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Advanced Race Guide Playtest

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Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

This forum is here for you to post all of your ideas and feedback concerning the Race Creation rules which can be found here. Make sure to read the entire document before posting and please take a look through existing threads to see if your issue has already been addressed before starting another thread. Also note that there is a sticky thread for you to post all of your sample races built using these rules. Please use it to post up sample races only. If you want to critique a sample, start a new thread with that race's name as the title. This messageboard will be open for two weeks, until Tuesday, October 17th.

Thanks for participating in this thread. The design team looks forward to your feedback.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer


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Link has been fixified.


... Its like their toying with us! Q.Q


Can we toss in some ideas of abilities to add for the official book, with a full description of it's bonuses etc.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

Azure_Zero wrote:
Can we toss in some ideas of abilities to add for the official book, with a full description of it's bonuses etc.

Yes you can.. I will start a new thread for that.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing


Thank you

As my brain is full of ideas
(and analysing the options and weighing them.)


Now, I'm not very good at eyeballing things like balance, so don't expect any of that from me.

The first thing that jumps out at me is that all of the options seem to have been made by chopping up the existing races and working out the values of their abilities. And while I think that's a good starting point and the presented array is quite serviceable, it leaves out some relatively basic features because they can't be found in said races. For example: extra limbs. Looking at the eidolon evolutions would be a good place to start if you're going to improve the range of selections.

Second, at lot of the prerequisites seem arbitrary. There's nothing distinctively elven about Elven Magic, aside from the fact that Pathfinder elves have it. I'd suggest making things a little more generic, and assume that people will be using this for their homebrew settings (I know I will).

In short, it isn't quite as flexible as I had hoped, but it's still functional and I'm pleased with the product as a whole.

Dark Archive

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Xenophile wrote:
The first thing that jumps out at me is that all of the options seem to have been made by chopping up the existing races and working out the values of their abilities.

The points values seem to have been price-fixed backwards to make the core races (elf, dwarf, gnome, halfling, half-elf, half-orc, human) all precisely equal 10 points, and that, IMO, led to more than one totally inappropriate valuations.

The 1 RP for Hardy compared to the half-orcs 2 RP for Skill Bonus (intimidate) is just one example of how, IMO, the cart was put before the horse, in this case, with the costs being assigned less on their value, than to fit a preconceived assumption that all core races must be exactly equal on some arbitrary standard of balance.

If a dwarf ends up worth 13 RP and a half-orc or human ends up worth 9, I don't think it would be the end of the world, and it would be, IMO, better than trying to arbitrarily fix the values and ending up with some unbalanced options if those artificially mispriced options end up being given to a newly created race.

Quote:
Second, at lot of the prerequisites seem arbitrary. There's nothing distinctively elven about Elven Magic, aside from the fact that Pathfinder elves have it. I'd suggest making things a little more generic, and assume that people will be using this for their homebrew settings (I know I will).

Total agreement here.

I'm all for divorcing any prerequisite that isn't balance-based from the equation and leaving it up to the GM to determine flavor prereqs/restrictions for themselves.


Set wrote:
Xenophile wrote:
Quote:
Second, at lot of the prerequisites seem arbitrary. There's nothing distinctively elven about Elven Magic, aside from the fact that Pathfinder elves have it. I'd suggest making things a little more generic, and assume that people will be using this for their homebrew settings (I know I will).

Total agreement here.

I'm all for divorcing any prerequisite that isn't balance-based from the equation and leaving it up to the GM to determine flavor prereqs/restrictions for themselves.

Yes. Why can only Fey be tiny?

Silver Crusade

Another vote here for divorcing a lot of stuff from pre-reqs bound to creature or racial subtypes.

I can see elemental vulnerabilities being fitting to plenty of creatures that aren't outsiders for one example.


Mikaze wrote:

Another vote here for divorcing a lot of stuff from pre-reqs bound to creature or racial subtypes.

I can see elemental vulnerabilities being fitting to plenty of creatures that aren't outsiders for one example.

Or to non-standard creatures.


Another vote here for racial divorce.


Peanuts wrote:
Set wrote:
Xenophile wrote:
Quote:
Second, at lot of the prerequisites seem arbitrary. There's nothing distinctively elven about Elven Magic, aside from the fact that Pathfinder elves have it. I'd suggest making things a little more generic, and assume that people will be using this for their homebrew settings (I know I will).

Total agreement here.

I'm all for divorcing any prerequisite that isn't balance-based from the equation and leaving it up to the GM to determine flavor prereqs/restrictions for themselves.

