I want to try and play an Evil Character if I can in this campaign I'm in, but the party has a Paladin who'd likely use Detect Evil on me as soon as they spot me.
I know I could go Belkar and carry a lead sheet around, but I was thinking something a little less suspicious.
Right now the party is level 4. I may or may not be able to play this character until a higher level, but for the sake of this thread, lets assume level 4 options here.
I was thinking about a Wizard, but if some other class is just plain excellent at hiding his evil from an alignment detection - while being similar to the Wizard- then awesome.
I know that other classes get Undetectable Alignment, which is pretty cool, but the Wizard does not.
What else can I do here?
I want to try and play an Evil Character if I can in this campaign I'm in, but the party has a Paladin who'd likely use Detect Evil on me as soon as they spot me.
I know I could go Belkar and carry a lead sheet around, but I was thinking something a little less suspicious.
Right now the party is level 4. I may or may not be able to play this character until a higher level, but for the sake of this thread, lets assume level 4 options here.
I was thinking about a Wizard, but if some other class is just plain excellent at hiding his evil from an alignment detection - while being similar to the Wizard- then awesome.
I know that other classes get Undetectable Alignment, which is pretty cool, but the Wizard does not.
What else can I do here?
You can get a ring of UA if im not mistaken. i might be making that up. basically tell your gm and no one else my guess is if the paladin isn't looking for it he probably won't find it .
You can get a ring of UA if im not mistaken. i might be making that up. basically tell your gm and no one else my guess is if the paladin isn't looking for it he probably won't find it .
Hmmm... except is that in a 4th level character's budget?
Simply roleplaying it? To me a LE and a LG can get along to some extent.Remember that LE is essentially a leader (tyrant) and as such he tend to be protective of people he needs to command,and he keeps his words. NE and CE will surely need some means of hiding their alignment, but i don't think a LE will.
He will detect evil on you when he sees you, nothing will register because your not 5HD, and unless you give him obvious cause to check again your golden.
as long as you are not a cleric or inquisitor or any other class with the Aura feature.
You can get a ring of UA if im not mistaken. i might be making that up. basically tell your gm and no one else my guess is if the paladin isn't looking for it he probably won't find it .Hmmm... except is that in a 4th level character's budget?
No. A ring of mind shielding costs 8,000 gp, while WBL suggests a 4th-level character should have gear worth 6,000 gp. Since WBL also suggests characters shouldn't put more than 25% of their wealth into a single item, you would normally not have access to such a ring until 8th level.
as long as you are not a cleric or inquisitor or any other class with the Aura feature.He will detect evil on you when he sees you, nothing will register because your not 5HD, and unless you give him obvious cause to check again your golden.
Or a Tiefling or other Outsider.
Have you talked to the DM and paladin player yet?+1
You need to do this. In some games, if the paladin learns your alignment he can no longer associate with you (per the Associates entry in the paladin class), which means either one of you has to leave the party or he has to give up his class. Communicating with the DM and player before this happens is a good idea.
Is it critical you play this character RIGHT NOW? Or can it be shelved for a later date? This character is joining an established party, he should conform to the established social conventions of the group.
Why do you need to be Lawful Evil? What specifically do you need that isn't open to a Lawful Neutral character?
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Why do you need to be Lawful Evil? What specifically do you need that isn't open to a Lawful Neutral character?
This.
I have been in some games where others decided it was "fun" to have their characters threaten murder, torture, etc. right in front of the paladin because it was in character. And that was a good-aligned character. It basically stopped gameplay while everyone had to talk about what to do next, why this had happened and more. It was not a moment greeted with cheers and high-fives.
Ask yourself what good can come of this and how this will this make the game more fun for you and your friends?
RPGs are a group activity, so everyone should have fun and be comfortable with the game. There are some topics and activities that are not welcome in certain groups. Most of those actions are evil. Do you really want to drop something like that in everyone else's lap in the middle of the game?
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Have you talked to the DM and paladin player yet?
TOZ showing off his high wisdom score.
It's not a case of "getting away with it." It's a case of "making it work." The first ignores the wishes of the paladin player and is confrontational. The second is collaborative and inclusive.
Or in other words, the first is going to lead to PvP and potential bad feeling and the second will lead to some good RP.
Also, keep in mind from an RP perspective, what are the laws and conventions in the society of your campaign about use of divination spells. I would argue that in an advanced and civilized society with magic it would be illegal to use divination on anyone without cause.
I think that there could be an interesting dynamic between the paladin and a LE party member if the LE character were to "out-lawful" the paladin to some extent. Every time that the paladin makes an RP choice of emphasizing the good part of their alignment over the lawful, call them out for failing in their oath to uphold law.
