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We noticed this the other day when a Player wanted to make an Aasimar as a PC (I just killed her last PC ;).
And the Aasimar has a +2 to two Abilities but no -2.
And (along with the Tiefling) Resistance 5 to THREE Energies.
This is NOT balanced with the other Races!
Aasimar are not balanced with core races, because they are not meant to be core races. See also: Kobolds.
The rules for non-standard races in Bestiaries are there primarily to allow NPC creation. Playing them as a PC races is firmly DIY territory, as Pathfinder got rid of LA and doesn't pay much attention to the subject (mostly because LA was a pretty crap idea to begin with).
So it's not "bad design", it's "different design philosophy".
The two Aasimar abilities are both mental stats, which is the only race I've seen where that is the case. But it means it's actually not a huge draw for most classes besides maybe a Cleric who wants to channel. Overall, the race isn't particularly overpowered.
I can't wait for the Ultimate Races book.
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Somewhere in Council of Thieves AP (which I don't have, so I don't know much about specifically), there are guidelines for a special trait that slightly reduces the advantages of being a Tiefling, to make it fit into a human/elf/dwarf/etc. party.
I've made my own verisons of such traits for Suli, and that seems like it would be a good 'fix' for any issues one might have with Aasimar balance, just require them to take a special trait that modifies their Aasimar abilities to bring them down a notch.
And the Aasimar has a +2 to two Abilities but no -2.
They don't need a -2 because their other racial features aren't that good. But if it bugs you just give it a -2 to something. Honestly a -1 penalty to a few things isn't going to bother someone who took the race to get a +1 to a few different things.
And (along with the Tiefling) Resistance 5 to THREE Energies.
Don't overvalue resistance. Resistance 5 is a power that starts weak (when fewer enemies use those damage types) and ends weak (when resistance 5 is not something you care about any more).
Daylight is a crappy option. The only real features that an Aasamar gets are +2 to Diplomacy and Perception and Darkvision (which every third creature gets).
The "hardy" dwarven racial feature is better than the Resistances by leaps and bounds. Dwarves also have darkvision, skill bonuses, and other racial features.
This is NOT balanced with the other Races!
I think its fine. Human still seams better to me.
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The two Aasimar abilities are both mental stats.
This is what we saw, too, and wondered what that was all about. We went back and forth positing possible reasons but, for me at least, I can't think of a single good design reason for doing it that way -- NOTHING else is.
EDIT: "I think of a good reason..."
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Yeah! It's like they weren't even designed to be a PC race!
Yeah, I'm not sure you get what I'm saying, here -- maybe it wasn't as obvious as I thought it would be -- my bad.
When looking at the Races in the Bestiary that have a "(Race) as a PC" block and a CR that, in theory, makes them equal to the Races in the Core, Aasimar is badly designed.
Now, the first thing we see, and I probably should have included this in my OP, is that Aasimar is CR 1/2 not 1/3 -- Huge.
Still, comparing that to the Tiefling one must ask, "WTF?!"
See here
Breaking down the aasimar...
negate -2 penalty = 4 points
darkvision = 2 points
+2 diplomacy = 1 point
+2 perception = 1 point
daylight 1/day = 2 points
resistances = 6 points?
I'm just guessing on the point value for the resistances, but if it weren't for those, the aasimar would be perfectly budgeted at 10 points.
They don't have any racial trait alternatives though, nor are there aasimar-specific trait/feats or favored class alternatives. It's not that bad...
When looking at the Races in the Bestiary that have a "(Race) as a PC" block and a CR that, in theory, makes them equal to the Races in the Core, Aasimar is badly designed.
No, It has No HD by itself. Like the Kobold or the Goblin or the Hobgoblin ( who also gets a total +4) they need a class of some type.
They are not made to be a player race and are not balanced with such in mind.
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Yeah! It's like they weren't even designed to be a PC race!Yeah, I'm not sure you get what I'm saying, here -- maybe it wasn't as obvious as I thought it would be -- my bad.
When looking at the Races in the Bestiary that have a "(Race) as a PC" block and a CR that, in theory, makes them equal to the Races in the Core, Aasimar is badly designed.
There is no "PC" block in the bestiary.
There is an "Aasimar Characters" section for developing NPCs though. The bestiary listings are not designed for PC use (though many of them work fine as they are).
