Quick question with a hopefully obvious answer: how does a barbarian with Spell Sunder actually recognize spell effects in order to know to sunder them? I love the ability, but I don't want to let it function purely on metagamey player knowledge.
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Smash everything. It's the only way to be sure.
Quick question with a hopefully obvious answer: how does a barbarian with Spell Sunder actually recognize spell effects in order to know to sunder them? I love the ability, but I don't want to let it function purely on metagamey player knowledge.
I'm sure that certain spells' effects are rather obvious, even though others' may not be. Perhaps the barbarian has a keen magical awareness? Superstitious and witch hunter are prerequisites, so in the course of all that hating on casters, they should have grown attuned to the presence of magic.
I would chalk it up to a sixth sense or some such.
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PROBABLY.
AM EXCELLENT QUESTION, ASPIRING BARBARIAN. AM SEVERAL WAYS TO TELL SOMETHING AM MAGIC. PERMANENCY ARCANE SIGHT (USE WAND, MAKE CASTY MAKE PERMANENT FOR COST OF NOT MURDER CASTY+COMPONENTS) AM EASIEST. OTHERWISE, SIMPLY USE WISDOM SCORE AND ENGINEERING DEGREE TO TELL.
MAZE SUDDENLY POP UP AROUND BARBARIAN? PROBABLY SPELL, BEST TO SMASH. GUY ON TEAM HAVE FUNNY LOOK IN EYE AFTER CASTY MAKES RUDE GESTURES? PROBABLY SPELL, BEST TO SMASH. INVISIBLE WALL? SMASH. RANDOM BREEZE? SMASH. THING HAPPEN WHEN CASTY MOVES? SMASH. THING APPEARS RANDOMLY? SMASH. FULL ATTACKING CASTY?
SMASH WITH FIRST ATTACK, JUST TO BE SAFE. RAGELANCEPOUNCE SMASH WITH REST OF ATTACKS.
PERCEPTION AM CLASS SKILL FOR BARBARIAN. BARBARIAN AM USE PERCEPTION AND WISDOM SCORE TO FIGURE OUT.
AM NOT STUPID. AM CRAZY GENIUS.
Quick question with a hopefully obvious answer: how does a barbarian with Spell Sunder actually recognize spell effects in order to know to sunder them? I love the ability, but I don't want to let it function purely on metagamey player knowledge.I'm sure that certain spells' effects are rather obvious, even though others' may not be. Perhaps the barbarian has a keen magical awareness? Superstitious and witch hunter are prerequisites, so in the course of all that hating on casters, they should have grown attuned to the presence of magic.
I would chalk it up to a sixth sense or some such.
Well yeah, but you're talking fluff explanations which means you're still in the realm of metagaming and player knowledge.
Mechanically, how does a barbarian distinguish spell effects?
Well yeah, but you're talking fluff explanations which means you're still in the realm of metagaming and player knowledge.
Mechanically, how does a barbarian distinguish spell effects?
Eh...? Metagame is the complete opposite of what you're saying it is. Metagame knowledge is any knowledge a PLAYER would have that the CHARACTER would not. In this case, the barbarian would either notice a spell effect through some sense or another (Fluff), but would not know that a player is having to roll a skill check to allow him to do so (Metagame).
But I see what you're actually asking for. You want the metagame information. I believe that a barbarian would have to make any number of checks to identify a spell effect. Perception, Sense Motive, Knowledge (arcana) (which is perfectly justifiable if you are building on the idea of a barbarian who literally smashes casters and their "products"), Spellcraft...
I basically sunder anything that doesn't look right or makes little practical sense.
You'd be amazed how often that works. Even if it isn't magic, you generally sunder something. And isn't smashing things really what the works is all about anyways?
Knowledge Arcane and or Spell craft checks. Use them to recognize that a spell is being cast and what that spell is, I know it is out of class skill for barbarians. Otherwise they must use some sort of Spell from another caster. Like AM BARBARIAN said. That seems to be about it.
EDIT: Kinda like how a paladin at low levels can not determine what is evil, however he has smite evil. So the player must make guesses as to when to use his smite or not.
Now for the paladin there is no other option, no skill, things that are below 5 HD and do not have Evil Aura (Priest, Outsiders, Anti-paladins) just do not ping.
Well yeah, but you're talking fluff explanations which means you're still in the realm of metagaming and player knowledge.
Mechanically, how does a barbarian distinguish spell effects?
Eh...? Metagame is the complete opposite of what you're saying it is. Metagame knowledge is any knowledge a PLAYER would have that the CHARACTER would not. In this case, the barbarian would either notice a spell effect through some sense or another (Fluff), but would not know that a player is having to roll a skill check to allow him to do so (Metagame).
But I see what you're actually asking for. You want the metagame information. I believe that a barbarian would have to make any number of checks to identify a spell effect. Perception, Sense Motive, Knowledge (arcana) (which is perfectly justifiable if you are building on the idea of a barbarian who literally smashes casters and their "products"), Spellcraft...
Funny that you would say that I have metagaming wrong but then "correct" me by defining it in exactly the way that I was using it.
I, as a player, recognize the effects of tons of spells from play experience, but the barbarian that I'm hypothetically playing does not without some sort of mechanic. That mechanic is what I'm looking for, and outside buffs (or dipping into oracle) seems to be it.
Also, the sense that you propose that a barb might notice a spell with isn't fluff since perceiving things around you is handled by mechanics. Please don't bother correcting people unless you are yourself correct, thanks.
