Ok, so I've gotten it into my head that I want to send my party on a side quest to the Tomb of Horrors (the 3e version Wizards posted a long while ago). My logic is simple: I want to boost them up so that they are strong enough for the Champion's Belt, and I want to give them some history in preparation for when they have to go retrieve the Sphere of Annihilation near the end of the AP. (None of my players have ever played ToH and all but one haven't even heard of it.) They aren't, and won't be 9th level (the recommended level for ToH), so that's probably my first mistake. (The effective party level will probably be mid-8th level by the time we finish HoHR.) I know the original is a killer dungeon (I played in it a loooonnngggg time ago) but upon perusal, the 3e version seems less terrifying.
So has anyone run the converted version? Am I leading my party to certain doom if I try this? Should I just quietly back way from this idea?
Greg
Ok, so I've gotten it into my head that I want to send my party on a side quest to the Tomb of Horrors (the 3e version Wizards posted a long while ago). My logic is simple: I want to boost them up so that they are strong enough for the Champion's Belt, and I want to give them some history in preparation for when they have to go retrieve the Sphere of Annihilation near the end of the AP. (None of my players have ever played ToH and all but one haven't even heard of it.) They aren't, and won't be 9th level (the recommended level for ToH), so that's probably my first mistake. (The effective party level will probably be mid-8th level by the time we finish HoHR.) I know the original is a killer dungeon (I played in it a loooonnngggg time ago) but upon perusal, the 3e version seems less terrifying.
So has anyone run the converted version? Am I leading my party to certain doom if I try this? Should I just quietly back way from this idea?
Greg
The moment I saw the reference to ToH, I got really excited... because I'm putting a bunch of new players through this AP. I'm actually kicking around removing "Gathering of Winds", the module after Champion's Belt... That seemed closer to the recommended levels for ToH.
I do agree that 3.5 ToH seems a lot more friendly than the previous version. Well, it leans more towards "annoying" and less toward "deadly".
- They'll be WAY too high of a level, I'd have to adjust everything in the module... and I'm kinda lazy.
- They'd be walking through ToH WITH the Sphere, since it's right at the beginning.
Best idea ever, if you want to teach your players fear. Not so good for giving them items
Its more for the XP than for the goods. There are a few niceties at the end and I was going to maybe supplement it a little, but it's all those CR traps that will put the XP in their back pockets. The fear thing will be an added bonus, I think.
The moment I saw the reference to ToH, I got really excited... because I'm putting a bunch of new players through this AP. I'm actually kicking around removing "Gathering of Winds", the module after Champion's Belt... That seemed closer to the recommended levels for ToH.
Yeah, its similar. Technically, Champion's Belt is 9th and so is ToH. I haven't checked Gathering, but it's probably 11 or 12th at start. That's my primary reason, to get them up to or above the 9th level mark. Also, I figure I can get Eligos to ask the PCs to investigate because he suspects a critical piece of information (not sure what yet) can be found in a long lost diary of Acererak. He'll provide the party with a 2-way teleport device given to him by his former master that would take them to and back at whim. That way, if the ToH becomes too overpowering and they just want out, they can bail.
Greg
It's a deathtrap, plain and simple. It was designed to murder PCs.
The original, yes. The 3e version, no.
The 3e version is only deadly, in my experience, if the party is SEVERELY under-leveled. I ran it for a group of 3rd-level PCs and it had roughly the deadliness of the earlier editions. There's a lot of clever traps, but with all of the saves & search checks and whatnot that everyone will be making (that simply didn't exist in earlier editions), the 3e version ends up feeling less like the "Tomb of Horrors" and more "Tomb of Monotonous Traps that are Mildly Annoying and Can Be Completely Overcome by a Rogue or Two". Also, anyone who knows they're going through the Tomb of Horrors (whether they've been through it or not) will know to be on their most cautious behavior, and thus, will not fall victim to the majority of the traps.
