I got a player with a Gunslinger and the other 6 players complain about its power, because it can so soo much dmg in so little time from distance and with touch attacks.
In top of that 2 good saves, a quick BAB, extra feats, good to strong abilities.
How would you proof Gunslinger is balanced (if it is) or not soo much stronger than other classes or how would you beat a gunslinger?
How much damage is it doing?
What level is the group?
How much damage is everyone else doing?
These questions will be asked.
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I got a player with a Gunslinger and the other 6 players complain about its power, because it can so soo much dmg in so little time from distance and with touch attacks.
In top of that 2 good saves, a quick BAB, extra feats, good to strong abilities.
How would you proof Gunslinger is balanced (if it is) or not soo much stronger than other classes or how would you beat a gunslinger?
Using math, the queen of sciences.
Failing at that, DPR Olympics threads.
I agree, it's a little weak compared to most other classes.
Oh, I guess that's not the point of this thread.
Any class can seem overpowered if the other members of the party aren't optimized.
I can make a rogue that marginalizes the rest of my main group.
A rogue.
How much damage is it doing?
What level is the group?
How much damage is everyone else doing?These questions will be asked.
Level 10 Pistolero Archetype
Dual Revolvers +2 eachDamage 1d8 +10 (+7 Dex +2 enhacenment +1 Gun Training)
5 attacks (2 normal attacks, +1 Two weapon fighting, +1 rapid shot, +1 (Boots of Haste)
Since firearms use touch attacks he almost never miss unless roll a natural 1 even with the -6 penalty from two weapon fighting + rapid shot. Cluster Shot allow him just apply DR once. Next Level 11 would get worst I guess with Signature Deed Up Close and Deadly so he will be able to do 3d6 extra damage per attack free without expending grit points.
Feats
Two Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Cluster Shot
Improved Initiative
How much damage is it doing?
What level is the group?
How much damage is everyone else doing?These questions will be asked.
Everyone else is Level 10 as well. The main problem probably is because the rest of the melee party members miss a lot due to the fact that they arent hitting touch attacks and their 2nd attack from base attack almost always miss.
So even though a Barbarian, a Fighter, an Aegis, a Magus, a rogue can do a lot more damage they usually dont because they miss more or they always need to run and chase the enemy for a single attack each round while the gunslinger just stay in the same spot shooting full attack rounds.
How much damage is it doing?
What level is the group?
How much damage is everyone else doing?These questions will be asked.
Level 10 Pistolero Archetype
Dual Revolvers +2 each
Damage 1d8 +10 (+7 Dex +2 enhacenment +1 Gun Training)5 attacks (2 normal attacks, +1 Two weapon fighting, +1 rapid shot, +1 (Boots of Haste)
Since firearms use touch attacks he almost never miss unless roll a natural 1 even with the -6 penalty from two weapon fighting + rapid shot. Cluster Shot allow him just apply DR once. Next Level 11 would get worst I guess with Signature Deed Up Close and Deadly so he will be able to do 3d6 extra damage per attack free without expending grit points.
Feats
Two Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Cluster Shot
Improved Initiative
That would indeed be close to the most optimal gunslinger. Just needs double pistols.
It does Have Revolvers +2 (adv weapon) x 2. (See above Dual Revolvers)
Paul is asking why revolvers were allowed.
Why are you using revolvers? They're advanced firearms which are only supposed to be available in a campaign where guns are very common, at which point the fighter would be using guns as well.
Umm so everyone here just use Early Firearms? WELL that would explain why everyone keeps saying that Gunslingers dont dish out much damage. It makes a lot of difference if its an early Pistol or a Revolver.
How much damage is it doing?
What level is the group?
How much damage is everyone else doing?These questions will be asked.
Level 10 Pistolero Archetype
Dual Revolvers +2 each
Damage 1d8 +10 (+7 Dex +2 enhacenment +1 Gun Training)5 attacks (2 normal attacks, +1 Two weapon fighting, +1 rapid shot, +1 (Boots of Haste)
Since firearms use touch attacks he almost never miss unless roll a natural 1 even with the -6 penalty from two weapon fighting + rapid shot. Cluster Shot allow him just apply DR once. Next Level 11 would get worst I guess with Signature Deed Up Close and Deadly so he will be able to do 3d6 extra damage per attack free without expending grit points.