I, as a player, recognize the effects of tons of spells from play experience, but the barbarian that I'm hypothetically playing does not without some sort of mechanic. That mechanic is what I'm looking for, and outside buffs (or dipping into oracle) seems to be it.
Did you miss the part where I listed at least 4 skills that would work for such a situation? If a DM or player calls for any of those checks, that is beyond the 4th wall and thus metagame information. The fluff is the description of that check, such as "Okay, with your Knowledge (arcana) check, you remember seeing a witch from your tribe perform these gestures. This commoner may be a wizard because you recognize that he is casting a spell." Or "Your Sense Motive check is high enough for you to realize that [your Ranger friend] is under the effects of some form of sorcery."
Also, the sense that you propose that a barb might notice a spell with isn't fluff since perceiving things around you is handled by mechanics. Please don't bother correcting people unless you are yourself correct, thanks.
That suggestion was in my first post, before I decoded your poorly worded question. My second post provided a more appropriate suggestion, which you seem to have ignored. I recommend a more congenial attitude towards people attempting to provide answers to your questions.
I... do not think you need knowledge arcana or spellcraft to determine someone is casting a spell. You would need it to determine exactly what spell, but not spellcasting in general.
To put it in context, I have never fired a gun. But I sure do know what one sounds like. I couldn't tell you what model of gun someone was holding, but I could determine it was a pistol, shotgun, or rifle at a glance. And I don't have anything that would qualify as "knowledge firearms."
Magic is not uncommon in PF. Every character has seen some kind of spell casting. A completely mundane barbarian can likewise see someone moving their arms and saying weird words and make the assumption that guy is casting a spell. If the guy is chanting for a long span of time, the barbarian can reasonably assume it's a big spell, something that might summon. He's not going to know what the guy is actually casting, but perception should cue any spell with somatic and verbal components as casting.
That's a big point for taking still and silent spells- so you use magic subtly.
That said, the barb can put some ranks in spellcraft and actually identify the spells as they are cast, and decide which to smash.
1. Spell sunder ignores miss chance and concealment, so you can hit them.
2. To my reading, yes. As for which type, the creature itself is summoned which is the active spell going.
3. The communal/ mass spells are casted once and affect the area or selected targets as mentioned. You sunder the one spell, and it removes it entirely.
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Spell Sunder (Su): Once per rage, the barbarian can attempt to sunder an ongoing spell effect by succeeding at a combat maneuver check. For any effect other than one on a creature, the barbarian must make her combat maneuver check against a CMD of 15 plus the effect's caster level. To sunder an effect on a creature, the barbarian must succeed at a normal sunder combat maneuver against the creature's CMD + 5, ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability. If successful, the barbarian suppresses the effect for 1 round, or 2 rounds if she exceeded the CMD by 5 to 9. If she exceeds the CMD by 10 or more, the effect is dispelled. A barbarian must have the witch hunter rage power and be at least 6th level before selecting this rage power.
1. If the effect is on a creature the spell sunder attempt can be tried "ignoring any miss chance caused by a spell or spell-like ability" (so if you try to sunder a spell upon an naturally invisible fey you still suffer from miss chance).
No idea of what would happen if the target is an invisible spell effect.2.Tricky. It isn't exactly a spell upon a creature, but it isn't a spell with a defined area of effect.
What he will be targeting? Where?
Sunder is a melee combat maneuver. So to sunder a spell you need to be in contact with the spell or its area of effect, but a summoning spell doesn't have a area of effect.
So when targeting a summoned creature he could sunder that creature only, not the whole spell (if the spell summoned only 1 creature it make no difference, but it the caster summoned 3 different creatures of the same type with one casting the barbarian would send back only one).
3. Communal or mass spell: same reasoning than above. You are targeting 1 creature with your sunder attempt, you will sunder the effect only upon that creature, not the whole spell.
Same thing for spell like haste, that target X creatures. You sunder the spell only upon a creature with each attempt.
4. Once you have cast Animate dead the undead is a creature, not something under the effect of a spell. Trying to sunder the spell will do nothing.
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As I see it, spell sunder is a sunder maneuver attempt, so you need to target something with your maneuver and be in range of it.
It can be the area of effect of a spell, the target of a spell or a physical manifestation of a spell but you can't try to sunder "something" to affect a whole spell that affect multiple targets at variable distance.
Spell sunder has the advantage that it can suppress or dispel effect that are immune to dispel magic, but in other instances it is less efficient that a well placed grater dispel.
Yup, if the curse is a spell effect, it can be suppressed, and it can be dispelled with a good enough roll so long as the effect is dispellable. Some spell effect curses (such as bestow curse) aren't subject to being dispelled, though, so you'd have to find another route for permanently dealing with those.
So I change my "Yup" to "Maybe".
Oh, AM BARBARIAN. How I miss your posts.
Ha! I don't see why a buddy couldn't simply render themselves helpless to your attack, dropping their Dexterity to zero and granting a +4 bonus to the sunder attempt. Strange that the caster level doesn't seem to enter into the mix.
Ha! I don't see why a buddy couldn't simply render themselves helpless to your attack, dropping their Dexterity to zero and granting a +4 bonus to the sunder attempt. Strange that the caster level doesn't seem to enter into the mix.
Barbarian: Whoa! hold on there friend you have something on you.
Ally: wha? what is it?
Barbarian: Something quite vile, hold still while I get it off, <raises great axe>
Ally: eep!
I suppose many of the spells that a Barbarian would want to slap an ally for involve the ally turning against the party. You're not going to voluntarily render yourself helpless if you're under the power of a suggestion.