I think that this could be interesting in the end, if it is able to go for a while without the paladin (or the LE character) going homicidal on the other.
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Don't play an evil character since there is a paladin.
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You are playing a character with a high Int and HALF of the alignment the Pally has.
So act intelligently.
Over-emphasise the honourable, lawful and 'keeps-his-word' part of the LE alignment. Tear into the forces of darkness with a vengeance when they threaten chaos or wanton destruction. You oppose such wasteful evil tropes anyway. Avoid taking actions which point to your dark little heart and always conduct your evil out of sight of the Paladin.
Wear bright colours and be friendly with everyone! You do NOT have to brood, cackle, threaten to enslave the world or do anything else 'typical' of your alignment. You can just harbour such delightful thoughts.
You can be the future Emperor Claudius - waiting for a future time to rise to greatness and dispose of your opponents - rationalising that association with the Paladin will give your character a certain 'cache' with the 'great and the good',taking advantage of his reflected glory and reputation and making everyone think you are 'harmless'.
It will make your eventual tyrannically evil plans all the easier to implement as you will be tied with great deeds of good, bright and shiny friends and everyone will find it hard to believe you could be associated with such terrible deeds.
Being a Pally's mate is a great way to obfuscate your rise to evil domination!
Play it that way - and tell the GM your rationalisation - so he realises the self-discipline you show when doing distasteful acts of 'good' is all a means to an end and he doesn't penalise your alignment choice because of 'uncharacteristic' behaviour.
Intelligent evil is sooooo much more fun.
On the mechanical side - get in touch with the local Cult of Asmodeus or something of that nature and explain your plans. Tell them you need their help and by walking behind the Paladin you will be able to ride on his coat-tails to wide acclaim - making you effectively a 'mole' within the forces of fluffiness....
.... they will be falling over themselves to hide your alignment for you!
Also, keep in mind from an RP perspective, what are the laws and conventions in the society of your campaign about use of divination spells. I would argue that in an advanced and civilized society with magic it would be illegal to use divination on anyone without cause.
You do need to know how the setting and the country you are in feels about such spells. Rarely do settings prosecute every spell cast because it is difficult to prove without witnesses. Also, most RPG societies gives Paladins a pass on that because it is a gift DIRECTLY FROM GOD.
People tend to forget that in some of the games I play in. The gods aren't distant or made up (unless your setting decides those facts are true). In the standard fantasy world, there is proof that the gods exist in the form of clerics, paladins, angels, holy water, etc. Think about how much people being in the divine in the real world when the ministers cannot perform miracles in front of them or heal with a touch. Then imagine how much that would change them.
You do need to know how the setting and the country you are in feels about such spells. Rarely do settings prosecute every spell cast because it is difficult to prove without witnesses. Also, most RPG societies gives Paladins a pass on that because it is a gift DIRECTLY FROM GOD.
I would argue that even paladins would be prohibited from Detect Eviling everyone in sight in most civilized society, even though they are conduits for the divine.
In a typical faux-medieval nation I imagine that at least some of the nobles/rulers are evil aligned and high enough level to light up a detect spell, even if the nation overall is neutral or even good. The last thing that such rulers would want is paladins checking the alignment of everything that moves. Even though paladins are champions of law and justice, there are times, especially among nobility, when I am sure that the stereotypical paladin behavior would not go over well at all.
On the note of there not being witnesses, I have always assumed that it is completely obvious when someone is detecting evil, magic, etc.
Have you talked to the DM and paladin player yet?
+3
Been there, done that. If you don't ask, odds are it won't end well.
KaptainK; why do you want to play an evil character when you know there's a paladin in the group?
people sometimes forget that evil does not always mean "kill the peasants and eat the babies." lawful evil could be the lawful extremist that considers himself something like judge dredd. "i find you guilty and the punishment is termination" instead of a full trial. the lawful good pally could also play a similar role, depending on the deity worshiped. personally i would allow it and make the players role play it out.
having an issue in a game i am playing, had a cleric of zon-kuthon channel negative energy and hurt my chaotic evil character. i gave her the grace of a warning, but next time......
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lawful evil could be the lawful extremist that considers himself something like judge dredd. "i find you guilty and the punishment is termination" instead of a full trial.
I'm... not entirely sure how you get LE from Judge Dredd. Trials may be as evil as the system that spawned them, and in the case of Judge Dredd, it's not only lawful, but also good.
I'd suggest come up with the char, then choose the alignment to fit the concept and outlook. Don't build them as 'evil' out of the box and work from that.