All in all, I was VERY disappointed when I tried to run the 3e version, because the first two times I ran it we got halfway through the dungeon, nobody had even come close to dying, and the players were more frustrated than anything else (particularly with all of the traps/hidden doors that required something incredibly specific to bypass, which was the norm in 1e, but is largely unheard of in 3.x). If your players are anywhere near the level of the adventure (8th, I think?) then they are in no danger at all until the very end of the adventure, and even then only if they're very careless.
It's a deathtrap, plain and simple. It was designed to murder PCs.The original, yes. The 3e version, no.
The 3e version is only deadly, in my experience, if the party is SEVERELY under-leveled. I ran it for a group of 3rd-level PCs and it had roughly the deadliness of the earlier editions. There's a lot of clever traps, but with all of the saves & search checks and whatnot that everyone will be making (that simply didn't exist in earlier editions), the 3e version ends up feeling less like the "Tomb of Horrors" and more "Tomb of Monotonous Traps that are Mildly Annoying and Can Be Completely Overcome by a Rogue or Two". Also, anyone who knows they're going through the Tomb of Horrors (whether they've been through it or not) will know to be on their most cautious behavior, and thus, will not fall victim to the majority of the traps.
All in all, I was VERY disappointed when I tried to run the 3e version, because the first two times I ran it we got halfway through the dungeon, nobody had even come close to dying, and the players were more frustrated than anything else (particularly with all of the traps/hidden doors that required something incredibly specific to bypass, which was the norm in 1e, but is largely unheard of in 3.x). If your players are anywhere near the level of the adventure (8th, I think?) then they are in no danger at all until the very end of the adventure, and even then only if they're very careless.
Its unfortunate but I have encountered something similar myself when I converted the old 1E dungeon adventure The Secret of the Towers to 3.5. One of the towers was nothing but a nasty trap fest and that works well in 1E but in 3rd its just boring. Take 20 on searching again and again, locate the trap and bypass or neutralize.
The modern versions of the game don't really do trap filled environments very well most of the time. Trap filled environments in 1E and 2E where essentially vicious puzzles but the same effect is not really true with modern versions where the players handle the threat through a repetitive dice rolling mechanic.
With some effort I think an adventure along the lines of death dealing trap fest is possible in the modern versions of the game but you need to start at a different place. For starters the players probably need to be under time pressure - the unbeatable thing is chasing them for example and the only way to avoid going through rounds of combat with the unbeatable thing is to move through trap laden rooms quickly.
All in all, I was VERY disappointed when I tried to run the 3e version, because the first two times I ran it we got halfway through the dungeon, nobody had even come close to dying, and the players were more frustrated than anything else (particularly with all of the traps/hidden doors that required something incredibly specific to bypass, which was the norm in 1e, but is largely unheard of in 3.x).
Its unfortunate but I have encountered something similar myself when I converted the old 1E dungeon adventure The Secret of the Towers to 3.5. One of the towers was nothing but a nasty trap fest and that works well in 1E but in 3rd its just boring. Take 20 on searching again and again, locate the trap and bypass or neutralize.
Well, I've gone from nervously excited to downright bummed. Thanks guys :)
Just kidding. I do appreciate the input, I had seriously forgotten about Take 20. And here I've been DMing 3e this whole time (since 2000). Yikes. Gonna go over ToH with a fine toothed comb. See where the boring points might be. If I find too many of them, its out the window.
If all else fails, my original idea for the end of the AP was
Thanks for the input.
Greg
If I recall correctly, one cannot "take 20" for skill checks where the chances of failure come with consequences. So a Disable Device check can at the most "take 10".
Still, I feel the pain of the 3.5 conversion of ToH. I'm running it as a side adventure for a L 8 group (6 characters), and it's going far too easily. No one has died yet. (I did handwave as "racial memory/old legends" when the party carefully avoided the first green devil face, particularly as the paladin had just used Detect Evil on it. That particular trap has simply become too iconic.)