Yes. Why can only Fey be tiny?

This. Plants, constructs, and outsiders can't be tiny? What's up with that?


Question about copyright. How do we list a race construction idea on the other forum that is inspired from a work of fiction? Is there a special way of giving cerdit rather than just saying, "Hey, this idea is inspired by auithor X!"
Thanks,
Jeff...


I can imagine some racial features making sense. Gnomes, due to their pseudo-fey status, might have some link to magic other races lack. As for elves... well, they did spend a lot of time Elsewhere, and perhaps they have some weird thing in Kyonin they are tapping into.

Let's put it this way: there should be a good reason why race X gets something and not race Y.


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I have only had time to give this a fast scan, but I can see some issue.

1: The core races are not all balanced, the assumption was they all are (10), they are not. Which leads us to

2: The numbers are off (skilled the same cost as fly?Hardy cheaper then lucky?) they are based off a false idea of balance so they are all off.

3: Langs cost points? at best I could see a 1/0/-1 cost

4: Why is there no 40' base speed?

5: why something is advanced or monster is vague and why they are broken into 3 category to start with I do not get.

6:Why limit some traits to subraces or type? Seems very limiting and a bit arbitrary and pointless. Why can only the elf type have elf like immunity for example?

Thats all I got right now, but I'll give it a good once over if I get time tonight.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
4: Why is there no 40' base speed?

Actually, it exists as an advanced ability (fast). It's curiously cheap, though - 1 RP compared to, say, 2 for something like lightbringer (you can't be dazzled by light, have higher CL for light spells and can have light as an at-will cantrip).


The Shaman wrote:
seekerofshadowlight wrote:
4: Why is there no 40' base speed?
Actually, it exists as an advanced ability (fast). It's curiously cheap, though - 1 RP compared to, say, 2 for something like lightbringer (you can't be dazzled by light, have higher CL for light spells and can have light as an at-will cantrip).

I found it, but why is it there? Why is it an ability and slow is not? Its not an ability it is a base speed.


Yeah I didn't like the racial requirenment for most of the things in there as well.

Silver Crusade

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Yeah, racial/type prereqs need to go for the most part. Unless it's something like "Photosynthetic Power" or something that absolutely could not be applied to someone's imagined race of another type, it needs to not be locked down.

A lot of the abilities spun out of existing ones really should have racially neutral names as well.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:
I found it, but why is it there? Why is it an ability and slow is not? Its not an ability it is a base speed.

Because it's a modifier, apparently. Personally, I'd expect base speed to be different for normal and small creatures, so goblins having a base speed of 30 feet is actually a bonus, rather than them being charged 8 RP for +4 to two skills.

BTW, I think "elven magic" would probably be "fey magic" unless there is a separete reason for elves to be magical in Golarion that I am not aware of.

Edit: one more thing stuck me as weird. Water child has racial prerequisites, gives +4 to swim checks, an OPTION to take aquan, and take 10 on swim checks, and costs 2 RP. Meanwhile, swim costs 1 RP, only requires normal move speed, and gives 30 feet swim speed and +8 to swim checks.


I'd like to see a better reason why Advanced and Monstrous racial abilities shouldn't be taken by standard races. I find it difficult to swallow that a standard movement ability such as a climb speed or a swim speed is any more powerful than the advanced movement ability that adds 10 feet to their base speed. A standard race can have a bite attack, but not claws? Really? I love the breakdown, and I'm already going through races I've built and set up for my personal games to see where they stack up. I'd just really like to see like an extra point cost for a standard race to gain an advanced races's abilities and such. Or even completely doing away with those divisions.

My 2 cents, of course.

Silver Crusade

It seems odd that plant creatures have a requirement to eat. Breathe, sure, but eat?

Scarab Sages

Throol wrote:
It seems odd that plant creatures have a requirement to eat. Breathe, sure, but eat?

I feed my plants. Yummy nitrogen phosphorous and potassium. Mine enjoy a nice 15-30-15 mix. Though the venus flytrap is on a stricty fly and gnat only diet.


Matthew Trent wrote:
Though the venus flytrap is on a strictly fly and gnat only diet.

Yay carnivorous plants. :D

Hmm...carnivorous plant race... *ponders*


Now I want a CLASS construction guide!!!


