I believe 99% of the people at those demonstartions are 20 something college students who are angry at the wrong friggin people, and the very people they should be angry with are benefitting from their anger.
My, my! The incongruity between fact and belief. It can affect even very smart people. There's "what's going on," then there's "what we want to believe about it."
The idea that these are just a bunch of spoiled hippies is one of those "that's what they WANT you to think" moments.
The movement is diverse and growing; all ages, all backgrounds, both parties.
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Yeah, how DARE I want my taxes to not go into the pockets of CEOs whose banks get big bailout packages! What am I thinking!
Exactly! And please remember which administration it was that threw gobs of money at the banks with no oversight at all.
If a person claims to be against wealth redistribution, he or she should equally be against redistributing it upward, as well as downwards.
Personal anecdote only: I don't know of ANY conservative that was FOR a bailout - under Bush's TARP or the Obama bailout.
I agree with you 100%.
I believe 99% of the people at those demonstartions are 20 something college students who are angry at the wrong friggin people, and the very people they should be angry with are benefitting from their anger.
-They're angry at the right people. You can try to blame washington, but why is washington the way it is? Because of all the money those people spend to break the system in their favor.
It might be wise to take the ows debate to another thread unless you we are specifically discussing cains response to it. The otherwise we will go off topic and lose the good amount of civility we have going on here.
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Exactly! And please remember which administration it was that threw gobs of money at the banks with no oversight at all.
Both of the last two -- Obama is nothing but a 3rd term of Bush II. Any differences between them are in appearance only. If it's a choice between Obama and Cain in 2012, I suspect we're stuck with a fourth term of Bush no matter which one wins.
I think if you could get obama and a democratic congress you'd see someone different.
People tend to exaggerate the amount of actual power that the president has.
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The only way the middle class shrinking is a problem is if they're falling into the category under them instead of the one above them.
Are they?
Absolutely. That data is pretty much everywhere, though I will go dig it up if you like.
I'd also like to ask, who gave the evil horribad banks bailouts? Bush, I'm sure. Only he did. Did Obama vote against it as a senator? Did he not also do so as president?
I don't think they care -- they just want it stopped. And I don't blame them.
I don't believe 99% of the population is lazy or had it coming.
I believe 99% of the people at those demonstartions are 20 something college students who are angry at the wrong friggin people, and the very people they should be angry with are benefitting from their anger.
Is your belief about the composition of the protesters based on data, or just your suspicions? And who are the right people to be angry with? Wall Street seems like a reasonable place to me. Contrary to popular belief, most of the very rich didn't get wealthy by starting a business...they either started that way, or got rich through the manipulation of financial instruments. The rags-to-riches, hard-working American dream has been dead for decades -- if it ever existed at all. It's a good story -- the data simply doesn't support the narrative. And these people have finally woken up to that fact.
It's not hard to see why they're protesting...it's hard to see why it has taken this long.
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Both of the last two -- Obama is nothing but a 3rd term of Bush II. Any differences between them are in appearance only. If it's a choice between Obama and Cain in 2012, I suspect we're stuck with a fourth term of Bush no matter which one wins.
You very well may be right. I would like to HOPE (and this is only hope) that Cain with a Repub House could make the economy stronger and put more people back to work.
NOTE: For anyone that hasn't read it, Herman Cain's new book is out this week and it was pretty darn good. Gives you a bit of insight into where he came from and where he wants to go. I can only (again) HOPE that he carries it into the White House.
Yup. Cause the whole world is black and white. Nooo shades of gray at all.
Either we let Muslims practice their religion freely (even though some horribly oppress their wives and daughters) or we don't.
Either we give all Americans due process before blowing them up or we don't.
Either Herman Cain hates all people without jobs or he doesn't.Funny how people want to see the world as black and white sometimes and other times shades of gray are just peachy-fine.
Only our views are nuanced -- it is your perception of them that is not.
Muslims should be allowed to practice their religion freely, BUT they should be help accountable for any crimes they commit -- just like everyone else.
All Americans are entitled to due process (I'd actually say all people), except when they pose an immediate threat to others.
I don't know who Herman Cain hates (or doesn't)...I just know what he said.
Muslims should be allowed to practice their religion freely. BUT they should be help accountable for any crimes that result, just as would any criminal.
So are you planning on indicting the Vatican or just skip to America's 77 million Catholics?
I think if you could get obama and a democratic congress you'd see someone different.
Gotta disagree here. Both parties are culpable.
People tend to exaggerate the amount of actual power that the president has.