Feats
Two Weapon Fighting
Quick Draw
Rapid Reload
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Precise Shot
Cluster Shot
Improved Initiative
He does not have improved precise shot to account for soft cover. That is another -4 penalty if anyone is in between him and the target.
He can also only use touch attacks within a certain range(charging distance of most monsters), unless he uses grit which has limited uses.
What is everyone else playing that is complaining.
It seem that when hasted the if all the attacks hit, which is unlikely the gunslinger averages about 70 DPR. When he misfires that also affects the average.
An archer can do that without being hasted, and me assuming all the attacks will hit.
Paul is asking why revolvers were allowed.
Well they were in the book hehe. I almost never banned anything that come from the official Pathfinder books.
How much damage is it doing?
What level is the group?
How much damage is everyone else doing?These questions will be asked.
Everyone else is Level 10 as well. The main problem probably is because the rest of the melee party members miss a lot due to the fact that they arent hitting touch attacks and their 2nd attack from base attack almost always miss.
So even though a Barbarian, a Fighter, an Aegis, a Magus, a rogue can do a lot more damage they usually dont because they miss more or they always need to run and chase the enemy for a single attack each round while the gunslinger just stay in the same spot shooting full attack rounds.
The magus and rogue are not designed to deal primary damage anyway. The barbarian should be doing over 50 DPR, and can hit 70 depending on the build.
It seems that the one player is just more focused on damage.|
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Paul is asking why revolvers were allowed.Well they were in the book hehe. I almost never banned anything that come from the official Pathfinder books.
Revolvers are intended for steampunk/far west era campaigns or places where they are commonplace, and pretty much everyone has defenses against them. Put an enchantment wizard in a campaign where every foe is a fighter to obtain the same result.
Did you read the rules, or was it your player that asked to use them while forgetting some little details ?
Paul is asking why revolvers were allowed.Well they were in the book hehe. I almost never banned anything that come from the official Pathfinder books.Revolvers are intended for steampunk/far west era campaigns or places where they are commonplace, and pretty much everyone has defenses against them. Put an enchantment wizard in a campaign where every foe is a fighter to obtain the same result.
Did you read the rules, or was it your player that asked to use them while forgetting some little details ?
I did not know that(certain guns should be restricted) either, but I still think thinking 70ish points of damage, under the very best circumstance is not too much, but if the other players are not use to someone doing damage like that I can see the issue.
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Everyone else is Level 10 as well. The main problem probably is because the rest of the melee party members miss a lot due to the fact that they aren't hitting touch attacks and their 2nd attack from base attack almost always miss.
So even though a Barbarian, a Fighter, an Aegis, a Magus, a rogue can do a lot more damage they usually don't because they miss more or they always need to run and chase the enemy for a single attack each round while the gunslinger just stay in the same spot shooting full attack rounds.
Sounds to me like you'd hear the same complaints if you were playing just a regular archer. I'm honestly a bit surprised at the whole 2nd attack almost always misses thing. What kind of insane AC's is your GM throwing at you?
Paul is asking why revolvers were allowed.Well they were in the book hehe. I almost never banned anything that come from the official Pathfinder books.
That is...not wise, my friend.
Sounds to me like you'd hear the same complaints if you were playing just a regular archer. I'm honestly a bit surprised at the whole 2nd attack almost always misses thing. What kind of insane AC's is your GM throwing at you?Everyone else is Level 10 as well. The main problem probably is because the rest of the melee party members miss a lot due to the fact that they aren't hitting touch attacks and their 2nd attack from base attack almost always miss.
So even though a Barbarian, a Fighter, an Aegis, a Magus, a rogue can do a lot more damage they usually don't because they miss more or they always need to run and chase the enemy for a single attack each round while the gunslinger just stay in the same spot shooting full attack rounds.
I am wondering about that also. It is either that or a badly built barbarian.
Sounds to me like you'd hear the same complaints if you were playing just a regular archer. I'm honestly a bit surprised at the whole 2nd attack almost always misses thing. What kind of insane AC's is your GM throwing at you?Everyone else is Level 10 as well. The main problem probably is because the rest of the melee party members miss a lot due to the fact that they aren't hitting touch attacks and their 2nd attack from base attack almost always miss.
So even though a Barbarian, a Fighter, an Aegis, a Magus, a rogue can do a lot more damage they usually don't because they miss more or they always need to run and chase the enemy for a single attack each round while the gunslinger just stay in the same spot shooting full attack rounds.
