Because the item CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean it WILL. Depending on the items Alignment and goals, etc. Also I think the 2nd and 3rd Spell/3day is only one spell, not all spells.
I meant he wants to be able to choose from any of the spells available out there, from cleric to wizard to any other class.
The Pearl of Power could be an interesting option. My concern of unbalancing encounters is still more of an issue to me than the value of the item.
Because the item CAN do something doesn't necessarily mean it WILL. Depending on the items Alignment and goals, etc. Also I think the 2nd and 3rd Spell/3day is only one spell, not all spells.I meant he wants to be able to choose from any of the spells available.
Ah, misread. In any case the item isn't extremely powerful, and it's under your control for the most part. It's a great chance to introduce a quirky odd character, who maybe doesn't like to be bossed around or some such. Make it interesting and fun as opposed to just a magic item you don't have to spend an action activating.
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First, Intelligent Items are not ´standard fare´ that anybody should expect to order from the mail-order Magic Mart. The player trying to bully you into getting it just because there are pricing guidelines for it is out of line. This attitude, more than having or not having the Intillegent item in play is what says PROBLEM to me.
Per se, I don´t see why Intelligent Items can´t be in the PCs hands at low levels, lower than you are... The issue here is mostly the usage of relatively high levels spells (for where they are) as extra actions.
I think you can use Intelligent Items, but they should be integrated into the plot line.... They are basically an NPC after all... They should be treated as one. Is any and every NPC they meet perfectly suited to being their loyal servant? Same for Intelligent Items. The CHA check is there for a reason, the item having it´s own agenda and differing alignment is a STANDARD PART of the Intelligent Item rules after all :-) But that can be upfront, i.e. there are clues to the alignment the item would have, and the player can be given ´choices´ between ones that are different from his... i.e. the CE one or the LG one (let´s say player is NG fore example), just to stick to alignments and not get into specific persoality traits/goals...
Does anybody in the game want to spy on the PCs? Hearing that they want an Intelligent Item is PERFECT INTRO for putting an item that would spy on the PCs into their hands. I don´t think you should be a jerk about it, but the item should make the game more interesting for everybody, not just be ´free actions lalalala´.
If you want to allow it, I think it´s reasonable to allow/disallow spell abilities as you see fit, i.e. to only 1st level spells or something. Make getting it an adventure... Maybe he gives his money to somebody to acquire the custom item, they try to steal it, or somebody gets wind and tries to steal it. Maybe the money will be ´in the air´ for some time (a level?) while the item is being made, while other PCs with ´standard´ gear get immediate use of the stuff, since they are more ´rich dude´s commodities´.
... if my grasp of the rules is correct, the intelligent item would act on its own and use its effects on his turn...
I would say that if it is independant enough to act on it's own, then it casts the spells when it wants to do so. If he is convincing it to cast the spell at a specific time, it would cost at least a move equivalent action.
I would also restrict him to arcane OR divine spells depending upon who is crafting the item for him. (Unless he knows a mystic theurge who will do it and charges more for it.) I would not allow any spells with costly material components without a substantial cost increase. I would say the intel (or wis if divine) has to be high enough to cast the spell.
Also double check the times per day vs cost. If you look at that table again a 3rd level spell 3 times per day is +18,000 gps.
So I would say bare minimum of 19,600 if intel of 13, other abil 10 or lower, only empathy, only 30' sense, only a single 3rd level spell 3 ea day. Not game breaking in my opinion.
It is a great idea, but well beyond the well-by-limit (WBL) suggested for 7th-level character. Such a character has a WBL of 23,500 gp, and it is suggested that he can’t spend more than 25% of his wealth on a single item: that is 5,875 gp.
An intelligent hand of the mage costs a base 900 gp, plus 500 gp for being intelligent. That is 1,400 gp right there. Let’s make it like Thing from the Adams family. It can move with a speed of 10 ft: that adds 5,000 gp, for a total of 6,400 gp. Ouch. But let’s push on. Thing was fairly intelligent and wise, but lacked charisma. Ability scores of Int 12, Wis 12, and Cha 10. That adds another 1,000 gp (running total is 7,400 gp). It can’t speak or use telepathy, and we will give it basic 30-foot senses; none of that adds anything to the cost.
2nd- and 3rd-level spells simply cost too much, even if we cut them down to 1/day. Instead, let’s give a 1st-level spell 3/day. That is ONE spell that it can cast three times per day. Cost is 1,200 gp, for a total of 8,600 gp.
Going by WBL, he can’t afford this item until he is 9th level, 8th if you are generous and let him go slightly above 25% on a single item. Thing (for want of a better name) would have an Ego score of 4, so personality conflicts wouldn’t be a problem, even for someone who dumped Wisdom.
If it can’t move around by itself, that would put the cost at 3,600 gp, which is quite doable for a 7th level character. But where is the fun in that?