... Running it for a L 3 party? That sounds interesting ... :D
If I recall correctly, one cannot "take 20" for skill checks where the chances of failure come with consequences. So a Disable Device check can at the most "take 10".
You're right, but the Search to find the trap can be done with a "Take 20" (no consequence). So at least they can take 20 on the whole ToH to find the traps. They may not be able to disable them, but there are many they might be able to completely avoid.
Right now I'm mulling over Jeremy's idea of a time limit. I don't want to be too heavy handed, but so far the best I can come up with is an open portal to the ToH that only lasts for X hours. The problem there is that it assumes that the party will cut the adventure short to make it out in time. If they don't then one would have to live with the consequences of a party lost in the Vast Swamp. And they need to be back to participate in the Champion's Games.
Still thinking about this one.
Greg
... Running it for a L 3 party? That sounds interesting ... :D
Yeah, it was a neat idea I had- a couple of my buddies back a few years ago had grown kinda jaded with D&D 3.x, because it was starting to feel like more of a chore and less of a game. So as a laugh, I had them make 3rd-level characters and ran them through the Tomb of Horrors, with certain rules.
1. Any time the entire party was killed, the players were allowed to re-start at the beginning, with completely new characters (or the same characters if necessary). All traps would be re-set, and the dungeon would be exactly as when they first arrived. (That way, players would be willing to try something risky rather than keep their character alive.)
2. There would be little to no roleplaying involved- just running through a dungeon. This was mainly to keep the game quick and easy.
3. Because the players were able to constantly re-start, they were allowed to use any and all metagame knowledge they wanted. That made it more like a game or puzzle rather than a struggle to keep player knowledge and character knowledge separate.
4. Certain things would NOT reset when the players did- particularly, the few monsters in the tomb would reset, but their HP would not (this was the only real obstacle for 3rd-level PCs- the enemies would literally kill them in one-two hits). Also, once the players reached the false tomb and beat the false lich, I allowed them to leave and head back to town- after which they could re-make their characters at fifth level, and the tomb would reset to the midway point rather than the beginning. That made it so the entire thing wasn't just one long slog through an unchanging dungeon (whether that is a bad thing or not).
Just kidding. I do appreciate the input, I had seriously forgotten about Take 20. And here I've been DMing 3e this whole time (since 2000). Yikes. Gonna go over ToH with a fine toothed comb. See where the boring points might be. If I find too many of them, its out the window.
While take 20 is a huge culprit, another large factor is that players, in my experience, are WAY more cautious in 3.x than they were in 1e/2e. For example, I've NEVER seen a player stick anything other than an inanimate object into a dark hole (such as the demon's mouth), for reasons exemplified by that exact trap. Every player I've played with has been much less willing to simply "try something" rather than do every possible diagnostic they can just in case it's trapped.
As far as boring points, those come from the fact that 1e/2e had no search mechanic, so every interaction with the world around them had to be very specific (if there was a secret door, the players had to say what method they were using to find it, like pushing on panels, pulling a book out of the bookcase, etc. If I recall, the adventure began with three possible entrances to the tomb, and in order to find the right one the players had to "use a long device such as a shovel or longsword in a raking motion". Whereas in 3.x, it was replaced with a simple search check). But because this is supposed to be a semi-faithful recreation, certain parts of the tomb still require inanely specific interactions to overcome- in particular, there's a winding hallway fairly early on that has, like, seven secret doors in it (as in, open one secret door, find a tiny empty room. In that room is another secret door, which opens into another tiny empty room. In that room is another secret door, which opens into another tiny empty room, etc.) and each and every secret door has to be opened a different way (like one lifts up, one swivels, etc.) all the while a random character is targeted by a dart every round? Or something? This part in particular was just so tedious and frustrating for everyone involved that it wasn't entertaining in the least. (And it sure as heck wasn't scary. Just annoying.)
