Help me find a niche to fit in...


Advice


I'm playing with a rather large group of friends a PF campaign and i'm a rogue.
Due to the abnormal number of people every niche is already covered and i'm struggling to fit a niche to fit in.
Damage is handled by Ranger,fighter,Inquisitor
Face is handled by Bard and fey sorcerer charm specialist.
control and support by wizard and druid and sorcerer and bard
Druid (panther shaman)and ranger can stealth decently and act as scouts.
My only niche is to be the trap handler/spotter and covert ops teacher.
(some are new to the game, so i'm teaching by example on how to move stealtily, avoid to be tracked etc)

But it's a bit dull, to be honest.
So, i've asked to my gm the permisison to rebuild the character from scratch and he gave me one condition:
The Pc must still has some rogue levels. (the PC is lvl 7 atm)

Any advice on how to build myself a little niche to fit in?
Personally i've been considering dipping into lvl 2 rogue to get evasion
and then considering a synthesist
(seems a lot fun, the eidolon armor reminbds me a lot of Saint seiya)

Core, APG, and Ultimates are the books allowed.

Thanks a lot.

The Exchange

Looks to me like what your group needs most by far... is another GM. Right now, each player is getting 1/10 of the "feature time". A good GM can handle a 10-player party but it really is a strain: whereas if you took 4 players and left him 5, everybody at both tables would be getting more face time.

Of course, I don't know your situation - whether you'd be comfortable GMing or whether the GM would be insulted if you "stole" players, etc. It was just a thought.

Shadow Lodge

Well, until you said that being the stealth/covert ops guy didn't interest you, I was gonna say that. I do notice that you said covert ops TEACHER. This is the wrong way to play it, in my less-than-humble opinion. If you're trying to do something stealthily, then you don't bring along Sir Clangs-a-Lot, Sneezy the Wizard, and St. Prays Loudly. Instead of you trying to bring the whole party along when you do the stealth thing, try going alone. Hell, I played a character that was maximized around stealth once...to the point where we decided that the guy in the party with no bonus to Perception didn't actually know I was in the party. :P

At any rate, a few levels of rogue goes pretty good with most classes, with obvious exceptions like Paladin. I think rogue makes an especially good multi-class with fighters, sorcerers, or witches.

Liberty's Edge

I agree, another GM would be great for your group, though I'm only seeing 7 classes with you being the 8th, rather than the 10th.

Other than that, I don't really have any suggestions on what you could build to stand out. What do you most enjoy playing?


Is third party stuff allowed? Such as SGG, Rite, or WotC?

Will the GM be fine if you have no levels of rogue, but have trapfinding?

What about a crafter / artificer?


bradipus wrote:

...Damage is handled by Ranger,fighter,Inquisitor

Face is handled by Bard and fey sorcerer charm specialist.
control and support by wizard and druid and sorcerer and bard
Druid (panther shaman)and ranger can stealth decently and act as scouts...

My suggestion would be sniper archer or sniper gunslinger. Not for general wholesale damage dealing. But to shut down 1 specific opponent before he can become to much of a problem. Depends upon you GM though whether or not it can actually work out that way.


I would go witch, and provide some debuffing as well as some condition removal/healing (which your party actually lacks somewhat). That is ofcourse assuming the answer to cheapy's question is no, otherwise I would have a few suggestions based on 3rd party material.


Kthulhu wrote:

Well, until you said that being the stealth/covert ops guy didn't interest you, I was gonna say that. I do notice that you said covert ops TEACHER. This is the wrong way to play it, in my less-than-humble opinion. If you're trying to do something stealthily, then you don't bring along Sir Clangs-a-Lot, Sneezy the Wizard, and St. Prays Loudly. Instead of you trying to bring the whole party along when you do the stealth thing, try going alone. Hell, I played a character that was maximized around stealth once...to the point where we decided that the guy in the party with no bonus to Perception didn't actually know I was in the party. :P

At any rate, a few levels of rogue goes pretty good with most classes, with obvious exceptions like Paladin. I think rogue makes an especially good multi-class with fighters, sorcerers, or witches.

i don't bring ser clang a lot,and the wizard, but only the panther druid and the ranger who can stealth almost as good as me, but they have never player before at all so, they need a bit of coaching to perform effectivel as scout.


ShadowcatX wrote:

I agree, another GM would be great for your group, though I'm only seeing 7 classes with you being the 8th, rather than the 10th.

Other than that, I don't really have any suggestions on what you could build to stand out. What do you most enjoy playing?

forgot to mention the cleric in that..