Alignments have 2 sides, and within those alignments there are scales and degrees of gray. Just because you are evil, doesn't mean you kick puppies. I played a 3.5 assassin (back when they had UA as a spell... hell, back when they had spells). Talked to the GM about it before playing and he didn't have a problem after I laid the char out to him... as long as the rest of the party accepted it.
She was VERY VERY ends focused (and big picture) and her moral compass was generally so messed up she'd get lost in a 1 room cottage. I could go into a large scale analysis of her, but essentially, she didn't feel remorse, sadness, or regret over... pretty much anything really. Compounding that was a belief if you committed to doing something, you might as well go all the way. In this instance our job WAS actually saving the world, so it's hard not to justify going all the way there, but... You get what I mean, anyway. If butchering a family of 5 would save the world, her reaction wouldn't be one of horror or remorse and torn angst over cruel fates and killing innocents in the name of the greater good.
It would be "There is a family of 8 down the road. What do we get for that?"
That dumps her fair and square in evil land to me.
At the same time though, she had an ironclad sense of honor. Not one of these 'Oh, but the LETTER of my oath said I couldn't HURT you... this will be quite painless...' no... an actual, real, honest to goodness sense of honor. You earn her trust, and gain her respect and she'd move heaven and earth in the name of that. She gives you a promise not to turn on you, and she won't. Break your word to her though and all bets are off. She'll hunt you down and make you wish you were never born.`
Once they worked out exactly how messed up she was, she had to have a couple of very tight rules put around her, which she kept in the name of her honor. Then it was happy families until she slipped her leash (which did happen a few times).
We had a pally wannabe with detect evil, and used it on me multiple times. Sometimes I detected evil. Others not. That, combined with good diplomacy ranks (and a genuine belief that she herself wasn't evil) ended up being a running gag between myself and the pally. On a more serious side though, lots of conversations about the nature of evil and what is and isn't evil to them. Most of them, she was trying to fix what she viewed as his naive outlook on the world and that sometimes, you need to do distasteful things. That the phrase 'acceptable losses' does exist, and it is necessary, and if the family of 8 gives you saving this world from this crisis and the next one, it's probably worth finding out what a whole village is worth....
Ahem.... You know... given that if the world ends, the village is dead anyway.
So... questions to ask yourself....
1) Is the pally a "Smite first, Second, Third, burn the remains and put out the fire with holy water" kinda guy, or is there Redeemer in there too?
2) To what level do you want to be evil? Lower case 'evil'? Capital 'E'vil? All caps EVIL? "EEEVAAAHLLL!!!" rank of evil?
3) What do you hope to gain by playing an evil char with a pally in the party? Any traditionally 'Evil' options, he's going to step in on (or should or risk his pally status)
4) Forget the pally, what is the rest of the party going to react with if you do (insert appropriate level of evil act here)? The pally may be able to sniff you out, but if your party cleric is interested in destroying crime, and you want to start your own thieves guild... may not work too well.
5) Is this a char concept that would be better exploring when the pally is out of the picture? Given your still looking at concept and class, I'm GUESSING it hasn't been fleshed out too much.
jeuce wrote
lawful evil could be the lawful extremist that considers himself something like judge dredd. "i find you guilty and the punishment is termination" instead of a full trial.I'm... not entirely sure how you get LE from Judge Dredd. Trials may be as evil as the system that spawned them, and in the case of Judge Dredd, it's not only lawful, but also good.
I feel like Judge Dredd is Lawful Neutral. He's all about the law regardless of the intention of it. Good or Evil has no bearing as far as what's written down on paper.
However, as for the Lawful evil/good debate I agree with Caliburn101. Your character may be evil, but your intentions would still have to follow a lawful format. In some way the Paladin may even respect that. However, the way you go about it as blatantly evil. So you'll have to be more subtle about it. But the best advice any of us can give you is "talk to your GM/other players". There's nothing worse than rolling an evil character and the Paladin player saying "I attack him on sight. It's what my character would do."
TOZ showing off his high wisdom score.*looks at character sheet* Er, natural 20 on the die?
Yep. It just goes to show that even someone with a Wisdom score of 8 can get a lucky roll sometimes. ~grins~ Hey TOZ, tell the wife that I said hello and I hope that things are going well for the two of you!
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Yep. It just goes to show that even someone with a Wisdom score of 8 can get a lucky roll sometimes. ~grins~ Hey TOZ, tell the wife that I said hello and I hope that things are going well for the two of you!
HE LIVES! I thought you had gone to the dragon graveyard or something.
I shall pass it along.
OTOH, Maybe there is a good reason why a LG Paladin is hanging around an evil being. Just a thought.
