Racing to Ruin: Did I do something wrong?


Serpent's Skull

Sovereign Court

Hey guys!

We are running this AP since the beginning. We started with a little side-quest so people entered level 1 or 2, BUT I XP-Cap them to the highest level they should be in the quest.

We are a big group (8), but rarely complete: most of the weeks, I have between 4-6 PCs.

As of now, entering Tazion, people are between level 5 and 7. As I am reading this part again, I fear it won't be a challenge for my party. Charau-kas, be them 3 at a time, just won't cut it for us! Even the bosses don't seem very challenging.

The party didn't have access to extra magical items beside those in the AP, exception made to the stuff they were able to buy with the gold coins (but then again, nothing unbalancing).

So, what happened to us? If I'm not mistaken, the adventure is for 5 pc's, levels 4 to 7 right? Why so many CR2 and 3 at the end of this quest? Anybody else faced the same problems? How did you do to make it challenging?

Fred


no, I kind of felt the entire balancing issue of this adventure was a hot mess from the get-go.

We did one or two Charau-ka encounters and then fast forwarded through the rest. Remember, Tazion is supposed to be a somewhat hurried dungeon crawl, so 5 points of damage here and there before the party goes into the two primary temples is really all you are going for.

In fact, have the Charau-kas in or near the central temple do hit and runs and then add some of them to the priest boss fight.

The final boss fight I think anticipates your being down quite a bit in stats, hit points and spells. Its problem, like the previous boss fight, is that the entire difficulty of the encounter is conditional on whether the first round charm spell works or fails.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

First of all the adventure assumes 4 PCs. If you take a group of 6 through the module as written it will be much easier of course.

Nevertheless, for my group of 4 the charau-ka were no real challenge either, but the fact that the players have to switch their power economy from 1 encounter/day to 4-5/day was. That probably won't happen to more experienced players but in my group it took some time.

The boss fight doesn't rely on the dominate person spell at all, in my opinion. The boss is blinking, mirrored, and (possibly) protected from arrows while spider climbing out of reach for melee PCs. He carries a *wand* of web, so he'll hamper the PCs movement as well while his burning sphere deals the damage for him. And then there are his 2(!) lightning bolts, fired in close quarters where the PCs are likely to be lined up.

So my point is, he is certainly no push-over and well-prepared. In my game, a character was even killed by him. If you intend to run this with 6 PCs though you might want to involve the 2 charau-ka and the girallon from upstairs after a few rounds.

Sovereign Court

Thanks for the input,

I thought they were designed for 5 pc's, my mistake. But often (like tonite) we are four, so...

I think what I'll do, is to put a few Chemosits in charge at certain point. I think it'd be (for my group anyway) way more challenging if one chemosit accompanies a few of the Charau-kas parties. Maybe have all the CHarau-Kas replaced by Chemosits in the final bash.

Fred


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

For the final encounter, I wouldn't underestimate the power of a girallon, there's a reason its CR is 2 higher than the chemosit's. Maybe you should consider keeping Paleflesh.

FYI: In City of Seven Spears the charau-ka patrols are accompanied by dire apes.

I like your idea of a chained or charmed chemosit however that might turn on its captors if it gets the opportunity...


Concordia wrote:

Hey guys!

We are running this AP since the beginning. We started with a little side-quest so people entered level 1 or 2, BUT I XP-Cap them to the highest level they should be in the quest.

We are a big group (8), but rarely complete: most of the weeks, I have between 4-6 PCs.

As of now, entering Tazion, people are between level 5 and 7. As I am reading this part again, I fear it won't be a challenge for my party. Charau-kas, be them 3 at a time, just won't cut it for us! Even the bosses don't seem very challenging.

The party didn't have access to extra magical items beside those in the AP, exception made to the stuff they were able to buy with the gold coins (but then again, nothing unbalancing).

So, what happened to us? If I'm not mistaken, the adventure is for 5 pc's, levels 4 to 7 right? Why so many CR2 and 3 at the end of this quest? Anybody else faced the same problems? How did you do to make it challenging?

Fred

Do Not I repeat Not underestimate those Charau-Kas. I admit they seem like little pansies when put up a party at the suggested level. But look at the maps and sections they appear in they almost always have an ambush or cover for at least the first round. They have the Throw Anything feat and a virtually unlimited supply of ammo from the stones lying around. Their job is to annoy, pester, and subtly weaken the party before they encounter the "big bad" of the AP. They almost killed the more "squishy" members of the party I GM for by themselves (and like you I run larger than normal groups, roughly 5 or 6 players).