Bestiary says CR 10 make your own monster should be around 24, yea I can see a lot of second iterative attacks missing even if your bonus is stout. It's generally the major limiter in the DPR olympics threads is the miss chance.
I am wondering about that also. It is either that or a badly built barbarian.Sounds to me like you'd hear the same complaints if you were playing just a regular archer. I'm honestly a bit surprised at the whole 2nd attack almost always misses thing. What kind of insane AC's is your GM throwing at you?Everyone else is Level 10 as well. The main problem probably is because the rest of the melee party members miss a lot due to the fact that they aren't hitting touch attacks and their 2nd attack from base attack almost always miss.
So even though a Barbarian, a Fighter, an Aegis, a Magus, a rogue can do a lot more damage they usually don't because they miss more or they always need to run and chase the enemy for a single attack each round while the gunslinger just stay in the same spot shooting full attack rounds.
There is no bad build Barbarian but there are always bad rolls. If a monster is hit with a 13+ with highest atk roll then a second atk would be 18. Or a 10 with primary atk would be 15 with second one, but in the Gunslinger case would miss with just natural 1s and if the second have any chance to miss still probably hit with a roll of 3-5 in the 1d20.
There is no bad build Barbarian but there are always bad rolls. If a monster is hit with a 13+ with highest atk roll then a second atk would be 18. Or a 10 with primary atk would be 15 with second one, but in the Gunslinger case would miss with just natural 1s and if the second have any chance to miss still probably hit with a roll of 3-5 in the 1d20.I am wondering about that also. It is either that or a badly built barbarian.Sounds to me like you'd hear the same complaints if you were playing just a regular archer. I'm honestly a bit surprised at the whole 2nd attack almost always misses thing. What kind of insane AC's is your GM throwing at you?Everyone else is Level 10 as well. The main problem probably is because the rest of the melee party members miss a lot due to the fact that they aren't hitting touch attacks and their 2nd attack from base attack almost always miss.
So even though a Barbarian, a Fighter, an Aegis, a Magus, a rogue can do a lot more damage they usually don't because they miss more or they always need to run and chase the enemy for a single attack each round while the gunslinger just stay in the same spot shooting full attack rounds.
A melee focused character should not need higher than a 9 to hit a CR 10 opponent unless he is power attacking, and maybe not even then
22(+6)(includes levels and belt +4) +2 weapon at least= +8 to hit +10( BAB)=18 to hit
Even power attacking he gets 15/10. If he rages that goes up to 17/12. The rogue should be flanking by round 2 so we are at 19/14
If he got haste also then it is 20/15.
Both attacks should hit.
2d6+12+9power attack). All 3 attack might not hit 70, but he should clear 60, and that was off the top of my head. If someone sat down and took the time to include feats I am sure they could do better.
Revolvers are one problem. When you allow gunslingers to get touch attacks out to 100ft from the enemy and reload the entire weapon as a move or, with rapid reload, free action gunslingers can be quite powerful. They have little to fear from using deadly aim with rapid shot and two weapon fighting because their attacks resolve against touch and for the most part it won't matter how many negative modifiers the gunslinger has to hit.
I got a player with a Gunslinger and the other 6 players complain about its power, because it can so soo much dmg in so little time from distance and with touch attacks.
In top of that 2 good saves, a quick BAB, extra feats, good to strong abilities.
How would you proof Gunslinger is balanced (if it is) or not soo much stronger than other classes or how would you beat a gunslinger?
The gunslinger becomes weaker as time progresses. Some classes just are better at certain levels. The gunslinger excels at lower levels however starts to become very weak later levels. This is because the class can't keep up with master summoners, 2H fighters, paladins,Archer rangers, vivisectionist alchemists, inquisitors, zen archer monks, or magi.
Gunslingers aren't all pisterlos.
So if you have issues with pisterlos, don't blame gunslingers blame the archetype.
It should also be pointed out that Ultimate Combat has weapons from three different eras, primitive, medieval/eastern, advanced. While it is unlikely that a player would choose to use a weapon from the primitive era, the GM should still set the current era of the campaign and offer appropriate weapons to all players (restricting the other eras).
Well they were in the book hehe. I almost never banned anything that come from the official Pathfinder books.That is...not wise, my friend.
I wholeheartedly agree. Paizo offers a lot of options. They aren't all meant to go together.