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gigz wrote:

I'd like to see a better reason why Advanced and Monstrous racial abilities shouldn't be taken by standard races. I find it difficult to swallow that a standard movement ability such as a climb speed or a swim speed is any more powerful than the advanced movement ability that adds 10 feet to their base speed. A standard race can have a bite attack, but not claws? Really? I love the breakdown, and I'm already going through races I've built and set up for my personal games to see where they stack up. I'd just really like to see like an extra point cost for a standard race to gain an advanced races's abilities and such. Or even completely doing away with those divisions.

My 2 cents, of course.

Wait, am I missing something here? What is the restriction here for making a race and what type of bonuses they have. Why can't a standard race have claws?

P.S.

Quickly looked over the rules again. So if you want claws your race has to have 20 RP, or at least treated as such?!?! Is that what is happening here?

This categorization is wired.

Grand Lodge

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+1 vote for uncoupling prerequisites from many items. Like "tiny" only going with "fey" for example.

+1 vote for changing or doing away with the restriction on certain abilities only if part of an advanced category.

I would also like to see Fly modified in some way such that paying for speed and maneuverability could be done independently.

Finally, I'm hoping that in the final version there will be an option to make non-tauric quadrapeds.

Jon Brazer Enterprises

Mikaze wrote:
Yeah, racial/type prereqs need to go for the most part. Unless it's something like "Photosynthetic Power" or something that absolutely could not be applied to someone's imagined race of another type, it needs to not be locked down.

I agree with this. For my own home game and my writing, I planned on ignoring standard/advanced/monstrous and racial prereqs.

In the Sample Race thread, I posted a half-ghost. I gave it an ability called a terrifying moan which I described as "reskinned terrifying croak". Granted Terrifying Croak has no prereq, but since it came from a frog race, it still had the name croak. I saw no reason to stick with that name even though the ability was otherwise identical.


Spell like abilities costing 3 in the Monster Race examples is wrong. Daylight is fun, but it isn't worth 3 points. Not even close. That is more of a flavor thing than mechanical thing. If it was a 3rd level Cleric or Paladin or Druid spell that gets a lot of use, maybe.

So the Aasimar is considered as a 13 point guy when it isn't. It is a fair 10 pointer.


SPCDRI wrote:

Spell like abilities costing 3 in the Monster Race examples is wrong. Daylight is fun, but it isn't worth 3 points. Not even close. That is more of a flavor thing than mechanical thing. If it was a 3rd level Cleric or Paladin or Druid spell that gets a lot of use, maybe.

So the Aasimar is considered as a 13 point guy when it isn't. It is a fair 10 pointer.

I think Daylight is too often underestimated. It has many uses beyond getting rid of magical darkness. Dealing with drow, and other light-sensitive creatures. Removing the tactical advantage of nighttime orc raiders.


My feedback :

1) As has been noted, a few of the prices are off due to an idea that the core races should be exactly 10 pts. That's both an arbitrary number, and unrealistic. I think the core races should be 10 to 15 points, and that should be the accepted range for player races. This allows the abilities to be priced off their value, not to balance the core races to equal value.

2) Not all skills are created equally. There should be tiers of skills. For example, climb and swim are not as useful as, say, perception. A +2 to Climb should not cost the same as a +2 to perception. Same with the Knowledge skills, the crafting skills, spellcraft, stealth, etc. I think the Profession Skills, Climb and Swim should be 1 RP per +2, same limit on how many times you can take it (up to 3 if I remember correctly).

3) Prerequisites need to be changed. The prerequisites need to be strictly based on type, not subtype (IE: Humanoid, not Humanoid (Human)). Then they need to be expanded some. Oh, and get rid of the pre-reqs on the ability score traits, humans should not be limited to being the only ones you can do a +2 on. Alternately, add in the ability to put a +2 into a single stat (by race) rather than any stat. IE: The entire race receives just a +2 to Dex for example. Or, a +2 to one of 2 stats, so a +2 to STR or CON. This gives flexibility and still allows humans to be the kings of floating stat bonus. As it is, you can't create a race that has only a +2 to DEX or +2 to CON. That's an oversight.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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General thoughts based on first review:

1. I agree with a lot of sentiments that the Advanced and Monstrous restrictions are... well, too restrictive. But if it seems too unbalancing to remove the Advanced and Monstrous restrictions entirely, why not make them cost double or triple for lesser-typed races, rather than make them unavailable?

For example, if you want Claws for a standard race, claws cost 4 instead of 2. If you want Powerful Charge for a standard race, it costs 6 for a standard race and 4 for an advanced one.

You could possibly do the same thing with prerequisites--double the cost rather than limit entirely to the prerequisite.