There's also a few parts where the adventure instructs the DM to begin counting down from ten. While this may have been a common device in earlier editions, unless you explain to your players what you're doing beforehand (like, at the beginning of the session, tell them what to do when you begin counting down from ten) they're likely going to just stare at you until you finish counting. Again, it's just a matter of 1e/2e being a completely different game.
While take 20 is a huge culprit, another large factor is that players, in my experience, are WAY more cautious in 3.x than they were in 1e/2e.
We as a group cut our teeth on 2nd edition starting in '97. Two of us (myself and one of my players) have been playing since original AD&D. Having said that, we have been playing 3e since late 2000 so we are pretty stuck in it, as it were. So I'll be looking out for that.
For example, I've NEVER seen a player stick anything other than an inanimate object into a dark hole (such as the demon's mouth), for reasons exemplified by that exact trap.
I do remember playing this adventure as a AD&D game and no one in our party stuck their hand into the black hole, either. So I don't necessarily think this is strictly a 3e trait.
Every player I've played with has been much less willing to simply "try something" rather than do every possible diagnostic they can just in case it's trapped.
There is a much heavier dependence on the die roll in 3e, that's for sure. I try, whenever there is a "disable device" roll associated with a trap, to come up with some sort of reason how that could be done. But sometimes I have to just handwave it away. How do you "disable" a magical trap, anyways?
As far as boring points, those come from the fact that 1e/2e had no search mechanic, so every interaction with the world around them had to be very specific (if there was a secret door, the players had to say what method they were using to find it, like pushing on panels, pulling a book out of the bookcase, etc. If I recall, the adventure began with three possible entrances to the tomb, and in order to find the right one the players had to "use a long device such as a shovel or longsword in a raking motion". Whereas in 3.x, it was replaced with a simple search check).
Not completely true. All characters had a 1 in 6 chance of finding a secret door. Elves had a 2 in 6 (or was it 3 in 6) chance of finding, and 1 in 6 chance of noticing one just by passing by it. There was no generic search roll, that's for sure, but finding secret doors was still a roll of chance. Now, finding and opening can always be 2 different things. Whenever a secret door has no specific means for opening, I assume its a simple latch that is found when the search DC is beat. However, if there is a more complicated mechanism, then even in 3e, I've always ruled that the players need to do more. They may find the secret door, but no way to open it. Searching the statue next to the door may result in them noticing that the arm is separate from the body and looks to be on a pivot. From there they can figure out that pulling down on the arm opens the door. Maybe I've been playing it "wrong" but that's how I've done it.
But because this is supposed to be a semi-faithful recreation, certain parts of the tomb still require inanely specific interactions to overcome- in particular, there's a winding hallway fairly early on that has, like, seven secret doors in it (as in, open one secret door, find a tiny empty room. In that room is another secret door, which opens into another tiny empty room. In that room is another secret door, which opens into another tiny empty room, etc.) and each and every secret door has to be opened a different way (like one lifts up, one swivels, etc.) all the while a random character is targeted by a dart every round? Or something? This part in particular was just so tedious and frustrating for everyone involved that it wasn't entertaining in the least. (And it sure as heck wasn't scary. Just annoying.)
I've seen that room, and the disclaimer. I'll look closer at it to see if there is a way to make it more interesting.
There's also a few parts where the adventure instructs the DM to begin counting down from ten. While this may have been a common device in earlier editions, unless you explain to your players what you're doing beforehand (like, at the beginning of the session, tell them what to do when you begin counting down from ten) they're likely going to just stare at you until you finish counting. Again, it's just a matter of 1e/2e being a completely different game.
No, this isn't a common tactic in other editions. I've used it at times (both 2e and 3e) to try and get players to hurry up with their decisions, especially in the heat of battle. Each round is supposed to take up 6 sec of time, but I've seen players mull over tactics for 5 min or more. I'm not strict about it, but when it gets out of hand, I'll put the players on the clock, so to speak. I don't remember the part you are referring to, so I'll have to look at it again. But my players have seen me do this in the past.