Kolokotroni wrote:
I would go witch, and provide some debuffing as well as some condition removal/healing (which your party actually lacks somewhat). That is ofcourse assuming the answer to cheapy's question is no, otherwise I would have a few suggestions based on 3rd party material.

as i wrote before, i forgot to mention the cleric which handles the removal healing with inquisitor, druid and bard contributing a bit to the workload.

i didn't give you many details..
Well the situation in which i'm in is quite unique in itsellf..
in my group 6 players have never played before, and 2 have very little experience.
The previous concept i had form my char was based on the Nightcrawler build which floats on the web, which i liked, but before unleashing its potential i'll have to wait at least until 12th lvl, but when it does the results will be very good..maybe too much.
(dimensional pouncing SA-ing FTW).
I'm afraid that in the long run other players will be overshadowed and may lose interest in the RPGs, which is a thing i'd like to avoid because i like it a lot and i'd like to share the joy around.
So i'm willing to gimp myself (hence the limitation on Core, APG and ultimateS)and find a middle ground in which i can help.
The intention of my post isn't to rant "my DM doesn't pay attention to me because we are a lot" but "how can I contribute to the party in an effective way since most of the traditional rogue roles (except trap spotters) are already taken?


I'm just going to assume 3rd party stuff is allowed. That's generally the best place to look for new niches, IMO.

I think a support role would be best for you. Since these are new players, making them more awesome might make them play longer. Or at least get them hooked :)

I may be a bit biased, since I wrote the thing, but The Secrets of Tactical Archetypes is great for this. The Inspiring Commander (cavalier archetype that gets some bardic performances, and is just awesome at helping others out), Mechanist (anti-spellcaster gunslinger, and trapfinding), and War Warder (defensive oriented Magus that protects his allies) would all fill niches that aren't filled in your group. You have a lot of martial characters, so support roles will be a huge force multiplier.

SGG's Time Thief would also be an unfilled niche. It's also available on PFSRD if you want to preview it.

The Luckbringer by Rite is also pretty interesting. Ever wanted to stand still in the middle of the battlefield and have mishaps happen around you, doing damage that way? This class lets you do that. Also has support roles.

Could go for a Spell Sunder barbarian too. Smash fog clouds away!


bradipus wrote:


The intention of my post isn't to rant "my DM doesn't pay attention to me because we are a lot" but "how can I contribute to the party in an effective way since most of the traditional rogue roles (except trap spotters) are already taken?

Well if you peruse the forums you will notice a lot of people voicing the opinion that rogues are of limited use to the party. Sadly maybe doubly so in one with that many players. The you must still have some rogue levels thing hurts you, unless he would accept urban ranger as a substitute.

As to advice, if your damage guys are melee not ranged then a ranged character with 1-2 levels of rogue might be an option or rogue 2/ melee class 5 and take gang up feat where you will be getting sneak attack more often as you wont need to maneuver as much to be treated as flanking (assuming the melee guys wolf pack).

Rogue X is of limited use to a caster class other than maybe bard, inquisitor, maybe summoner or an arcane trickster build.

There may be some room for a summoner build where you and the eidolon flank kill one opponent while the other guys deal with other ones. You and the eidolon take the precise strike teamwork feat so you are picking up 2d6 "sneak attack" and the eidolon an additional 1d6 when you flank an enemy with only 2 levels of rogue. Summoner 4 gives you the almighty haste spell access so that you can buff the party that way and allow the other control/ buffers to use something else first round. Figure out a way to add a level of Sohei monk and always act in a surprise round and pick up all martial weapon proficiency grab a tasty reach weapon for when the eidolon eventually can become large (or you enlarge it with spells) to grab some tasty, tasty, reach for that flanking ability you have. Also as sohei gets a mount you can look into mounted combat options if the game has that feel. Then create a quadruped eidolon and use the speed of the 2 of you to move in lance charge flank while the eidolon goes all pounce charge flank style.

Edit: the more I think about it rogue 2-5 (snap shot trick,minimum) diviner wizard (1) zen archer 1-4(depending on how many rogue levels you take) might make for an interesting archer build. You almost always will go first in a surprise round to shoot someone with a sneak attack shot. Gravity bow is a wizard spell so you can boost damage throughput. Perfect strike with your bow and depending on the ratio of rogue to monk either point blank master and weapon focus with the bow or more sneak attack damage and possibly bleeding attack. as long as your int is at least 11 the rest of the stats could be however you wish.


I would advise not having a class with an animal companion / eidolon. There are enough people already!

One or two levels of rogue won't be too bad, if the rest are the other class. One satisfies the requirement, two gives Rogue Talents, which are actually pretty cool.

Dark Archive

Just be a straight synthesist summoner, take an evolution for +8 perception, and cast detect magic to find magic traps.

Synthesist "rogue" summoner (half-ling); Small Naga (snake) form form

Str: 5 (11)
Int: 16
Wis: 14
Dex: 9 (25)
Con: 12
Chr: 18
Trait: Perception class skill, Disable device class skill
Evolutions: +8 Perception, +4 Dex, Limbs (arms), claws, electric attack
Skills: Perception: +22 Stealth: +18 Disable Device: +18; Diplomacy: +15, few splashes

Feats: Extra Evolution (2), Augment Summons
Magic items: amulet of Mighty fist (Agility), +2 Cloak of protection, ideally a +2 dex belt for eidilon and a few armor buffs.

Attacks: +14 each for d3+7+d6 * 4 (d4 on bite, -5 on tailslap to hit)

A stealthy, trapfinding machine with insane AC and solid (not amazing, but good) damage output, who can serve as a 3rd face and primary scout.


