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I'd treat them as an improvised dart. -4 to hit, 1d4 damage, range of 20'. That's probably being generous.
I recommend grabbing an arrow, going outside and giving it a try. Report back on how well it worked.
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I hear you can line up hundreds of commoners and have them ready actions to pass the arrow off or something...
Creative Director
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I recommend grabbing an arrow, going outside and giving it a try. Report back on how well it worked.
This.
A dagger or dart is balanced and built to be thrown. You could treat it as a Fine improvised weapon—so a range increment of 10 feet, a –4 penalty on attack rolls, and 1d2/x2 damage. And even that 1d2 seems generous.
If someone tried it in a game I was running, I'd tell them to drop the arrow and look for a rock to throw.
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Of course they can. You can throw pretty much anythign you can easily lift.
They'd be pretty much useless as a weapon though. There is a reason that the entire human species has used bows to launch arrows throughout the history of our planet.
Because throwing them is not effective.
I would allow them as improvised melee weapons, but not as thrown weapons. I have seen far too many players try to convince the DM that if they can throw 1 arrow for 1d4 damage, then they can throw a hand full of arrows for 10d4. The easiest path is to simply say, grab a rock or an actual thrown weapon, not an incredibly light arrow.
So RAW, can I put +1 and returning on a stack of 50 arrows...?
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Creative Director
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So RAW, can I put +1 and returning on a stack of 50 arrows...?
That's easy. Arrows are ammunition. Magical ammunition is destroyed when it's used. You could put returning on a magic arrow, but it'd be a waste of your energy since they'd be destroyed before they get to ever use their returning ability.
So RAW, can I put +1 and returning on a stack of 50 arrows...?That's easy. Arrows are ammunition. Magical ammunition is destroyed when it's used. You could put returning on a magic arrow, but it'd be a waste of your energy since they'd be destroyed before they get to ever use their returning ability.
Not to be a rules lawyer, but it's only destroyed when it hits. If it misses it is damaged or lost only 50% of the time (Core Rulebook, p. 468).
EDIT: (Odd thing is masterwork ammunition is destroyed when used [p. 149] normal ammuntion is destoryed on a hit and lost or destroyed 50% of the time on a miss [p. 141]. Go figure.)
So, unless you plan on missing an awful lot....
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So RAW, can I put +1 and returning on a stack of 50 arrows...?That's easy. Arrows are ammunition. Magical ammunition is destroyed when it's used. You could put returning on a magic arrow, but it'd be a waste of your energy since they'd be destroyed before they get to ever use their returning ability.Not to be a rules lawyer, but it's only destroyed when it hits. If it misses it is damaged or lost only 50% of the time (Core Rulebook, p. 468).
So, unless you plan on missing an awful lot....
Phrases that start "Not to be a rules lawyer, but..." might as well say, "I love being a rules layer, so..."
Nothing wrong with being a rules lawyer. Just don't lose sight of the fact that just because the rules say something is so, doesn't mean that it makes sense.
And throwing arrows as viable weapons doesn't make sense. If it did, the world would have never invented the bow in the first place; we would have just invented arrows.
I was really only trying to get some extra hit chance for using telekinesis without having to buy a whole mess of enchanted weapons. Back to the drawing board.
Edit: Just occured to me...greater magic weapon on a stack I plan to use beforehand...?
Are you asking if they're throw able? Then yes. If you're asking if they do damage when thrown by a normal humanoid? Then no.
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I was really only trying to get some extra hit chance for using telekinesis without having to buy a whole mess of enchanted weapons. Back to the drawing board.
Edit: Just occured to me...greater magic weapon on a stack I plan to use beforehand...?
The telekinesis + arrow trick is one that, I suspect, was never in the mind of any game designer when the telekinesis spell was originally created. A look at the spell design guidelines in Ultimate Magic bears this out—the damage a storm of magic arrows hurled by telekinesis (especially if you cast flame arrow on them) does is way above what a 5th level spell should be able to do.
It's a rules exploit, in other words. If your GM allows it... use it! I don't allow it in my games though.
Someone in another post about arcane tricksters mentioned a rogue with UMD being capable of this with sneak attack (seperate rolls by RAW). But you can't use wands for spells higher than 4, so where might I find the rules for making say, a 3x a day clvl 15th telekinesis item?
I can see the telekinesis + arrows being an amusingly effective strategy. Note that arrows deal damage as daggers of their size. So, could you use colossal arrows? I'd imagine them to be about the size of ballista bolts.