This I completely agree with, especially in the context of fiscal policy.
So are you planning on indicting the Vatican or just skip to America's 77 million Catholics?
I'm sorry, I don't understand exactly what you mean. All Catholics are criminals?
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All Americans are entitled to due process (I'd actually say all people), except when they pose and immediate threat.
Good catch on the "people" thing. That was my flub, thank you.
It was actually aimed at Jeff who'd said "immediate threat" had nothing to do with killing al-Alaki. (spelling is off I think, but I'm lazy and don't want to look up the correct one... :) )I don't know who Herman Cain hates or doesn't...I just know what he said.
Fair enough. And sometimes snippets and sound bites don't carry the whole story unfortunately. That was all I meant to say.
um, correct me if I'm wrong but we had just that when Obama increased the bailouts?
Sort of.
First Obama couldn't pass anything in the senate because he couldn't break the filibuster, the senate effectively requires 60 votes to pass anything.
Secondly the bailout came in halves. Once you're in to an industry for billions of dollars, you have a vested interest in seeing them bet back on their feet, even if it costs billions of more dollars, so he didn't have much choice.
I'm sorry, I don't understand exactly what you mean. All Catholics are criminals?
As soon as it came out that the current Pope gave the order to cover up the atrocious crimes being committed by Church officials in Ireland and elsewhere, the change in status of the Catholic Church -- from religious organization to crime syndicate -- was confirmed. Until they clean house, including indicting the Pope, donating money to the Catholic Church is directly contributing to the financing of organized crime.
I'm sorry, I don't understand exactly what you mean. All Catholics are criminals?
Cain seems to view Mosques as a criminal organization, rather than a religious institution.
Fair enough. And sometimes snippets and sound bites don't carry the whole story unfortunately. That was all I meant to say.
This is very true, and applies to everyone.
Personally, I remain concerned about the Mosque bit. As for the wealth thing -- I'm not totally naive. I grew up poor and surrounded by the poor, and many of them made their own beds. Many others, however, did not.
As soon as it came out that the current Pope gave the order to cover up the atrocious crimes being committed by Church officials in Ireland and elsewhere, the change in status of the Catholic Church -- from religious organization to crime syndicate -- was confirmed. Under the current circumstances, donating money to the Catholic Church is contributing to the financing of organized crime.
I'm almost wholly ignorant about what you're describing. Assuming it to be true, however, I don't think it means that most Catholics condone or sanction such activities or should be prosecuted in some manner, even if they unknowingly lent them financial support.
So if the poor make themselves poor, why is it that we suddenly have a lot more people deciding to be poor whenever wallstreet's sociopathy catches up with itself and starts closing businesses?
Cain seems to view Mosques as a criminal organization, rather than a religious institution.
Which I agree is a problem. I'm confused -- did I somehow give the impression that I believe otherwise? :)
um, correct me if I'm wrong but we had just that when Obama increased the bailouts?Sort of.
First Obama couldn't pass anything in the senate because he couldn't break the filibuster, the senate effectively requires 60 votes to pass anything.
Secondly the bailout came in halves. Once you're in to an industry for billions of dollars, you have a vested interest in seeing them bet back on their feet, even if it costs billions of more dollars, so he didn't have much choice.
I can see an argument for the necessity of some kind of bail-out to prevent a chain reaction. However, there should have been subsequent investigations and prosecutions, along with substantial regulatory reform. Neither of these things occurred under Obama.
Senior Software Developer
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Oh hey, look another couple derails. I'd love to see a thoughtful discussion of the Occupy Wall Street protests, but not here. And the religion stuff, too, I guess, though I think we already have a thread for that.
(To reiterate why I'm doing this here, even though "off-topic" is right in the name of the forum: My theory is that potentially fighty threads get worse when lots of tangents are brought in. I am hoping that focusing these discussions will lead to better conversation and less grar. If not, well, at least we tried before instituting a total ban on political/religious/hot-topic discussions.)
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Cain seems to view Mosques as a criminal organization, rather than a religious institution.
Actually he said they were a government institution as well as a religious institution.
As was mentioned several pages back, Cain's issue is with the practice of Sharia Law and its incompatibility with our Constitutional government, not the Islamic faith.Though he HAS stated he was concerned by FBI reports that SOME mosques were used for terrorist recruitment (was that was the "criminal" part you were refering to?), he hasn't stated that ALL mosques are used for recruitment.
Cain's issue is with the practice of Sharia Law and its incompatibility with our Constitutional government, not the Islamic faith.