Master Arminas
For me? 1st level is a good level. I LOVE intelligent items, a sword possessing the soul of a great ancestor who guides you as you go on your quest, a ring containing vast stores of knowledge that doesn't quite care for you and as such doesn't always tell the truth, an artifact level weapon that the players have no chance of wielding unless they agree to certain unreasonable demands, ahh the possibilities are endless. This item and the situation seems more like a player wanting a powerful item who can cast free spells for him when he needs it though. I'd have him tone the item down a bit(it can always become more powerful later), but as far as it being intelligent there shouldn't be many, if any at all, issues.
The story of the item, if I'm remembering correctly, once belonged to an old Elven Ranger/Wizard. The player is a human ranger who has an elf somewhere in his ancestory, but not enough to make him a half elf, and he acquired the hand. As far as I'm aware, it wasn't going to be a new item.
I like the story behind the item, which is why I'm tempted to let him custom made a normal magic item and have the item reveal its intelligence and abilities over the course of his level progression. He gets the intelligent item that he wants that I will make more powerful than if he bought it himself with the understanding that it won't come all at once. That way, the reveal can be in a more dramatic fashion and will have more weight to it.
I suppose part of my concern is that I believe intelligent items should be just like a good NPC, something mentioned by other posters. But, unlike an NPC, I think it should be a defining aspect of the character, not just another tool in the shed.
I am curious about who's an active, regular GM out of the people that responded.
This game and the battles that we fight often hinge on action economy.
An intelligent item can be a game changer. Now instead of a character having to spend a round buffing the sword that he carries will do that for him. You may run into all sorts of problems if you allow the player to dictate the terms of the weapon or item.
You may want to create the item randomly. I considered giving one of my players an intelligent item but instead told him that he would be given the opportunity to craft one. The components to do so included dragon breath, demons/celestial blood, a willing soul, and a siphon stone (magic jar). Now at level 12 he is ready to craft the item and place the soul of our fallen paladin in the weapon so that the paladin can finish his final quest.
in other words level 7 seems low.
Edit: I spent way to long posting this it's now mostly irrelevant.
I am a regular DM (I hate GM; for lord's sake this is D&D, just under another name!). I prefer playing, but for the past dozen years, I have run because our old DM moved away. And I would have no problems with introducing an item NPC into the party--and have done so in the past for great times.
Master Arminas
great points
You know, I didn't even consider the wealth by level and only being 25% of the wealth. I understand its a guide, but it's one that I'm going to enforce.
I think with that in mind, coupled with what I'd like to do as described above, I can come up with a compromise with the player.
It sounds like there's a mix of me being too conservative as a DM/GM and making the fair call. I always say that it's not my job to be right, it's my job to be fair. I've never DM/GM'd a campaign beyond 4th level, and I don't think our long standing group has ever gone much past 4th level for whatever reason, so it's all new territory for all of us.
Edit - We've played so many games that DM and GM are interchangeable. I often say GM when referring to D&D and DM when referring to something like Star Wars.
Personally, I'd never let a PC make an intelligent item if they don't first figure out where the sentience is coming from. I certainly wouldn't let a single feat like Craft Wonderous Items also allow them to create sentient creatures from thin air.
Agreed. In my campaign, you cannot craft an intelligent item. Period. Those items come from legendary archmages and divine casters from the long-distant past, or perhaps are the work of the Gods. Many of which used means we would consider evil in order to bind a sentient soul to the item in question.
They exist, and players can find them, and if they really really want Thing (see above), I might make it for them and let them find it for sale. But they can't sit down and craft thing for themselves. Not at 7th-level, not at 14th-level, and probably not at 21-level (although being epic does made for a difference).
Master Arminas
At this point in time, the player has opted to simply buy a Belt of Incredible Dexterity instead. I suppose my initial reservations made him reconsider.
At least I've learned a little bit about DMing...I'm a little too conservative, but not so much that a major change needs to be made. On top of that, I need to be a little more objective when a player makes a suggestion and check it into it before coming across as supportive and then backtracking once I get a better grasp on the idea.
I blame the liquor I was drinking when we discussed it.
It is a great idea, but well beyond the well-by-limit (WBL) suggested for 7th-level character. Such a character has a WBL of 23,500 gp, and it is suggested that he can’t spend more than 25% of his wealth on a single item: that is 5,875 gp...
A point I would make here. If someone is creating a 7th level character I have no problem saying he can't spend more than 25% on one item.
HOWEVER, if a player has played the character since first level and has saved up 20k to spend on 1 item, I would let him. If he has gimped himself for 7 levels saving money that he could of put to use, that is forward thinking and planning for what he wants. I would not arbitrarily state that he can't spend it on what he wants.
{Now whether he can find someone willing and able to make what he wants, could be a very different question.}
Disclaimer: I know that the normal response is that every group is different, and every player of that group is different.
Our group recently hit 7th level and completed the second chapter of the Kingmaker AP. Because the AP is written for four players and I'm running five, everyone was behind WBL. I included a little bit of a windfall to put the players just ahead of WBL in anticipation of the same thing happened by the end of this next chapter.
It should depend on the power of the intelligent item, just like any other magic item.
PS:I did not read what the item in your game does.