Also, just be forewarned that the Paladin has every right to cut your character in two if you do end up playing Stupid Evil or just straight Evil Evil. YOU, not the Paladin have to conform to the group and him. Get your story straight, talk to the player of the Paladin AND the GM. Get a valid reason for you both to be together and STICK TO IT!!!
Yep. It just goes to show that even someone with a Wisdom score of 8 can get a lucky roll sometimes. ~grins~ Hey TOZ, tell the wife that I said hello and I hope that things are going well for the two of you!HE LIVES! I thought you had gone to the dragon graveyard or something.
I shall pass it along.
~shrugs~ Too much BS on the Paizo forumns lately. My sanity is already low so I need to protect what is left. ~grins~ Plus I have been busy in RL and not wanting the constant drain of keeping up with everything here at Paizo.
Awesome stuff
That sounds like it was a kick ass game that you were in.
I played a character that shifted from CN to NE over 6 levels right under the paladin's nose. He started out as a rogue with a chip on his shoulder, and becasue of an awesome DM, had opportunity to foster that. He ended up becoming a priest of the god of assassins in his world.
When they went adventuring, he did his part and pulled his weight, left all the lofty decisions to the Paladin. When back home, he fostered his contacts and grew the underground church. The one time the paladin suspected something, he hadn't quite crossed from N to NE yet, and thought nothing of it. AS thing progressed he (more the player than the paladin) tried to catch my character at 'things evil' and called an inquisition. He was arrested and brought before a priest and paladin of the party paladin's faith, and grilled under a zone of truth spell.
He passed every saving throw, and convinved them the paladin was crazy.
The paladin was chastised for wasting the church's time, and ordered to 'take a vacation'.
Granted, this did cause some party strife, but the paladin was the only good character, most others being N or CN. The DM favored the Rp over the worry of conflict, and it worked out well.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but I did not see it. You could always just play the infiltrator(inquisitor). He gets an ability that lets him be any alignment each time he preps spells. I've got a bladebound magus playing one and it is going to be a blast getting to have his sword react to the constant shift.
It seems to be that a majority of PCs on the evil end of the spectrum are played like idiotic cartoon and/or silent movie villains.
I know from experience that if you're not playing a talking wargame with a bunch of tools, that you can play an intelligent evil character and get away with it for as long as you choose. I played an evil cleric in a group with a paladin and a good cleric for over a year, and only stopped because I moved out of the area.
It is not hard to get away with playing a NE character in a group of good characters. It is extremely easy to get away with playing a LE character in a group of good characters.
The way you circumvent the alignment detection is _don't give them a reason to do it to you_. Act like a nice guy when you're around them. Either commit a few pious acts in their presence, or pay someone to say you did something nice off camera, or both. My cleric (who said in public he was a cleric of some good god or another) had a habit of taking in the street children of every other town to begin their walks down the righteous path, and gosh darn it, each and every one of them loved it so much they kept "taking off in the night for the capitol city" after a couple weeks to join the biggest church of that god.
You can play anyone from the shrewd manipulator LE type to the screw everyone but me NE type if you exercise a bit of intelligence. Lying is your friend.
I feel like Judge Dredd is Lawful Neutral. He's all about the law regardless of the intention of it. Good or Evil has no bearing as far as what's written down on paper.
i did not point out that judge dredd was evil, i stated that the character can be played like a judge dredd i.e. judge jury and executioner and use the law as an excuse/reason to kill. again im not saying that judge dredd does that, it was a character idea using the judge as a template and adding a little character flair to the idea.
besides judge dredd is about the letter of the law not the intention.
lawful evil could be the lawful extremist that considers himself something like judge dredd. "i find you guilty and the punishment is termination" instead of a full trial.I'm... not entirely sure how you get LE from Judge Dredd. Trials may be as evil as the system that spawned them, and in the case of Judge Dredd, it's not only lawful, but also good.
Dredd is Lawful Neutral.
It doesn't matter whether you kill someone in a fit of block-rage or kill someone because they are a mass-murderer.
He will still put you in the slammer for the maximum time for murder - the morality of it is irrelevant.
It seems to be that a majority of PCs on the evil end of the spectrum are played like idiotic cartoon and/or silent movie villains.
I know from experience that if you're not playing a talking wargame with a bunch of tools, that you can play an intelligent evil character and get away with it for as long as you choose. I played an evil cleric in a group with a paladin and a good cleric for over a year, and only stopped because I moved out of the area.
It is not hard to get away with playing a NE character in a group of good characters. It is extremely easy to get away with playing a LE character in a group of good characters.