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They don't need a -2 because their other racial features aren't that good.
Man, I'm not sure that I see it that way at all.
I would LOVE to have a PC with two +2s, Energy Resistance 5 in three energies, and, some added stuff, +2 on two Skills and Daylight once a day. It seems considerably better than the other Races.
When You put Frost or Shock or Flaming on a weapon it is pretty much useless against the Aasimar. Plus, your Aasimar Sorcerer or Oracle is gonna have considerably better Ability Scores.
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But even if the Aasimar is supposed to be better than the Core Races (CR1/2 instead of 1/3 -- a poor design choice), it's still better than the Tiefling which is EXACTLY the same as an Aasimar in Fluff.
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Yeah! It's like they weren't even designed to be a PC race!Yeah, I'm not sure you get what I'm saying, here -- maybe it wasn't as obvious as I thought it would be -- my bad.
No, I was being snarky, and you're not getting what I am saying - that's my bad.
You're judging aasimar as though they are intended for PCs. They're not. They are not "in theory" equal to the core races; in fact, they are explicitly not equal.
Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind...
So judging them as PCs - and particularly calling them "badly designed" - is utterly ignoring the designers' actual intent and goals. You've got it backwards, and it's really not their fault.
[
Even still, the Aasimar shouldn't be better than Tiefling -- it should be identical. And it IS, except for the -2 to an Ability score.
But ya see they are not the same. Tieflings are Humans whose family line has been corrupted by something from the lower planes.
Aasimar however are Blessed with blood of the upper planes, they are more or less paragon Humans.
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The reason their ability scores are a little off kilter is to make up for the rest of their racial abilities absolutely SUCKING.
A daylight spell-like ability is next to useless (especially when you have darkvision already) and the energy resistance is too small to be terribly meaningful at any level.
As has been said, their biggest benefits are the unusual ability scores, darkvision, and native outsider type.
I sincerely hope they, and other Bestiary races, aren't "neutered for play" in the upcoming races guide.
Man, I'm not sure that I see it that way at all.
Fair enough
I would LOVE to have a PC with two +2s, Energy Resistance 5 in three energies, and, some added stuff, +2 on two Skills and Daylight once a day. It seems considerably better than the other Races.
It seems considerably weaker to me but, again, fair enough.
When You put Frost or Shock or Flaming on a weapon it is pretty much useless against the Aasimar. Plus, your Aasimar Sorcerer or Oracle is gonna have considerably better Ability Scores.
About the frost weapons thing I say...huh? It's a d6. I'm not too worried about it. Your still taking almost all the damage from the attacks that matter.
About the sorcerer thing I say...seems fair.
But even if the Aasimar is supposed to be better than the Core Races (CR1/2 instead of 1/3 -- a poor design choice), it's still better than the Tiefling which is EXACTLY the same as an Aasimar in Fluff.
Yes, Tieflings are weak. IMHO both mechanically uninteresting and not particularly good.
And I think 2 points for no -2 is too low.
Removing a -2 is 4 points, not 2.
There is an "Aasimar Characters" section for developing NPCs though.Hmmm, maybe that's where I'm wrong.
It says "(Race) as Character" I figure it means PC not NPC.
Even still, the Aasimar shouldn't be better than Tiefling -- it should be identical. And it IS, except for the -2 to an Ability score.
Why does have to be equal? I see no reason for that. They don't have to mirror opposites of each other.
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The main reason the Aasimar is not balanced is cause when WoTC converted it to 3.x they forgot to or intentionally left off the racial negative.
The original 2nd racial stats mod: -2 CON, +1 WIS, +1 CHR, which in 3.x conversions would equate to a -4 CON, +2 WIS, +2 CHR.
I don't have my 2nd Edition Planeswalkers Handbook with me right now, but I do remember an option, that allowed the play to trade the CHR stat increase for a STR stat increase.
While am at it the Tiefling wasn't converted correctly either, the original racial stat mod: -1 STR, +1 INT, -1 WIS, +1 CHR, which in 3.x conversion would have been -2 STR, +2 INT, -2 WIS, +2 CHR.
Most playable races originally had a net gain to Stats of +0 and they didn't differentiate based on physical and mental back then.
Since the only open content is the 3.x stuff, are friends at paizo might be sum what limited in their conversions, of course I may be entirely off based with this comment and I'm sorry.
they didn't differentiate based on physical and mental back then....other than Strength.