Thanks for the input. It's all good and I'll definitely look at this a lot closer. I figure if I'm going to use it, it will probably be next week or the week after.
Greg
No, this isn't a common tactic in other editions. I've used it at times (both 2e and 3e) to try and get players to hurry up with their decisions, especially in the heat of battle. Each round is supposed to take up 6 sec of time, but I've seen players mull over tactics for 5 min or more. I'm not strict about it, but when it gets out of hand, I'll put the players on the clock, so to speak. I don't remember the part you are referring to, so I'll have to look at it again. But my players have seen me do this in the past.
I'm fairly certain there's more than one instance of the "counting down" mechanic in this adventure, but I know one off the top of my head is the wish-granting gem in the room with the pillars (there's a red gem that, when a character picks it up, knows it can grant one wish, which it perverts as best as possible, and then explodes ten seconds later). I think something similar happens when you kill the false lich, but I'm not sure (it might just be that the tomb looks like it's about to collapse, or something).
Oh, and I remembered one more change I made for my low-level ToH- I banned adamantine weapons. If you allow them, some player is going to get the idea in their head to just bash through the walls (especially if they know a particular door is trapped), and, as written, there's nothing stopping them. So for your own sake, either disallow adamantine weapons, or come up with some reason why they don't let you slice through walls (walls are supernaturally hard, invisible walls of force, etc.) just in case someone gets wise.
Anyway, please let us know once you run this. I'd like to hear how it goes. It's quite possible it might be a completely different type of experience than when I ran it- I'd like to know.
Well, I'm still not 100% convinced I'm going to do this, and still need to read through the adventure front to back, but I think I've figured out how to get it into the AP.
Tenser's Teleportation Anchor
This 10' wide circular carpet has a intricate blue spiral pattern woven into it. When activated it acts as a combination teleportation circle, dimensional anchor, contingency and death's door spell. It creates a two-way teleportation circle, much like a gate. However this gate only works when both ends are on the same plane, like two linked teleport circles.
When the carpet is activated, anyone who steps into the circle is anchored to the originating side of the circle via an invisible cord, not unlike the silver cord of an astral traveler. Those who step into the circle are instantly transported to the destination end of the teleportation circle. The location of the destination must be known to the person who activates the device.
The duration of the teleportation circle is 420 minutes, or 7 hours (the same duration of a teleportation circle cast by a 21st level wizard with the Extend Spell Metamagic feat). Note that this duration only starts when the first person enters the circle. Therefore, the activation, and hence the selection of the destination, can be done at any time prior to the usage.
At any point in time, prior to the end of the teleportation circle's duration, anyone who has been anchored can wish to be transported back to the origin point. Also, if an anchored character drops to -9 hp and is about to drop to -10, or if an anchored character dies or otherwise drops to -10 due to a single attack (i.e. without first being at -9) the contingency kicks in. Finally, when there is one minute left in the duration of the teleportation circle, the contingency also kicks in.
In any of the above cases, the contingency is as follows: the affected character and all his belongings he carries with him immediately become incorporeal. As soon as he becomes incorporeal, the character is brought back to the site of destination side of the anchor via the shortest possible path, through any corporeal barrier by an immediate contraction of the invisible cord. Note that unless an obstacle would harm or impair the movement of the incorporeal character, it will not affect this return trip. When that character is brought back to the destination point, he is transported immediately back to the point of origin through the teleportation circle. Finally, if any character is brought back due to being at -9 hp and is dying, that character is healed for 1 hp (brought to -8 hp) and is stabilized. However, the contingency cannot prevent death. If a character dies without first being at -9 hp the contingency will bring the corpse back to the originating teleport circle but it will not save the character's life. Upon traveling through the teleportation circle all incorporeal objects become immediately corporeal.
