And what I mean by spellcaster is the more 'squishy' type. Not one that is stronger or has a good Escape Artist. At higher levels, you have means to fly and be invisible, which really lessens your chance, but it seems the last couple of sessions my lowly 3rd level Sorcerer has been grabbed. I usually in the past have done a good job of keeping away.
So what are suggestions? Are there options once you are grappled? Like with an item? Or a worthwhile spell to cast that doesn’t have Somatic components?
And for higher levels, in that chance you do get grappled, what are the best means of escape with a spell/item?
Grease comes to mind. As do mind-affecting spells like charm person, command, etc. But generally, if you grapple a low-level caster, you're going to put him in a world of hurt. Need to think about this a bit more.
Oh, the topic has been created twice. I'll repost my thoughts here, so we have everything in one place.
The Shift school power of the Conjuration (Teleportation) school is the best choice for wizards. It's a supernatural ability, so no concentration required and it doesn't have any components. Unless you are within an anit-magic field or hit with a dimensional anchor it get's you out of any grapple 3+INTMOD times per day as a swift action.
Other than that, you can try to cast dimension door or tleport to get out of the grapple. These require a concentration check, though. If you have at least a tiny chance of escape (by investing ranks into escape artist or otherwise), casting grease on your armor/robe would give you a nice +10 bonus to escape the grapple. Grease requires concentration, too. But as it is a level 1 spell, you should have a better chance than with teleport. Combat Casting helps with that, too.
Try the Liberating Command spell from the Andoran Players Companion - it's a 1st level spell, verbal component, immediate action, allowing you to make an Escape Artist check to escape with a competence bonus on the check equal to twice your caster level.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
As for the Teleport idea, I brought that up to my GM when we were playing 3.5 and he said since the creature was part of the same square and was ‘willing’, he would come with me. I’m pretty sure he would rule Dimension Door would do the same (if I tried to step through, he’d come with me).
Now, as I said, this was in 3.5, and I don’t have access to how the Teleport spell reads in 3.5 at the moment. I know in Pathfinder it does say “you may also bring…” so maybe he would allow it in PF (when I eventually get Teleport).
In regards to Grease, that would seem useful, but it unfortunately requires a Somatic component, which you can’t do while being grappled.
I like that Liberating Command. Not sure if my GM will allow it, as it is part of a supplemental for Golarian. But he very well might.
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
As for the Teleport idea, I brought that up to my GM when we were playing 3.5 and he said since the creature was part of the same square and was ‘willing’, he would come with me. I’m pretty sure he would rule Dimension Door would do the same (if I tried to step through, he’d come with me).
Note that in Pathfinder, you no longer share a square with someone you are grappling.
Ohh, interesting. We’ve been playing that wrong. Now that would make a difference. Thanks for that.
If you look at the subject line, I did put in the parenthesis “besides avoidance”. I am aware the best option is not to get grappled in the first place, but the question was asked in the case I am grappled.
I asked the question because I am already aware my options are very limited, no need to reiterate that. If you have a suggestion, then please post it, however, and not to sound rude, but don’t tell me what I already know.
Oh, and to add, where you are correct the original question does deal with a low level Sorcerer, I did later in the post ask what people also felt as good options for higher level casters (specifically Sorcerers).
You might consider the Defensive Combat Training feat...but at 3rd level, the benefits are minor, at best.
The simple truth is that, as LazarX has already stated, grabbing/grappling is a "silver bullet" against a low-level arcane caster. (And rightfully so, given what a high-level caster is capable of. You SHOULD have to earn it, at least a little.)
Your very best bet (and I know how typical this answer is for me) is INTELLIGENT PLAY...a technique that there is absolutely no substitute for. Regardless of your alignment, fight dirty. Use terrain, use cover, use your sturdier friends. If you're excluding avoidance as a viable tactic, then you are screwed.
P.S. You might consider the possibilities of alchemy...at the level you describe, a tanglefoot bag will gentle down even the nastiest grapplers that you are likely to encounter. (Unless, of course, your DM thoroughly understands that "DM" stands for "D*ck Move"...in which case, Best of Luck!)
And for higher level casters, my favourite tactic for avoiding a grapple is Elemental Body...consider, for a moment, the idea of wrestling with a Fire Elemental.
As I said, I usually have done well in avoiding being grappled in the past. Although when I have played spellcasters before, I would stick with longer range spells. I decided to take Color Spray and therefore be a little more aggressive this time around. And where it has worked out more times than not, there has been that occasion where it has put me in a predicament to be grappled. Fortunately it has only happened a few times.
And to Lazar, again, didn’t mean to come across as an *ss or rude, but I understand that my options are limited as a caster, and especially a Sorcerer when grappled. That’s why I posed the question.
But thanks for the idea of Defensive Combat Training!
In regards to Grease, that would seem useful, but it unfortunately requires a Somatic component, which you can’t do while being grappled.
Get a Wand ;) Or even start any combat greased when you fear you'll be grappled.