But Cain's not addressing equally contradictory ecclesiastical laws from other faiths, blue laws, etc.
If someone tells me I'm not anti pit-bull, I'm anti dog, but owns a German Shepard a mastiff and a chihuahua reconciling their statement with reality seems futile at best.
Oh hey, look another couple derails. I'd love to see a thoughtful discussion of the Occupy Wall Street protests, but not here. And the religion stuff, too, I guess, though I think we already have a thread for that.
(To reiterate why I'm doing this here, even though "off-topic" is right in the name of the forum: My theory is that potentially fighty threads get worse when lots of tangents are brought in. I am hoping that focusing these discussions will lead to better conversation and less grar. If not, well, at least we tried before instituting a total ban on political/religious/hot-topic discussions.)
holy crap -did I ninja you in my above post?
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But Cain's not addressing equally contradictory ecclesiastical laws from other faiths, blue laws, etc.
If someone tells me I'm not anti pit-bull, I'm anti dog, but owns a German Shepard a mastiff and a chihuahua reconciling their statement with reality seems futile at best.
With the exception of the Vatican, I don't know of any other religion that includes a politican governing system. Sharia Law is a governing system. And I haven't seen any Catholics trying to get a case decided in a US Court by Catholic Laws. (Is there such a thing? I'm not Catholic, sorry.)
SOME (NOT all) Muslims would like to have Sharia Law be used in the US court system (SOME! SOME I tell you! This is NOT a blanket statement!)
This is what Cain's real concern is. That Sharia Law may be used in our courts (his exact word was "infiltrate" which I don't like but, eh.)
And I'm sorry but I don't get the dog example. I've been trying to understand it. It might be over my head. :)
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Me either. The sense of entitlement here is mind boggling.Wealth and income disparity have been increasing for the last several decades. The middle class is evaporating. This against a backdrop of investment firms (I won't call them banks) getting billions or trillions in bailouts.
Unless you somehow believe that 99% of the population is "lazy" and "had it coming," I really don't see what is so hard to understand.
First, I believe TARP was about 700 Billion. The government took back equity interest in these companies to shore up the equity markets to prevent an even bigger crash from what started in late 2007 and came to a head with the demise of Lehman Brothers. Most of the TARP funds have been repaid back to the government. Bailing out the equity markets may have saved untold number of jobs. Without the bailout, we may be in a far worse shape than we are today.
The unemployment rate is around 10% in the US. The Middle-Class is roughly 45% of the population, with another 35% or so considered Working-Class. The Rich and Super-Rich represents about 6%. That would leave about 14% of the population poor. In Russia the poor is over 20% of the population by comparison. It is around 16% in China. There will always be the HAVES and the HAVE NOTs, even in Communist China. But there is a way to make it better.
The Corporate Tax Rate in the United States is one of the highest in the world. These Tax Rates creates a negative business climate for the creation of jobs in the US. And it is jobs that will help move a higher and higher percentage from poor to working class to middle-class, etc. It is a trickle effect that when the first jobs are created, even more are created to support the first jobs, etc.. The opposite is also true. When jobs are lost, this in turns means more jobs will be lost. So why is the Middle Class shrinking? I would say that the US has an unhealthy climate for business to create jobs. That is why.
We need a President that will change the climate. Herman Cain proposes a 9% Corporate Tax Rate, this would make it one of the most favorable in the world. It would bring new business to the US from both within and abroad. It would be a huge job creator.
And please keep in mind that without a few people making pots and pots full of money, then very few of us would make any at all. The 6% of the Rich is not what is causing a shrinking Middle Class. It is lost business opportunities that leads to unemployment.
Let the flaming begin!
Later,
Mazra
With the exception of the Vatican, I don't know of any other religion that includes a politican governing system.
Given the threads risk of derailment all i can say is that they definitely exist.
Supply-side economics
No flaming, just disagreement. In my opinion, what you are saying (and what Herman Cain seems to be believe) runs counter to decades of readily observable data.
*shrug*
One of us is wrong, but I'm hardly going to convince you that it isn't me. :)
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We need a President that will change the climate. Herman Cain proposes a 9% Corporate Tax Rate, this would make it one of the most favorable in the world. It would bring new business to the US from both within and abroad. It would be a huge job creator.
I think Cain's plan is a myth on a few fronts.
First off while we have a high theoretical corporate tax rate, its so riddled wit exceptions, loop holes, and subsidies that the actual rate is far lower. GE got away with paying NO corporate taxes.