The range of the anchor has no limit, however the speed with which the incorporeal character is pulled back to the teleportation circle is 210' per round. Given that the anchor begins pulling the characters back only 1 minute before the teleportation circle dispels, the effective range, at least at the end of the spell, is 2100 ft. If the character is far enough away that the anchor cannot bring him back to the teleport circle when it closes, the anchor is snapped and the character is stuck on the far side of the circle. He must find another way home.
If at any time during the duration of the circle, the character travels to another plane or is teleported to another location on the same plane, the anchor is severed, and the character cannot activate or be affected by any of the contingencies as above. However, as long as the character physically returns to the location of the teleportation circle prior to the end of the spell's duration, he can still use the circle to return to the point of origin.
Note that for each usage of the circle, any single character can only travel once through it and back again. Once a character returns through the circle, he cannot go back through it a second time. Also, no one who has not gone through from the originating point can return through from the destination.
Neither the invisible anchor line, nor the destination teleportation circle can be seen by natural means. However magical sight, such true seeing, or a detect magic spell can allow the caster to see or detect the presence of either the circle or the cord. Either the cord or the destination circle can be disrupted by a successful Dispel Magic check against a 21st level caster. If the chord is dispelled, then the effect is the same as if the anchor was severed as above. The character can return to the destination circle as above. If the circle is dispelled, however, the cords and circle vanish, and all spell effects cease. The transported characters must find another way back to their point of origin.
The circle can only be activated once per year.
This item will have been leant to Eligos by Tenser for this explicit purpose, but the party won't know this at this point. If the ToH gets too deadly it will provide a way out, and also puts them on the clock. Since this adventure is mostly there to add flavor to the AP I don't want a TPK. I don't think that would be fair.
There is no way this item would hold up to superstar scrutiny, but I think it will do. If anyone has any comments, i'd be interested to hear them.
Greg
Well, we're in the middle of it now. I've completely revamped my thoughts on running this, and everything I wrote above has been tossed in the bin. They are getting there and back via simple teleport circles, and the only time limit is their meeting in a week with Eligos in which he will introduce them to Celeste prior to the start of the games.
Its gone rather swimmingly so far. The 2 false entrances and the main entrance hallway have gone slowly, but not as bad as I thought. Once they realized that there are traps nearly everywhere, they started searching each step forward. It sounds slow, but when you just roll dice, it's not too bad. By the time they got halfway down the main hallway, they just started taking 20 and that really sped things up.
And, in the end, I've had my first (and I hope only) victim to the green devil's gaping maw. Since my main goal was to expose them to this one trap, I'd consider this quite the success. And the player who's monk succumbed took it incredibly well. He laughed as I asked him to hand over his character sheet.
They've been given the option of continuing or quitting by their sponsor (now the head priestess of Pelor in Greyhawk) and surprisingly they want to continue onward.
So we'll see. They now know how deadly this is, and yet they are choosing to go forward so I don't have any worries anymore. They may all die, but they will be quite well on their guard.
Greg
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Resurrected this thread as I'm working up an AoW campaign and also want to insert the Tomb of Horrors (in lieu of the expanded whispering cairn). Once they enter the portal, it will transport them to the inner hall of the tomb, with a naked Allustan within. Allustan had retrieved a "portal key" from the other side that allows one to make a return trip only to have lost it (he attempted teleportation and wound up in this state).
Of course, his gear is now in the finale room of the tomb along with the portal key necessary to escape. I'm debating inserting a "timer" in the form of an outside event (more gloom and doom on Diamond Lake) so that the party does not avail itself of infinite rest time.
By completing the Tomb, the party will (later) know exactly where to go to get the Sphere should they wish to do so.
Note that - unlike the written description in the ToH module - a Sphere of Annihilation does _not_ detect as Evil, nor as an item with magic from the Necromancy school (according to 3.5's DMG, as well as Pathfinder, it's Transmutation).