If you really want to toughen up these encounters I would suggest just slightly upping the numbers of them that dwell in the city.

As for the bosses don't underestimate them either read their stat blocks carefully. Their tactics are written for vs 4pcs when you have a larger group play alter the tactics to use the advantages they normally don't use.

Sovereign Court

The Girallon is good, I like it and is quite challenging. We encountered a couple in random encounters and it was a fun fight.

But for the Charau-kas, I don't agree. Through a combination of feats, equipment and ability scores, most of the party is AC23 to 25. That means the Charau-Kas will hit only 15% of the time (18+), for 1-4+2 damage? +1-6 of fire damage near the tar pits? My tanks have over 70 HP (the lucky Barbarian, who is level 7 and CON 18, is nearing 100). Even with the ambushes, I give them 2 rnds max, with little risks for the party.

I'll give them a chance tonite though: we are entering Tazion. So I'll see how it goes with the traps, but I'll but 4 per patrol. There's no way 3 of them can do the trick!

As a sidenote: the end battles usually are challenging so far, so I don't tweek them too much. I also always max out encounters HP, I don't know if I mentionned this before.

Thanks for the input guys, I'll let you know how it goes.

Fred


Here's a side question:

If the big boss is a caster more or less guarding a room, what's to stop the adventuring party from waiting 20 minutes or so for the caster's buffs to all wear off and then charging in? I've always wanted to try that, but it seems to piss of GM's.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

That only works if you play the caster as very, very territorial. As soon as he realizes the PCs tactic he should take appropriate actions (i.e. attack them).

Sovereign Court

As I feared, even against a party of 4, the 3-member parties of Charau-Kas proved highly ineffective.

I tried adding a fourth one to no avail. Only real challenge cam when I added a Chemosit to the Charau-kas.

I admit the bosses look good, but I'll definitely add a second Girallon.

As I said, I don't know where I missed something, but this is just not enough.

Do you guys allowed your players to better equip themselves with their money or did you limit them to what they found in the books?

Fred

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Concordia wrote:

As I feared, even against a party of 4, the 3-member parties of Charau-Kas proved highly ineffective.

I tried adding a fourth one to no avail. Only real challenge cam when I added a Chemosit to the Charau-kas.

I admit the bosses look good, but I'll definitely add a second Girallon.

As I said, I don't know where I missed something, but this is just not enough.

Do you guys allowed your players to better equip themselves with their money or did you limit them to what they found in the books?

Fred

I've been pretty much using equipment/treasure in the books with the exception of the stops in Eleder and Kalabuto. That said, the party is slightly below WBL standards until they can set up the base camp at Saventh-Yhi (lots of gold and loot to move).

My 5 man party was walking over the 3 man groups as well. I bumped them up to 4 or 5 man groups and still no challenge. Then I started just using them as scouts for groups of Charau-Ka "enforcers." Some Barb 1's I quickly gen'd up that were camped in the jungle areas to the northwest and northeast corners of Tazion. They seemed to do MUCH better with Shrieking Frenzy + Rage + 2-handed clubs.

Just my 2 cp.

Sovereign Court

@Jenner: Very good point, I'll try transforming some of them into Barbarians, or even archery rangers.

Fred


Nullpunkt wrote:
First of all the adventure assumes 4 PCs. If you take a group of 6 through the module as written it will be much easier of course.

But you also should be getting less experience for six players than for four.

I'm transitioning into this AP from Savage Tides. My players are starting off at 7th level before beginning the Race to Ruin. I'm having to evaluate every encounter and up the ante. Part of the way I am doing this is by truncating the race. As I am still running this on the Isle of Dread, it's not a 56 day journey, it's a seven day journey, on a good day, not taking into effect things like heat. Two of the factions are taking a longer, safer route. I'm hoping that by the time they reach Tazion, they are only 8th level.

That said, Charau-ka can take class levels....

Girallons...I threw two of these against my party (4 Level 7 characters) the last session. They normally camp in a rope trick, but had to use the rope trick to avoid being eaten alive by army ants. The fighter charged one, and hit, but then got hit by 4 claws, a bite, and a rend, and went to 6 hit points rather quickly. As his previous character was rent in two by a troll, he's a little cautious of creatures who do this tactic. Now he is just plain scared of girallons.

I would definitely involve the Charau-ka and girralon in the fight with Issilar. They are arguing upstairs, and most likely are going to hear the battle. Heck, if Issilar knows the party is there, and has time prepare, he may have time to go upstairs and get them...

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