2. We need some more generic skill and feat abilities that we can adapt to various race concepts, following in the vein of Skill Bonus. We obviously have a lot of skill-based abilities taken from existing races, such as Stonecunning, but we need to genericize such things so we can apply them to broader concepts. For example, something like

Circumstantial Skill Bonus (1 RP): This ability gives you +2 to to a skill only under certain conditions, e.g., "+2 to Survival in one kind of terrain."

or

Artisan (1 rp): This gives you +2 to a single craft skill and appraise checks related to items that can be created with this craft skill.

Something like that. When I come up with more concrete ideas I will (hopefully) post them in the suggested monster abilities thread. But I'd rather see some abilities we can adapt ourselves to different concepts than have a million abilities that will still likely only apply to a limited number of concepts.

3. We need more weaknesses. Likewise if/when I come up with specific suggestions I will post them.


Well, I like this play test material for the most part. BUT, I really think you guys need to be more honest with the RP costs. They are shoehorned to "prove" that all of the racial choices in the core book are equal. We know they really aren't. Can we just accept that fact & redo the RP costs to be more internally consistent with each other? Specifically, the human traits costing 4RP. Come one, really? I see the half-elf skill focus feat costs 2 RP, buit the human bonus feat is 4. I see that getting a specific feat should be cheaper than a feat of the player's choice, but not double. I think 3 RP is enough. I think 3 RP is enough for the skill points too. I can't see it being as powerful as getting a 4th level spell like ability. I think you should get the points correctly consistent, then build your races & admit where certain races fall short, or over. The let GMs decide if they need to tweak one way or the other for their home games.


So the Drow Noble can't have deeper Darkness as a spell like ability, its a 3rd level spell. No spell like abiliies at all can be at will?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

One other thing--why do the movement abilities require normal speed?

I ask, because typically, based on "traditional" race builds--Medium=usually normal speed, Small=usually slow speed.

This means if you want to, say, build an (advanced) aquatic halfling with a swim speed, you need to up the halfling's speed to normal so it can qualify for the swim ability?

Could we perhaps instead allow the speeds at any base speed, but simply deduct 10 feet from the new movement type if the creature has slow speed?


How about 50% increase in price?

Claws would would cost 3 RP points for standards to take. Flying would cost 6 RP points for a standard race to have.

However I am more in-favor of having lesser versions, and having feats to upgrade them to a more functional versions.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

How about 50% increase in price?

Claws would would cost 3 RP points for standards to take. Flying would cost 6 RP points for a standard race to have.

However I am more in-favor of having lesser versions, and having feats to upgrade them to a more functional versions.

I would prefer the following :

Standard Race : 5 to 15 pts
Advanced Race : 16 to 30 pts
Monstrous Race : 31+ pts

Just limit the percentage of points that can be put into any one set of abilities. For example, like we do starting wealth, no more than 25% into any given item, so no more than 25% of the race's RP can be put into a given class of abilities (1 purchase minimum allowed). So, if we go with claws on a 10 pt race, then that's 4 pts from one category, which is more than 25%, but it's the only thing they can get from that ability group. So if the race ended up with 12 pts (which would have 25% in that one ability) it'd still be a standard race, and on par with a dwarf.

Then get rid of the prerequisites about advanced vs monstrous. I can absolutely see a small race with claws (feline for example, or nastier kobolds) but who are still 'standard' due to not having much else.

If an ability is too good for a 10 pt race to have, increase the cost. Don't make it exceptions to the rules, like you suggest (one of the best things they did was standardize attack damage by size category/type and primary vs secondary by type). There's already a way to increase the effectiveness if you want, it's called Imp Natural Attack. Just move it from the bestiary to the core rules with the book, so it's available in PFS.

Scarab Sages

+1 for dissociating abilities and races, unless you're going to include a big chunk of text for creating new race specific abilities. And I don't mean thirteen pages worth and half a dozen paragraphs talking about *estimating* values :p

Monstrous spellcasting is off. Daylight is NOT worth 3 points.

10 ft reach should cost 2 points.

Fast speed (40 ft) should be a base +1 like slow is a base -1.

And again, please don't restrain abilities by race. The whole point of the book is to mix and match abilities that were previously locked to a single race.


Mostly a mirror of what others have said:

Top priority should be removal of a lot of the pre-reqs... the idea is to give options, not take them away. I play with a group that loves extra material, but usually don't allow much deviation from the material (if a feat says it needs X pre-req, then it doesn't matter if it makes much sense or not, you have to have it), so leaving the pre-reqs on as they are would make me skip purchase.

2nd priority would be re balancing of some of the point costs, not all core races are equal.