I can tell you that a +1 to strength did not not get a -1 to two different stats in 2ed.
Now in 3.x yes, but that is not the time period my comment was meant for.
@Voska,
Aasimar is human with Celestial ancester.
Tiefling is human with Fiendish ancester.I D E N T I C A L
Nope. Nothing says they have to be equal or it is bad design though. They are close enough though, and since it is for the GM first and player second I see no reason to make them exactly equal. All of the core races are not equal, and they should be equal before any race that is not expected to see standard play. All CR equivalent monsters are not equal either. I see no bad design.
I don`t find the Aasimar over-powered at all. Compared to any race.
Pretty much the only Class that +2 to WIS and CHA heavily synergizes with is a Caster/Channeler/non-melee Cleric...
And having daylight as a Racial is pretty much the least beneficial since they have it on their spell-list.
Aasimar Sorcerors or Oracles DON`T have higher Casting Stat than anybody who can put a Racial +2 into CHA
(i.e. Human, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, Halflings, Gnomes from Core)
Human Cleric will have the same Racial +2 in one of those, and has an extra Feat for extra Channel, focused Channel, or Spell Focus, etc.
I have never seen min-maxers gravitate towards Aasimar, even for Clerics much less anything else, as opposed to Dwarves, Humans, and even Elves for Spell Resistance. Probably the `worst` aspect of both Aasimar and Tieflings is the Darkness/Daylight, which can give broader abilities than a party would otherwise have at low levels, but beyond low levels it really isn`t an issue. I would say that Suli are worse-balanced than Aasimar or Tieflings, but they were basically in the very first PRPG product before the Core Rules were even published or available to the writer even... I think the Daivrat from the same book is rather seriously UNDERPOWERED, as the other side of the coin.
I've had Aasimar characters in my games several times, and they've always seemed balanced with the Core-race PCs.
The only change I tend to make is to replace the Outsider type with Humanoid (this is the change recommended in the 3.5 Player's Guide to Faerun to bring Aasimar and Tiefling in line with the regular races).
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@ Quandary,
Certainly, "unbalanced" does not have to equal "broken."
The Aasimar as it is ain't much more than a dwarf, elf or human.
It was easy enough for me to adjust in my own game to make it seem equitable for me. I gave the Aasimar a -2 to CON and took away Resistance Cold and Fire so that she only has Resistance Lightning.
Tieflings are considerably better then Aasimar in Pathfinder for pretty much anything other then a channeling cleric or celestial sorceror. The article from Council of Thieves pretty much cemented that.
Suli is another good race +Str +Cha, good resistances, skill bonuses, and the ability to throw 1d6 of an element of your choice for 1 round/level once a day....
Really, they're not much better then the original suite of classes, people just tend to under-appreciate the abilities of the base races.
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Yeah! It's like they weren't even designed to be a PC race!Yeah, I'm not sure you get what I'm saying, here -- maybe it wasn't as obvious as I thought it would be -- my bad.
When looking at the Races in the Bestiary that have a "(Race) as a PC" block and a CR that, in theory, makes them equal to the Races in the Core, Aasimar is badly designed.
There is no "PC" block in the bestiary.
There is an "Aasimar Characters" section for developing NPCs though. The bestiary listings are not designed for PC use (though many of them work fine as they are).
This is a distressingly common misconception, isn't it?
NPCs are characters. The "... as Characters" blocks are intended as a GM tool for those races that most frequently feature as monsters with class levels. This has absolutely nothing to do with Player characters.
I wouldn't shed a tear if the Bestiary III added the word "Non-Player" before "Characters" in all instances of this kind of block. I tire of the sense of entitlement it evokes in players who scour the Bestiaries (and shame on them for that anyway).
I gave the Aasimar a -2 to CON and took away Resistance Cold and Fire so that she only has Resistance Lightning.
Well, I would say that change makes them pretty much inferior to all the Core races, including Half-Elves (at least post-APG options). /shrug
I DO agree that sub-type should be Humanoid, being immune to Humanoid-targetting effects is just too disruptive to the game.
targetting effects is just too disruptive to the game.
expecially after seeing giant being vulnerable to them now.
Why I ask. WHY.
hahahahaha 8-D
hahahahaha 8-D
It's extreme agreement or extreme disagreement?