Secondly, taxes or not, paying an american 10 dollars an hour, his unemployment insurance, workers comp insurance, etc is NEVER going to compete with a Chinese guy making 1 dollar an hour and if your el cheapo hand crusher 6000 lops off his foot you can just toss him out in the street.
Businesses in China can also pollute to their hearts content. In America you need to pay to get rid of your factory waste.
We are NEVER going to beat china at being china. We do not WANT to beat china at being china. The entire reason we have a government in the first place is to AVOID becoming a bunch of slaves to whoever can amass enough money and the guns to go with them.
China is an almost perfect capitalist model. Ayn Rand's dream, and the model for all corporations worldwide. It's your fault you're not rich.
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First off while we have a high theoretical corporate tax rate, its so riddled wit exceptions, loop holes, and subsidies that the actual rate is far lower. GE got away with paying NO corporate taxes.
Which is why Cain wants to SCRAP the current tax system. Do away with those loopholes.
Are you saying corporations are only here at all is because of those loopholes?
And I haven't seen any Catholics trying to get a case decided in a US Court by Catholic Laws. (Is there such a thing? I'm not Catholic, sorry.)
I've provided links to where the Catholic Church unilaterally decided that felonies committed by its priests are specifically outside the authority of the the countries where those crimes were committed. Why are people OK with this?
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I've provided links to where the Catholic Church unilaterally decided that felonies committed by its priests are specifically outside the authority of the the countries where those crimes were committed. Why are people OK with this?
I'm *not* "OK" with it. I haven't commented further because:
(1) I'm not OK with Mr. Cain's position on mosques, either, rendering him an unacceptable candidate -- and making his apparent hypocrisy a moot point; and
(2) Gary asked us to get off religion.
We need a President that will change the climate. Herman Cain proposes a 9% Corporate Tax Rate, this would make it one of the most favorable in the world. It would bring new business to the US from both within and abroad. It would be a huge job creator.I think Cain's plan is a myth on a few fronts.
First off while we have a high theoretical corporate tax rate, its so riddled wit exceptions, loop holes, and subsidies that the actual rate is far lower. GE got away with paying NO corporate taxes.
Secondly, taxes or not, paying an american 10 dollars an hour, his unemployment insurance, workers comp insurance, etc is NEVER going to compete with a Chinese guy making 1 dollar an hour and if your el cheapo hand crusher 6000 lops off his foot you can just toss him out in the street.
Businesses in China can also pollute to their hearts content. In America you need to pay to get rid of your factory waste.
We are NEVER going to beat china at being china. We do not WANT to beat china at being china. The entire reason we have a government in the first place is to AVOID becoming a bunch of slaves to whoever can amass enough money and the guns to go with them.
The scary part? This is exactly the stuff the Liberal parties (classic Liberalism, not US politics liberal) here in Denmark wanted to convince the population was the right way to go in our weeks old election. And telling them that the only way we could compete with China (and Eastern European countries, especially Poland) was to become like them (i.e. pretty much give up our well-fare system, strict adherence to environmental rules etc.) didn't seem to penetrate their thick skulls.
So it's not just US Libertarians and Republicans who think this way.
I think (hope?) that Gary meant general religious stuff that doesn't pertain to Mr. Cain directly.
So I hope I'm not diverging from the topic with this.
If Cain is concerned about Muslim Sharia laws, shouldn't he also be concerned with Judaism and Jewish courts? They also exist in the US and are used, just like many Muslims want to with Sharia, in the Jewish community when some settlements are to be brokered and don't directly contradict US law.
Examples from e.g. the UK would be Sharia law being applied in inheritance settlements, divorces (if all parts agree - although this can be a very grey area) and similar instances.
So it's not just US Libertarians and Republicans who think this way.
Huh. So millionaires the world over think that millionaires should have all the money even if that means people getting sick, dying, and working themselves to death for the basic necessities. They're also willing to spend some of their money on politics to keep the rest of it. Go figure :)
It would be wrong to deprive people of their right to starve to death in a ditch. ;P
Huh. So millionaires the world over think that millionaires should have all the money even if that means people getting sick, dying, and working themselves to death for the basic necessities. They're also willing to spend some of their money on politics to keep the rest of it. Go figure :)
I blame the parents.
It would be wrong to deprive people of their right to starve to death in a ditch. ;P
*sigh* Yet another reason not to post when annoyed.
My apologies for the sarcasm.
Cain just won Minnesota. Apparently he's a front runner for the most part.
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Too bad he's not the "outsider" he's painted to be. He's the Koch brothers' errand boy. Bought and paid for.
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A conservative's take on Cain.