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It should also be pointed out that Ultimate Combat has weapons from three different eras, primitive, medieval/eastern, advanced. While it is unlikely that a player would choose to use a weapon from the primitive era, the GM should still set the current era of the campaign and offer appropriate weapons to all players (restricting the other eras).
I wholeheartedly agree. Paizo offers a lot of options. They aren't all meant to go together.Well they were in the book hehe. I almost never banned anything that come from the official Pathfinder books.That is...not wise, my friend.
Yep exactly.
My Gunslinger uses the Pistol from Primitive Guns. Seriously limiting.
I did not know advanced firearms allowed touch attacks out so far. I think the GM needs to account for that.
PS:I think the OP is a player, not the GM, which I realized after reading his opening post again. The GM did not do his research it seems. It happens to the best of us.
I got a player with a Gunslinger and the other 6 players complain about its power, because it can so soo much dmg in so little time from distance and with touch attacks.
In top of that 2 good saves, a quick BAB, extra feats, good to strong abilities.
How would you proof Gunslinger is balanced (if it is) or not soo much stronger than other classes or how would you beat a gunslinger?
If revolver are allowed all other martial classes can use it too. Non martial can take a feats to use them.
My advice is to not use advanced firearms. Or change the rules, giving firearms some base armor penetration (4,6, 8 - range penalties).
If you use advanced firearms some thing should change in the world you are playing. Bows, crossbows and a lot of melee weapons would be abandoned. I suggest that you use primitive guns. I have an inquisitor that use guns, and a revolver is too much. Maybe you can give it at highers levels. Well, just try and see what happens.
Exactly what i did was use the Armor as DR rules and added the Class Defense Bonus from 3.5 Unearthed Arcana but don't allow them to stack.
Either you have Decent DR (which guns don't bypass) or you have a high armor Class from the defense bonus which also boost your touch AC.
So Even using Advanced Firearms it hasn't changed much else other than the fact that our campaign setting also has semi auto crossbows.
Umm so everyone here just use Early Firearms? WELL that would explain why everyone keeps saying that Gunslingers dont dish out much damage. It makes a lot of difference if its an early Pistol or a Revolver.
Take a look at the section about firearm periods. The board (and the book itself) assumes the Emerging Guns period. Playing in other periods does change how the world works, primarily by making all other ranged weapons less appealing. Which it should at those points since that's the historical effect of firearms.
Since you haven't said otherwise, the base assumption period is what your player should be dealing with. That means, "Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items— the stuff of high-level treasure troves."
So unless you're in the habit of letting players arm themselves with artifacts and major magic items at tenth level, he probably has revolvers far too soon.
Oh, and the big issue of avoiding misfire is a problem with the archetype, not the class.
Quick load + metal cartridges + quick strings + pistol = Revolver.
Quick load + metal cartridges + pepperbox = Revolver.
Revolvers aren't all that wondrous and withholding revolvers till epic levels only makes the gunslinger waste a low level feat.
Since you haven't said otherwise, the base assumption period is what your player should be dealing with. That means, "Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items— the stuff of high-level treasure troves."
So unless you're in the habit of letting players arm themselves with artifacts and major magic items at tenth level, he probably has revolvers far too soon.
The base cost of 4000 gp does not an artifact make while you may feel it is not kosher to have such an item at 10th level and even enchanted its only 12,000 per gun now granted that is a sizable chunk of cash for that level. That does not mean that its beyond the pale if the game is going to be wrapping up at say 12th level and he just got them. Then in that games individual context it seems like high level treasure troves. It all depends on how folks at an individual table are defining "high level".
If they are common and they choose to use the "more common firearms" options the price drops significantly, enough that I would consider picking up amateur gunslinger/ EWP at 11 if I was at that table.
Edit: But even with that I will echo Cheapy: a blanket acceptance of any and all material by any publisher can have unforeseen consequences for your game as often that one book is not analyzed holistically with the others in the game line.
Quick load + metal cartridges + quick strings + pistol = Revolver.
Quick load + metal cartridges + pepperbox = Revolver.
Revolvers aren't all that wondrous and withholding revolvers till epic levels only makes the gunslinger waste a low level feat.
Change, because you need 2 hand to do multiple shots and can't use 2 weapon fighting.
Quick load + metal cartridges + quick strings + pistol = Revolver.
Quick load + metal cartridges + pepperbox = Revolver.
Revolvers aren't all that wondrous and withholding revolvers till epic levels only makes the gunslinger waste a low level feat.
