Just a thought here but is it possible to eliminate the reflex save granted by the fireball spell to avoid getting hit if the enemy is in a create pit spell? The pit is 10ft by 10ft while the fireball explodes in a 20ft radius. I find it hard to believe a person can dodge a fireball in an enclosed space like that.
What do you guy's think? Sound possible or would it just depend on the GM and whether or not he'd allow it?
Nope you get that save unless you are in a condtion such as helpless that says you don't.
They would still get a save for half or even to negate if they have Evasion according to the rules if they are just standing in an empty pit. There is nothing saying the DM couldn't give significant penalties or something similar though since he really doesn't have any way to evade it though.
Wow. Quick responses.
Cool! I was merely curious.
Thanks for the feedback you guys.
Nope you get that save unless you are in a condtion such as helpless that says you don't.
Where does helpless say you don't get a save? You lose your dexterity bonus (and take a -5 in addition) to the save since you are treated as having Dex 0, but insofar as I can tell, you still get your save, helpless or not.
Nope you get that save unless you are in a condtion such as helpless that says you don't.Where does helpless say you don't get a save? You lose your dexterity bonus (and take a -5 in addition) to the save since you are treated as having Dex 0, but insofar as I can tell, you still get your save, helpless or not.
I was thinking evasion not reflex saves there thanks RD
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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If it helps your visualization of how a helpless or movement-restricted character could make a Reflex save like that, imagine that the spell effects are not completely uniform. Fireball is not 33510 cubic feet of solid flame, it's a volume that big with sheets of flame and bursts running through it, but there are small gaps that are less burny. Even immobile, a character could get lucky and be in a gap.
A simpler way to imagine it is that the character throws himself flat on the ground as the flames reach him; thus only half of his body's surface is exposed to open flame. Ta da! Half damage.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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A simpler way to imagine it is that the character throws himself flat on the ground as the flames reach him; thus only half of his body's surface is exposed to open flame. Ta da! Half damage.
Except characters that make saves aren't prone afterwards, and even a paralyzed flying creature in the exact center of the AoE can make a save.
Ah, the good old 'Saves are always applicable' discussion.
(Anyone else who thought about giving the party rogue some extra speed by zapping wands of create pit into his area? A successful Ref save will propel him into the safe zone... no matter whether or not he could have moved there on his own accord...)
Except characters that make saves aren't prone afterwards, and even a paralyzed flying creature in the exact center of the AoE can make a save.
True. In the former case I'd just hand wave the character freely regaining his footing following the blast while in the latter, I'd say he merely curled up into a ball in mid-air with the same results.
In fact, ducking-and-covering is likely the easiest way to minimize the surface of one's body left exposed while remaining on one's feet. So that should probably be the default assumption when making a saving throw vs an area affect.
(Anyone else who thought about giving the party rogue some extra speed by zapping wands of [i]create pit[i] into his area? A successful Ref save will propel him into the safe zone... no matter whether or not he could have moved there on his own accord...)
Actually, the create pit spell is damnably silent as to what occurs when a character saves. Most assume a creature ends up in an adjacent square, but it's just as easy to assume the creature is left clinging to the edge of the pit. The latter is more likely in fact since it doesn't grant extra movement and is also the only possible result if there are no unoccupied spaces near the pit's edge.
A reflex save can also be described by them curling into a ball (or similar) and minimizing surface area, hence half damage.
Nope you get that save unless you are in a condtion such as helpless that says you don't.Where does helpless say you don't get a save? You lose your dexterity bonus (and take a -5 in addition) to the save since you are treated as having Dex 0, but insofar as I can tell, you still get your save, helpless or not.
Just a note, it doesn't give you a -5 penalty.
It sets your bonus from Dex to your Reflex at -5. So you lose any other bonus from dex. Basically, if you had 16 Dex and a Reflex score (including Dex's contribution) of 7, then your reflex score would be -1, not 2.
Common misconception.
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In the even of a Pit + Fireball, if you are the DM I would suggest a Circumstance minus to the reflex saving throw. Say a -5.
Just as there are different types of bonuses, so too there can be bebuffs that are situational or story driven. For example, a "curse" that is part of the story and gives a -2 to Con, need not follow any set to fix rules as the "curse" is part of the story.
By the rules you can always make a saving throw regardless, and you can also choose to automatically fail them if desired.
But for me and a few others this seems a bit absurd, so we use these house rules.
1. You cannot ‘willingly’ fail a Fortitude save, this isn’t Star Wars people cant die by being emo.
2. If you are denied your dexterity modifier, such as from sneak attacks, you only add your Base Reflex save (no modifiers from Dexterity, feats, or class/racial abilities) to the d20 roll.
3. If you are held immobile or otherwise denied the ability to move you do not receive a Reflex Save.
4. If you are put in a situation in which evasive actions are impossible, such as being sealed in a box with a grenade, you do not receive a Reflex save (its your own stupid fault).