I'm not a big fan of defensive combat training. Your CMD will still suck because you have no strength (maybe even a penalty) and slighly above average Dex at best. Defensive Combat Training might allow you to avoid a grapple or two when fighting humaoids, but anyting more monstrous will grapple you anyway.
Ok, then I pose the question, with a couple other people recommending the Teleport spell, and now Ike suggesting the Helm of Teleportation, are you able to teleport away without the person grappling you (in PF)? Since they don’t share the same space?
My GM rules that since they are willing (to keep the grapple), the creature goes with you. But is that incorrect?
And to Blave, yes, I could get a wand of Grease, but then I’d have to get out (while being grappled) and isn’t there a large negative in trying to use the wand when grappled? I guess I could start the combat greased, but was really looking for options after I got grappled.
Ok, then I pose the question, with a couple other people recommending the Teleport spell, and now Ike suggesting the Helm of Teleportation, are you able to teleport away without the person grappling you (in PF)? Since they don’t share the same space?
My GM rules that since they are willing (to keep the grapple), the creature goes with you. But is that incorrect?
You cast the spell, not the grappler. So YOU decide its target (or targets). It's up to you to bring them along or nor. I don't know the 3.5 rules, but in Pathfinder I can't find any rule that would imply you have to bring anyone with you.
And to Blave, yes, I could get a wand of Grease, but then I’d have to get out (while being grappled) and isn’t there a large negative in trying to use the wand when grappled?
No, you still have one hand free, even when grappled (which kinda makes me wonder why you can't cast somatic spells to begin with, but whatever). Retrieving the wand should be a move action, activating it (i.e. poining it in your direction and speaking the command word) is a standard action. I see no reason why it wouldn't work.
With my wizard, I just put ranks in Escape Artist. Sure they're cross-class, but all you miss out on is the +3 and your skill check rapidly outpaces your CMB. Makes escaping grapples a lot easier. Just click my name to see the character sheet (he is now level 9).
Spells like dimension door are also very handy for when something with a truly humongous grapple check gets its mitts on you. And yes, YOU choose the targets when you cast it. You don't bring the grappler with you unless you want to. If your GM insists on making the grappler come with you anyway, just make your destination in a square directly next to your party's biggest, scariest melee badass. Then the grappler has two choices: Let go and get away from the meatgrinder, or continue grappling you and get pulverized.
Because it's a classic trope, and frequently a suicidal move for the would-be hitchhiker, I allow it.You cast the spell, not the grappler. So YOU decide its target (or targets). It's up to you to bring them along or nor. I don't know the 3.5 rules, but in Pathfinder I can't find any rule that would imply you have to bring anyone with you.
Classic or not, there nothing in he rules to support it. Can't argue with GM fiat or houserules but by RAW, it's just wrong.
All of you bring up good points on that I decide who comes with, not the grappler. But I just wasn’t sure if I missed something in RAW where it indicates that they (the grappler) came along.
Will have to bring it up to my GM for when my Sorcerer is higher level (and has Teleport).
(which kinda makes me wonder why you can't cast somatic spells to begin with, but whatever).
You *can* cast spells with somatic components in a grapple in Pathfinder.
It's beating 10 + opponent's CMB + spell level that can be quite rough.
I also highly recommend Defensive Combat Training.
It's not a wizard spell, but Command is available to witches. As a verbal-only spell it is castable from Grapple, just a matter of making the Concentration check. The 'Flee' command is good enough to get you away from the grappler for a couple of rounds (one round spent fleeing, the other coming back). Again, because of the concentration check it's not ideal, but if you have Combat Casting or a trait to bump up your concentration it should be doable.
Oh, and I'll throw my vote behind those disagreeing with the DM on the teleportation thing. On the other hand, you can turn it around on him. If the grappler is willing to come along, that's all fine and good but you still control the destination. At the very least you can teleport to somewhere near your allies. Can you deliberately put him in a solid object? Or at the top of a very tall tower with you on the inside of a barred window, him on the outside? The DM's given you a lemon. Time to make creative lemonade.
(which kinda makes me wonder why you can't cast somatic spells to begin with, but whatever).You *can* cast spells with somatic components in a grapple in Pathfinder.
It's beating 10 + opponent's CMB + spell level that can be quite rough.
Oh wow, another thing that I missed.
Although with that formula, wouldn’t have mattered anyways in the times I’ve been grappled. :)
You *can* cast spells with somatic components in a grapple in Pathfinder.
Nope.
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
Oh, and I'll throw my vote behind those disagreeing with the DM on the teleportation thing. On the other hand, you can turn it around on him. If the grappler is willing to come along, that's all fine and good but you still control the destination. At the very least you can teleport to somewhere near your allies. Can you deliberately put him in a solid object? Or at the top of a very tall tower with you on the inside of a barred window, him on the outside? The DM's given you a lemon. Time to make creative lemonade.
Just to clarify, our GM wasn’t making this ruling to be a d*ck, it just wasn’t clear (to us) if I had the option to bring the grappler with or not, so he made a ruling in favor of bringing the grappler with.
And in regards to your suggestion, I did something similar (in our 3.5 campaign), I teleported near our Paladin and Barbarian (both 16th level).