Thalin wrote:
Just be a straight synthesist summoner, take an evolution for +8 perception, and cast detect magic to find magic traps.

He cant be a straight any class except rogue due to the conditions of his rebuild.

Cheapy wrote:


I would advise not having a class with an animal companion / eidolon. There are enough people already!

One or two levels of rogue won't be too bad, if the rest are the other class. One satisfies the requirement, two gives Rogue Talents, which are actually pretty cool.

I actually agree and posted an odd-ball archer option as well.

Dark Archive

Ah, missed that. Ok, rogue 1, same build, -1 to hit. I lost an evolution point in that build anyway. The d6 sneak attack is solid with 4 attacks, so you'll still be strong, and you'll have trapfinding so can take 2 traits for saves. Also a lot more skill points to splash around, so it won't be bad.


bradipus wrote:

i don't bring ser clang a lot,and the wizard, but only the panther druid and the ranger who can stealth almost as good as me, but they have never player before at all so, they need a bit of coaching to perform effectivel as scout.

Apparently you need a scout-team-leader, so i´d do just that, but more officially/exspressively and effectively. Spice up the rogue with sniper- and scout-archetype (sneak-attack on charge at 4th level) and go from there.

With the 3 levels left, you can give the character another twist yet. Assassin and Hidden Sniper ( JBE/ River Nations) come to mind.

More general advice, considering your party size/exspirience:
Recommend to the group that you scout ahead with druid/ ranger as back-up, identify target, let them go ahead, cover them or charge as appropriate...
Think about keeping this team together and also form up the others in more or less fixed teams with operating procedures/ buffing routines
( inuisitor, fighter,+... = heavy-team, wizard, cleric,+...= magic, yours= stealth/difficult-terrain)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Honestly, I agree with Lincoln Hills. Become a GM for half the group. Who cares that most of them are new? Sometimes vets trying to show people "how to play" makes things worse and newbs' creativity is stifled as they try to figure out the system in their own way. Sometimes an all new group figuring it out together can be valuable. (Also, speaking as a GM, I would rather swallow tar than run a 10 player game.) But, that said....

For a rogue build in a large group:
Congratulations, the rogue is a versatile class with a ton of skill points, so there's lots of ways you can go with this even single class. As others say, just focusing on scouting and stealth seems to be the way to go and nothing to be ashamed of in that. But for more specialization...

Are the damage-dealers all melee or are there some ranged?

If few ranged, you could make a rogue/sniper build. If there are a mix of melee and ranged already, you should still be able to be a good secondary meleer--be a flanking buddy, get off your sneak attack while helping the other guys hit better.

Rogues don't deal lots of damage, but they can be awesomely mobile with usually a high Dex and Acrobatics as a class skill. Best rogue I've seen didn't deal a lot of damage but was all over the place distracting enemies, moving through threatened areas with ease to set up nasty flanking positions, etc. Defense-wise focus on being the guy who never gets hit (or be defensive in a different way--be a half-orc rogue with the resiliency rogue talent, and be frustratingly hard to knock down). In my personal experience, the most effective rogues in combat aren't the ones dealing tons of damage per se, but they're moving about, harrying and weakening the enemy so the spellcasters and weaponmasters can trounc'em when they're down.

Shadowdancers can be fun. Some might say not optimized, but there's no optimization in a party that big so it's about what's amusing to you. Even just a dip for hide in plain sight and shadow jump can be really helpful--improves good mobility even more, and HIPS makes your stealth role, which you said was the one thing you really get to shine in, even all the more awesome.

Or for something completely different: you've got the most skill points in the party, probably (or at least are in the top three). Spare a skill point for a Craft or Profession or Knowledge... something practical you can assist the party with in non combat. The usefulness of these skills can vary according to campaign type, but if it seems like they'd be handy. Team up with the party spellcasters to make magic items--you provide the masterwork item, they provide the magic.

Finally--in a group that large, probably all of the players are feeling exactly the way you do. The bard's probably bummed he can't skill monkey because you step on his toes. The ranger and fighter feel like they can't out damage the other. Etc. You might ask the other players how THEY feel about the situation as a whole and how you can all help each other feel more valuable in such a large group (and accept that some toes are going to be stepped on in these circumstances no matter what).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'll echo the bit about your skill points. With intelligence being a favorite dump stat and even those that do need Int focusing on a narrow range of skills, often a request for a specific skill test can result in a sea of blank faces.

Appraise and Linguistics are usefuls skill that doesn't get nearly enough points in my experience, and I've been amazed at how often Profession: Mapmaking (a skill I took for my character took on a whim) has turned out to be useful.

When you rework your character give him a reasonable high Int and Dex, become a literal "Skill Monkey". Try and remember what skill checks result in blank stares at your table and put some points in those. Don't be afraid to take the Cosmopolitan feat, giving you two languages and two class skills it may be one of the most under-utilized feats in the game.


Rogue 2 / Fighter X

Enough Rogue to get Evasion and Talents. If you want more talents you can get them via feats. Make your primary class an archer of some kind.

I agree about taking the rarely taken skills for your character.

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