But we just like a little (not a lot) or realism for our off-kilter adventures.
Other examples of reflex saves could be.
*Holding ones shield in front of you to deflect a portion of the blast.
*Pulling your thick cloak over your face to protect your lungs from inhaling the flames.
*Reacting fast enough to whisper a plee to ones god to protect them.
*Turning so that your back and folding your arms around you to limit how much of your surface area is exposed.
These examples are awesome. Totally changes my idea of the reflex save. To me it was almost always just jumping out of the way. Thanks for sharing them!
Create pit and fireball isn't a combo I would use.
Create pit and sirocco- now there's a combo. Makes it hard to even fly out of the pit.
Create pit and fireball isn't a combo I would use.
Create pit and sirocco- now there's a combo. Makes it hard to even fly out of the pit.
Create Acid Pit and Summon Black Pudding makes for a real bad day. I wouldn't use it on a humanoid though. Thats just destroying party loot lol.
As for the save stuff. Yeah it makes very little common sense that a person could reflex in certain situations, but this is a game. And a fantasy game at that. How can you rule based on logic when you have a system that uses magic. Just doesn't work.
In a old 3.5 game we had a lvl 20 rogue/assassin take a job to kill the head of a church. An epic cleric ... 23 or something.
The pay was 200k or something. So he buys 100k in Necklace of Fireballs, gets a teleport right beside the cleric in his room as he is about to pray for spells, and throws the whole lot down at his feet....
Easiest 100k he ever made.
actually there's one instance when a creature is not allowed a reflex save against an area effect:
Snatch
This creature can grab other creatures with ease.
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the grab ability. If it grapples a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage with a successful grapple check. A snatched opponent held in the creature's mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature's breath weapon, if it has one.
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what does that imply ?
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actually there's one instance when a creature is not allowed a reflex save against an area effect:
what does that imply ?Snatch
This creature can grab other creatures with ease.
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the grab ability. If it grapples a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage with a successful grapple check. A snatched opponent held in the creature's mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature's breath weapon, if it has one.
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Breath Weapons are special and therefor gets more love?
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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actually there's one instance when a creature is not allowed a reflex save against an area effect:
what does that imply ?Snatch
This creature can grab other creatures with ease.
Prerequisite: Size Huge or larger.
Benefits: The creature can start a grapple when it hits with a claw or bite attack, as though it had the grab ability. If it grapples a creature three or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic bite or claw damage with a successful grapple check. A snatched opponent held in the creature's mouth is not allowed a Reflex save against the creature's breath weapon, if it has one.
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That being in a dragon's mouth is really bad?
Are you trying to imply that an explicit exception should be interpreted as a general rule?
Create pit and sirocco- now there's a combo. Makes it hard to even fly out of the pit.
How about create pit and wall of stone on top? Trash compactor anyone?
It's counter-intuitive, but there's no 'Chunky Salsa' rule for aoe attacks in confined spaces.
This is why grenades in Shadowrun are so much fun.
Create pit and fireball isn't a combo I would use.
Create pit and sirocco- now there's a combo. Makes it hard to even fly out of the pit.
Create Pit...Wall of Iron...cut out star and moon shapes with your adamantine dagger and wait
These examples are awesome. Totally changes my idea of the reflex save. To me it was almost always just jumping out of the way. Thanks for sharing them!Other examples of reflex saves could be.
*Holding ones shield in front of you to deflect a portion of the blast.
*Pulling your thick cloak over your face to protect your lungs from inhaling the flames.
*Reacting fast enough to whisper a plee to ones god to protect them.
*Turning so that your back and folding your arms around you to limit how much of your surface area is exposed.
Seconded. Whether or not that's really how Reflex saves work, it's a really cool way of looking at it!
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Nope you get that save unless you are in a condtion such as helpless that says you don't.Where does helpless say you don't get a save? You lose your dexterity bonus (and take a -5 in addition) to the save since you are treated as having Dex 0, but insofar as I can tell, you still get your save, helpless or not.Just a note, it doesn't give you a -5 penalty.
It sets your bonus from Dex to your Reflex at -5. So you lose any other bonus from dex. Basically, if you had 16 Dex and a Reflex score (including Dex's contribution) of 7, then your reflex score would be -1, not 2.
Common misconception.
You know what is funny ? If you are blinded, you get absolutely no penalty on your Reflex save
Now we know how Daredevil made it through all these explosions
Create pit and fireball isn't a combo I would use.
Create pit and sirocco- now there's a combo. Makes it hard to even fly out of the pit.
My favorite was a Hallucinatory terrain and Quickened create pit. My Dm ruled that they didn't get a save because they had no time to react. And the intimidation factor was great because our cleric would hold till after me and cast silence in the pit, and i'd claim to have pulled them to hell