I gave the Aasimar a -2 to CON and took away Resistance Cold and Fire so that she only has Resistance Lightning.Well, I would say that change makes them pretty much inferior to all the Core races, including Half-Elves (at least post-APG options). /shrug
I DO agree that sub-type should be Humanoid, being immune to Humanoid-targetting effects is just too disruptive to the game.
That I think is a problem. But remember if you want to play something like a tiefling magus you cannot benefit from enlarge person that way. No charm person hold person or daze.
Core races are good because they changed from 3.5, most of the monster races are the same as 3.5 save the skill titles. Maybe in Ultimate Races they will change up some of the monster races. Look at the Goblin, -2 str, +4 dex, -2 cha, fast, darkvision, +4 to two skills, small. Only major change is +2 dex, and skill title changes. Aasimar are pretty much copy paste from 3.5.
hahahahaha 8-DIt's extreme agreement or extreme disagreement?
Not really about agreement/disagreement, but just recognizing the anguish in a major change. That definitely affects CR and role for Giants, I agree. I would say that, for example, Half-Giant PC races who weren`t Humanoids would have the same issue for me. Yes, there is positives and negatives to some extent (mostly just immunity/benefit unless you really need to get Enlarge Person, which only certain classes tend to like), but it feels like an un-necessary imposition especially on low-level game balance.
I had a player want to play an Aasimar and to add a bit of balance I had him use one of his starting traits to account for it.
Brilliant.
@Quandary: the elemental and expecially the giant thing stroke me as unnecessary, a possible complication (and it is: hold person, as an example) and kills flavour.
If I start to homebrew heavily the game as planned , it's the first thing I will change back.
Creative Director
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Only the seven races in the Core Rulebook were designed specifically for player character race choices in mind, and thus only those seven races were specifically designed to be pretty balanced in options and rules.
The zero HD races from the Bestiary, like the aasimar, drow, tiefling, goblin, and kobold, were designed as monsters first. As such, some of them, like the aasimar and the drow and the tiefling, are indeed slightly more powerful than a human, while others, like the goblin or the kobold, are slightly LESS powerful than a human.
This is because it's good design to have multiple power level options for monsters.
The "Monsters as Characters" section is intended to work for NPCs, but since NPCs and PCs work exactly the same way, they also work for PCs as well. That's why we say "Characters" and not "Non-Player Characters" or "Player Characters." Further, since these zero HD races have no Hit Dice, they have to get their hit dice by taking class levels, be it in commoner or fighter or wizard or gunslinger or whatever. We provide a sample version, usually a first level warrior, but if you as the GM want to have the PCs fight or encounter a version of the creature with different classes and/or different levels, rather than force you to reverse engineer out all of the race stuff from the class stuff in the sample stat block, we provide the "Monster as Characters" paragraph so you can just start from the baseline and add any class you want.
It's basically the same type of thing and format we use for templates.
Now... you CAN use any zero HD race for a PC, because the rules work the same. But some of them are more powerful and others are less powerful. The Bestiaries are not intended to be player resources, though, and so we don't say much about how you can use these races as PCs—that's up to the GM to allow, and if he allows non-core races like that, he can make his own decisions on how to adjust the rules to bring them in line with the other classes.
Next spring, when the Advanced Race Guide is out, there will be a lot more options and advice for how to handle less powerful and more powerful zero HD races as player character options.
For now, though, those races that show up in Bestiaries are there because they're monsters first. If you allow them as PCs, handle with care.
(One relatively easy way to address the power gap is to grant core races a bonus feat of their choice if you allow other players to play more powerful things like aasimar. Likewise, if you allow a player to play a weaker race in a predominantly core party, you might want to give those goblins or kobolds an extra feat to bring them up to par with the humans and elves.)
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Creative Director
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As for the concept that aasimars and tieflings should be "equal," that's not Paizo's design philosophy. Just as we don't strive to make sure all the outsider races have equality in number across opposing alignments (there's no evil analogy/reverser to the angel category, for example, and no good analogy/reverse for the qlippoth), we don't necessarily feel bound to make all versions of similarly themed creatures identical.
Thus, aasimars and tieflings, while they might seem to be equal opposites, are in fact designed as if they were their own race without having to be defined by an "opposite." Especially since the alignment issue for these two is an illusion—aasimars and tieflings can be any alignment.