If not, doing 15d4 at 15th level for a 5th level spell slot is hardly overpowered.
Of course, adding Flame Arrow to the mix does pretty much double the damage. 15d4+15d6 is none too shabby. But really, why would that line even be in the Telekinesis spell description if it was never intended?
I can see the telekinesis + arrows being an amusingly effective strategy. Note that arrows deal damage as daggers of their size. So, could you use colossal arrows? I'd imagine them to be about the size of ballista bolts.
If not, doing 15d4 at 15th level for a 5th level spell slot is hardly overpowered.
Of course, adding Flame Arrow to the mix does pretty much double the damage. 15d4+15d6 is none too shabby. But really, why would that line even be in the Telekinesis spell description if it was never intended?
You can't thrust 15 objects any heavier than 25 lbs apiece so the size thing can't go to far. Also Arcane Strike pretty much adds 75 damage to the volley if it's being cast by a lvl 20 wizzy. Granted, a lvl 20 wizzy will have about +28 to hit with them all(10 BAB+5 Enhance+13 or so int), which is kindof meh at 20.
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You can do it just fine if you use Ki Arrow spell:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/k/ki-arrow
Arrow rules say you can use it in melee at -4 and dmg as a Dagger with x2 Crit.
You can throw a dagger. You should be able to throw something you treat as a dagger. Tyki saves the day!
As everyone else is saying: Arrows aren't supposed to be thrown. You don't get nearly enough power to do anything worthwhile with them as a thrown weapon.
And telekinesis doesn't really help, either. Telekinesis is a lot like throwing something instead of launching it from a bow or crossbow. That's why you don't want to use projectiles as your telekinesis arrow.
And throwing arrows as viable weapons doesn't make sense. If it did, the world would have never invented the bow in the first place; we would have just invented arrows.
This reminds me of the Vlad Taltos books. Apparently, bows are very uncommon there.
There's one book where Vlad tells about this time when he was in the army for a short while. They had a standard procedure for reacting to a charge: They'd throw three javelins and then switch to their swords.
So they knew javelins.
And then one time, the enemy came with "javelin casters". A weird weapon (I think it was imported) that was able to launch a special sort of javelin over greater distances than you could throw one. it was a curved piece of wood with a string, and the tension of the wood as it tried to go back straight would allow those smaller javelins to be shot.
So in that world, they did, at least at first, just invent the "arrows" (i.e. javelins) and only much later got the idea of the bow.
Someone in another post about arcane tricksters mentioned a rogue with UMD being capable of this with sneak attack (seperate rolls by RAW). But you can't use wands for spells higher than 4, so where might I find the rules for making say, a 3x a day clvl 15th telekinesis item?
You could just make a staff with telekinesis. Beyond that, the basic rules for x/day magic items are in the Magic Item Creation section. There's a big table with common magic item prices. An item that lets you cast telekinesis a couple of times per day is pretty standard material.
The relevant entry is:
Command word: Spell level x caster level x 1800 gp (for unlimited uses)
Charges per day: Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
So an item that lets you use CL 15 telekinesis three times a day will set you back 81k 1/day could be had for 27000, or one with 50 charges for 67500.
A staff of telekinesis (CL 15) would cost 30000, but you'd have to be a spellcaster to use it, it would have 10 charges which could be recharged as usual for staves.
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As everyone else is saying: Arrows aren't supposed to be thrown. You don't get nearly enough power to do anything worthwhile with them as a thrown weapon.
And telekinesis doesn't really help, either. Telekinesis is a lot like throwing something instead of launching it from a bow or crossbow. That's why you don't want to use projectiles as your telekinesis arrow.
And throwing arrows as viable weapons doesn't make sense. If it did, the world would have never invented the bow in the first place; we would have just invented arrows.This reminds me of the Vlad Taltos books. Apparently, bows are very uncommon there.
There's one book where Vlad tells about this time when he was in the army for a short while. They had a standard procedure for reacting to a charge: They'd throw three javelins and then switch to their swords.
So they knew javelins.
And then one time, the enemy came with "javelin casters". A weird weapon (I think it was imported) that was able to launch a special sort of javelin over greater distances than you could throw one. it was a curved piece of wood with a string, and the tension of the wood as it tried to go back straight would allow those smaller javelins to be shot.
So in that world, they did, at least at first, just invent the "arrows" (i.e. javelins) and only much later got the idea of the bow.
Nope, they just used an Atlatl.