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Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
So that's where that is coming from. I wonder if the grappling part of that is just an accidental holdover from 3.5, since it's not mentioned at all in the grappled condition. It *is* mentioned in the pinned condition.
The Grease spell has already been mentioned.
I'll add that it makes a fine potion or oil.
Grappling or Pinned: The only spells you can cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.So that's where that is coming from. I wonder if the grappling part of that is just an accidental holdover from 3.5, since it's not mentioned at all in the grappled condition. It *is* mentioned in the pinned condition.
Note that the Grappled condition doesn't say that you can cast spells with somatic components. It just says that if you do cast a spell, you need to make a Concentration check. The Pinned condition adds that you cannot take anything but mental and verbal actions, which means that even if you had material components in hand you can't use them to cast.
I agree that it's a little confusing and annoying that the various restrictions are spread out in various places. That said, I don't think grappling is as confusing as everyone seems to, and I believe its a big improvement on the 3.5 method.
by RAW, it's just wrong.There's equally nothing in the rules to deny it. Paizo intentionally leaves a lot of things to GM discretion. This is one of them.
The teleportation spells all state
"You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature".
Which for me means 2 things:
1. You may extend the teleportaion to another creature. You are by no means forced to do so.
2. You bring them along. Not "they cling to you and are teleported as well".
No matter how often I read that sentence, I never get the idea that you are forced to take someone else with you. YMMV, of course.
Anyway, I just noticed that teleport won't work on creatures bigger than medium size. Since almost all dangerous grappling monsters are at least large, you should be able to get away from them without problems.
Anyway, I just noticed that teleport won't work on creatures bigger than medium size. Since almost all dangerous grappling monsters are at least large, you should be able to get away from them without problems.
Actually, you can bring larger creatures than Medium along, it's just that Large count as two Mediums, Huge counts as 4 Mediums, etc.
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Try the Liberating Command spell from the Andoran Players Companion - it's a 1st level spell, verbal component, immediate action, allowing you to make an Escape Artist check to escape with a competence bonus on the check equal to twice your caster level.
This is the best option, however be prepared to find yourself in a rules debate. Casting the spell (verbal only level 1 - every base spellcasting class can use) is an immediate action that allows the target to make a check to escape the grapple with a bonus as an immediate action.
Here's the problem:
Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn
and
You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take.
So if you cast the spell on yourself (not on your turn) you are using your immediate action, and don't have one available to make the check. If you cast it on your turn you have used your swift action. Some GMs will let you take a second swift action in place of your standard action, but RAW you can only take one.
So Liberating Command is GREAT for getting OTHER casters out of a grapple, debatable for yourself.
I might be wrong (I might be rembering a house rule), but I think this would make your grappler flat-footed, in which case, the best defense is for your party to gank him while he is hugging you.
A grappling creature has the grappled condition, which imparts a penalty to Dexterity but does not deny it's bonus -so no free sneak attacks on the grappler. You can flank him easily enough, however. Even while being grappled, as long as you have a light weapon in hand, you can provide flanking.
The wizard is rarely adventuring solo. People are missing the obvious solution: have another party member bull rush the target far enough that the grapple breaks once the wizard is out of reach.
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Or just have your friend Boris the Strong and Fierce kill the thing grappling you. You do have a fighter in your party, don't you?
The Grease spell has already been mentioned.
I'll add that it makes a fine potion or oil.
Wouldn't an oil of Grease just be, well....grease? :p
I'll second the blink spell or a Ring of Blinking for low levels. Can't grab something that suddenly isn't there. Has the nice side effect of making you immune to sneak attacks, too, while activated.
Mirror Image should do a good job of making sure you aren't grabbed in the first place, and displacement might help, too.
But yeah, once you are grabbed, your options are limited. Polymorphing into something that nobody wants to grapple (a L Porcupine?) would be cool, but mostly you want to blink or d door out of the grapple entirely if you can.
==Aelryinth
Best bet is liberating command out of ultimate combat
Good spell that keeps its viability forever because it is an immediate action cast
Also note that it is only a verbal component so no check required
School: transmutation
Level: Bard: 1; Cleric: 1; Oracle: 1; Druid: 1; Paladin: 1; Ranger: 1; Sorcerer: 1; Wizard: 1
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Components: V
Range: close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: one creature
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: yes (harmless)
Source: Ultimate Combat
Summary: Target makes an Escape Artist check as an immediate action and gains a bonus on it.
If the target is bound, grappled, or otherwise restrained, he may make an Escape Artist check to escape as an immediate action. He gains a competence bonus on this check equal to twice your caster level (maximum +20). This spell has no effect if the target could not get free by using the Escape Artist skill (for example, if he were under the effects of a hold person spell or paralyzed by Strength damage)
To follow up... even though escape artist may not be your forte... at low levels the d20 is the great equalizer and often the best option is to just throw more dice.
At 3rd level this spell gives you a check with a +6 as an immediate action... that coupled with your normal grapple check to escape should more than double your chances.
Emergency Force Bubble will also keep peeps from getting up in your business.