Normally I wouldn't waste anyone's time suggesting something that others have said, but in this case it bears repeating, to show how many feel this way.


+1 to removal of prerequisites. Related to this, I think that the abilities should be divorced from flavor as much as possible as well, although this partially falls under the umbrella of there being too many restrictive prerequisites.

Also I am finding the division of standard, advanced and monstrous abilities to be somewhat contrived and arbitrary. While I understand that there are some things that character races are not "supposed" to have, such as DR, it still seems a little too restrictive as written.

Shadow Lodge

I have a question about the Climb racial ability as listed in the ARGP.

Advanced Race Guide Playtest:
"Climb (1 RP): Prerequisites: Normal speed trait; Benefit:
Members of this race have a climb speed of 20 ft., and
gain the +8 racial bonus on Climb checks that a climb
speed normally grants."

Almost every humanoid race or nearly humanoid race (monkeys, apes) that I've found have the same climb speed as their regular movement speed. It's the odder shaped ones (giant ants, behirs) that have the lesser speeds.
So, shouldn't the text in the ARGP read, "Members of this race have a climb speed equal to their normal movement speed, and gain the +8 racial bonus on Climb checks that a climb speed normally grants."?


I just want to point out 1 tiny thing...

Daylight (3rd level) 1/day 3 RP

Svirfneblin Magic 2 RP; +1 illusion dc, constant detection (3rd level spell, constantly on, effectively more then 1/day but in limited use), 1/day blindness/deafness 2nd level spell, 1/day blur, 1/day disguise self)

something about these might not be weighted correctly, i think it may have been touched on earlier.

Also yeah minorly obvious how stretched it was to balance core races, skilled (human) is rated the same as +2 int and so on

Grand Lodge

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Just wondering if there is any specific reason that the quadruped ability ability requires large size. I have an idea for a medium sized quadruped race, and find the large size restriction a little overbearing. especially since I wouldn't need the large size bonuses.

Liberty's Edge

To get a better estimate of points cost give increase prices across the board. I know 10 is a nice round number but so 100. You don't need to stick to a round number. Not all core races are going to add up to the same points. Don't be afraid to give things a price that don't end 0 or 5. Break the mold, give a points cost to different favored class options


I'll add +1 to allowing Fast for PCs. I possibly disagree with a few posters in that I agree that there needs to be the tiered approach for the powers, to prevent people from giving a PC nothing but Natural Armor, for instance. Congratulations: your race is boring, and you have a 28 AC at 1st level!

I do see that some of the values strike me as being under or over powered, and it's difficult sometimes to understand why something costs as much as it does. One thought is that you could make the scale higher. Let's say we double everything, so standard is 20, Advanced is 40, Monstrous is 60. Then the difference between values can be shifted slightly to give more of a sense of balance. Let's say 3 points for 'Fast', while 2 points for Claws, or whatever.

I can see the appeal of keeping the numbers low for ease's sake, however larger numbers offer more flexibility.

Shadow Lodge

I have had a good look through the abilities and see a number of problems, many of which have been highlighted above. In addition:

1. it is possible to buy some of the abilities as feats, Scent for example if you are a half-orc. This is considered "Advanced" and worth 4RP. Another such example is Nimble Attack, which grants Weapon Finess for 2RP but is also "Advanced". Also some abilities emulate class abilities, such as "Fast", another "Advanced" ability. If these abilities are easily available, why are they limited to "advanced" races?

2. Some abilities are substantially better than feats, ie Defensive Training Greater, which grants a +2 dodge bonus to AC. This is twice the bonus from Dodge, and only costs 3RP.

3. It seems that Skill enhancing bonuses generally work on a 1 for 1 basis with RP, hence Sneaky Rider is worth a massive 8RP. This grants +4 to Stealth and Ride checks. In comparison, Stalker, which grants Perception and Stealth as Class Skills is worth only 1RP. Potentially this could grant a +6 skill bonus if these skills were not class skills. However, generally skills seem a little over priced in comparison to some of the other abilities.

4. As mentioned above, the stat arrays seem a little limiting, unless you are an "advanced" race. Thus if I want a race with +2 dex and con, -2 str and cha. Its also not very clear. Perhaps a table might clear things up?

Over all I was really impressed with the concept and look forward to the finished book. I do however think the different abilities need to be properly costed, without the base cost of 10 in the back of the developers mind.

It is very easy to optimise a build, but this is meant to be a DM's tool, so that does not bother me, I'll be the one building the races. I'll have a play and post my races :)

Keep up the good work

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