The way you circumvent the alignment detection is _don't give them a reason to do it to you_. Act like a nice guy when you're around them. Either commit a few pious acts in their presence, or pay someone to say you did something nice off camera, or both. My cleric (who said in public he was a cleric of some good god or another) had a habit of taking in the street children of every other town to begin their walks down the righteous path, and gosh darn it, each and every one of them loved it so much they kept "taking off in the night for the capitol city" after a couple weeks to join the biggest church of that god.
You can play anyone from the shrewd manipulator LE type to the screw everyone but me NE type if you exercise a bit of intelligence. Lying is your friend.
I think lying to other players really pisses me off. Also Do you want other players to roll sense motive checks against you if they are the max sense motive and roll it for everything type. Agree on judge dredd alignment.
There is
"My PC is lying to your PC"
and there is
"Me, the player, am lying to you, the player".
They are very different things.
If you bring your character to the table and talk to the group about it so everyone knows what is up and is willing to RP it accordingly then there is nothing "wrong' with your PC lying to the rest of them.
Just be advised that if and when you screw up, your head is likely to be on the chopping block. It can make for fun RP though.
If you come to the table and have the wrong alignment written on your sheet( so no one can peek and see you are evil) and all that jazz and secretly harbor beign evil from the group and all that..
well.. D&D is about cooperation and having fun *for the group*.
While there is often some necessity for "subterfuge" when the DM has mind controlled a player or something like that, it is otherwise- to me at least- something that is forbidden.
Your character is joining the group. Conform to the group.
Make someone who works with the group not against it or in conflict with it.
"How do I make a LE character work in a party with a paladin in it".
You don't.
You make a different character and tell the DM and players that when the next campaign rolls around, you'd really enjoy being able to play an evil character...
-S
I think party conflict makes for good roleplaying. Besides, in my opinion, actions really dictate alignment. So if the Paladin never caught your character in an evil act, and you never gave him reason to suspect you were committing evil acts, then there should not be too many issues. Even if he detects that you are evil, I think it would be poor roleplaying on his part to simply attack your character without cause. Be as lawful as you can be, just don't get caught being evil by the Paladin. You might even convince him that your character can be redeemed...
Be the Paladin's sibling.
Blood is thicker than holy water.
As a wizard, get a bonded object (ring) then craft yourself a ring of mind shielding asap. Don't give the paladin a reason to scan you until then.
I think lying to other players really pisses me off. Also Do you want other players to roll sense motive checks against you if they are the max sense motive and roll it for everything type. Agree on judge dredd alignment.
Let me clarify:
Lying as a roleplaying tool is great _provided everyone at the table is on the same page_. I am not condoning being one of those PCs that steals everything from the other players and is constantly lying and undermining the goals of the group dynamic. If you have said up front that you're going to play a Rat Bastard and it's all in good fun, as long as everyone at the table buys into it, there isn't a problem.I guess I should have been more precise with the language in my initial post. Lying to other PCs is just fine, provided you have discussed this with the players beforehand. I thought that was implied by the tone I took, but whatever.
What you're asking for won't work.
Your proposed character is either going to act evil in which case magical obscuring won't help or isn't going to act evil in which case you don't have any reason to play an evil character.
What is your character hoping to accomplish? What do you gain for the trouble in keeping company with a a paladin? If you want the option to betray or undermine your fellow PCs, then your actions will eventually lead to intra-party conflict. Be prepared to deal with the fallout. If you plan to focus your malicious acts on NPCs, create motivations that align with the group's motivations. If the paladin does turn on you, give the PCs strong reasons to come to your aid (friendship, etc). Concealing your alignment can be helpful but it's not going to shield you from the consequences of your actions.
I thought that was implied by the tone I took, but whatever.
With Marry Amusement: But taepodong, this is the Interent. We all sound like Elcor here. So unless want to prefice your post, or use Emoticons, then you are at the mercy of other peoples tone.
Example... said another way
Dripping Sarcasm: But taepodong, this is the Interent. We all sound like Elcor here. So unless want to prefice your post, or use Emoticons, then you are at the mercy of other peoples tone.
In seriousness, I agree with you. The only way to do this kind of thing at all right is to work it out in advance with the both the GM and the Paladin/affected players. Trying to go behind everyones back and "hide" it is just being a douchebag, especially if the party is already established.
I am more just anti lying in general and think all lying is evil. I may want to call this trutful stupid.
On second thought this gives me a really lawful neutral inquistor idea the inquisitor of truth that hunts liars down using all legal options.
From the look of it the OP hasn't chimed in since shortly after his initial post. My question is what are you trying to accomplish/ get away with by playing an evil character.