Revolvers do more than simply hold six rounds. They hit touch AC up to five range increments, which means they hit touch up to 100ft by default. That is like a longbow that hits touch AC.
Also, revolvers require metal cartridges, 15gp each. If he's blowing through 60-90 gp each combat round once his secret stash runs out, that will swiftly start impacting his comparative wealth.
Also, revolvers require metal cartridges, 15gp each. If he's blowing through 60-90 gp each combat round once his secret stash runs out, that will swiftly start impacting his comparative wealth.
He's a gunslinger which means he crafts his own rounds, which means about 1.5 gp a shot or less.
This is not a problem, with 2k you can have infinite ammunitions of adamantine or silver material. A simple magic items activated at use of a 1st level spells (abundant ammunitions)
That is...not wise, my friend.Paul is asking why revolvers were allowed.Well they were in the book hehe. I almost never banned anything that come from the official Pathfinder books.
Yep, that was mistake number one! Just because it's in print doesn't mean it's balanced.
As others have said, if such weapons are freely available then all melee characters would have evolved into Clint Eastwood by now. It's your game but the best bit of DM advice I can give is learn to say no to your players. Balance is everything.
This is not a problem, with 2k you can have infinite ammunitions of adamantine or silver material. A simple magic items activated at use of a 1st level spells (abundant ammunitions)
And then the GM whaps you with the CRB, and then points out the line saying "THESE ARE GUIDELINES ONLY".
A GM who allows that sort of item has already decided that balance is out the window, so why bother bringing it up?
I did not know advanced firearms allowed touch attacks out so far. I think the GM needs to account for that.
PS:I think the OP is a player, not the GM, which I realized after reading his opening post again. The GM did not do his research it seems. It happens to the best of us.
The GM did his research and he did knew about the 5 range increments for adv weapons. The ones that are always complaining are the rest of the players due to the fact that the gunslinger is always hitting and always doing a lot of dmg before anyone else could even get close or hit an enemy. The Gunslinger is one of these characters that wipe monsters out before anyone else touch them.
In a long dungeon spells caster get out of spells in a few battles but gunslingers keep going and going. I thought ammo would be an issue for the gunslinger since they are expensive in comparison with arrows but with the new wizard spell in Ultimate Combat that can make bullets it became quite cheap.
Also, revolvers require metal cartridges, 15gp each. If he's blowing through 60-90 gp each combat round once his secret stash runs out, that will swiftly start impacting his comparative wealth.
Yeah at first was an issue and the gunslinger was feeling his pocket get empty but after the wizard took the spell to make bullets everything changed.
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Well, if you had an archer in the group instead of a Gunslinger, you'd be looking at a similar situation. Damage in combat is about making full attacks, the single biggest specialty of the Ranged combatant.
Considering the Wizard is helping this guy with his spells, I'd say that part of the Gunslinger's contribution to combat should be attributed to having the Wizard there. It's no different than a Wizard casting Haste on the party and they go nuts and kill everything. Much better than a fireball if you have at least a couple physical combatants on your team.
As with having any ranged fighter in the group, the party should expect them to overwhelm at the start of combat. In fact, the party shouldn't be complaining, but rather coordinating tactics and banking on this situation.
its not gunslingers that are overpowered, its dual revolvers when no one else has them. if yur not giving them to every full BAB NPC then yur player shouldn't have them either. I played a gun slinger and at lvl 10 I was getting 6 attacks, all of which hit everytime dealing an average of 120 damage/rnd, more if I crit. at one point my party cast greater invisibility and fly on me and sent me in to single handedly destroy boss a fight 5 CR's ahead of me which only took me 3 rounds. either A- stick with black powder, or B- give all full BAB a revolver
Well, if you had an archer in the group instead of a Gunslinger, you'd be looking at a similar situation. Damage in combat is about making full attacks, the single biggest specialty of the Ranged combatant.
Considering the Wizard is helping this guy with his spells, I'd say that part of the Gunslinger's contribution to combat should be attributed to having the Wizard there. It's no different than a Wizard casting Haste on the party and they go nuts and kill everything. Much better than a fireball if you have at least a couple physical combatants on your team.
As with having any ranged fighter in the group, the party should expect them to overwhelm at the start of combat. In fact, the party shouldn't be complaining, but rather coordinating tactics and banking on this situation.
hitting touch AC is a colossal difference between the 2