well in these cases perhaps it would be better to make a melee beast alchy instead of a bomber when using the archtypes since lower bomb die has no impact on a melee build.
the ferral mutgaen boosting STR is pretty much all you need to survive those low levels and be very effective.
But in that case the alchemist loses sneak attack.
sorry what ? sneak attack from what source Vivisectionist ? why can't they use sneak attack in melee ?
This is the one slight flaw I feel with most of the alchemist archtypes, the fact they randomly lower the bomb damage for no real reason other than the theoritical power increase in the abilities that replace the previous..
Something I kinda don't remember. Vivisectionist doesn't replace any other class features besides bombs does it?
Yes, the vivisectionist. Since both Archetypes modify the same class feature, they cannot be combined.But in that case the alchemist loses sneak attack.sorry what ? sneak attack from what source Vivisectionist ? why can't they use sneak attack in melee ?
No one brought the Vivisectionist up until you did.
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You have poisons, magic and lots of other abilities, your bombs dealing about a point less damage per die on average when you get to add an ability score modifier to it isn't seriously that big of a deal, is it?
I've done an alchemist before and I didn't really feel like it was a one trick bomb pony.
It isn't so much that though morgen its the whole idea of even Why do they change bombs to be weaker, and why is it that the only benifits happens way late in the characters levels.. while still replacing class features?
But for the most part, at level 1, you are pretty much a bomb pony. You don't really have poison, you don't have much magic. (Most combat "magics" for the alchemist are really 2nd level spells.)
And "Lots of other abilities" come later, and are still replaced by most archetypes.
Let's not forget that alchemists receive their Intelligence modifier to all alchemical weapons, not just their bombs (at least, last time I checked). That means that when your bombs run out, you grab a flask of acid (10 gp market value) and toss that sucker for 1d6+5 and 6 points of splash damage. Just for poops and giggles, you can even dual wield them, and toss a pair of them a round. even if you just manage to land them both within 5 feet of the target without hitting them, that's about 12 points of unavoidable acid damage.
EDIT: Meanwhile, d6s to d4s only lose an average of 1 damage per die, but in turn also get more stable damage. This means you will lose about 10 points of damage per bomb at higher levels. However, your damage will be more likely to remain steady (because the bottom and top of your damage is closer), meaning you can more easily estimate the effects of your bomb, which for some people is appealing.
All in all, most of the new alchemist archtypes I've seen look like they really give the alchemist more.
Actually its the Int bonus on splash weapons. Not all alchemical weapons are splash.
And that is only if you didn't take the internal alchemist.
Overall the biggest problem with lowering the damage on bombs like this is the prevention of being able to get multiple archtype.
Not lowering the bomb's damage seems like an easy case to argue if you really want to have multiple archetypes. Especially if you don't get much at the beginning for losing 1-2 points of damage per bomb!
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However, your damage will be more likely to remain steady (because the bottom and top of your damage is closer), meaning you can more easily estimate the effects of your bomb, which for some people is appealing.
These people might as well intentionally miss with their bombs to get absolutely predictable results. Seriously. 2d6 might be preferable over 1d12 for that reason, and 1d4+1 over 1d6, but losing 40% of your damage is an absurd price to pay for an effect as weak as predictability.
I do find the loss of bomb effectiveness very off-putting in those archetypes. Then again, I would most likely go for the Vivisectionist anyway, where I find the opposite happens: The bombs are replaced by a more powerful feature.
However, your damage will be more likely to remain steady (because the bottom and top of your damage is closer), meaning you can more easily estimate the effects of your bomb, which for some people is appealing.These people might as well intentionally miss with their bombs to get absolutely predictable results. Seriously. 2d6 might be preferable over 1d12 for that reason, and 1d4+1 over 1d6, but losing 40% of your damage is an absurd price to pay for an effect as weak as predictability.
I do find the loss of bomb effectiveness very off-putting in those archetypes. Then again, I would most likely go for the Vivisectionist anyway, where I find the opposite happens: The bombs are replaced by a more powerful feature.
Out of curiosity, how is it 40% of your damage? The average damage difference is 1. You're going from average damage 3.5 to average damage 2.5, meaning it's only about 22% lost on average damage per die. Now when you factor in your Intelligence modifier (as Int is definitely your key stat), you should sport at least a +10 by 20th level (if you began with a mere 14), which means your average damage would be 10d4+10 (average 35) vs 10d6+10 (average damage 45), which would only be about a 20% difference.
Unless you are counting the absolute maximum possible result of the dice, which becomes increasingly unlikely as you acquire additional damage dice. By time you have 10d6 bombs, the chance of you rolling 60 damage on a bomb from the dice alone is unlikely in the extremist of extremes.
Meanwhile, maybe they figured while the alchemist was off learning how to bottle lifeforms and monsters, bring dead things back to life, and so forth, maybe he put a little less focus on being a mad bomber. Either way, it seems like a fair trade off to me.
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Out of curiosity, how is it 40% of your damage? The average damage difference is 1. You're going from average damage 3.5 to average damage 2.5, meaning it's only about 22% lost on average damage per die. Now when you factor in your Intelligence modifier (as Int is definitely your key stat), you should sport at least a +10 by 20th level (if you began with a mere 14), which means your average damage would be 10d4+10 (average 35) vs 10d6+10 (average damage 45), which would only be about a 20% difference.
The impact from 7th level and higher is compensated by the new class ability. I think the complaint is that from 1st level through 6th level the character is getting no real benefit from their alternate class ability but taking the penalty.
An alchemist with a 17 INT (Normal versus Re-animator):
1st level - 6.5 versus 5.5 (15% less)
3rd level - 10 versus 8 (20% less)
5th level - 13.5 versus 10.5 (22% less)
7th level - 19 versus 15 (21% less)
(assumes a 20 INT at this point due to ability bump and headband)
So it's a pretty significant drop in damage but not 40% (and the reduction is less as a % with a higher INT). It's also worth noting that bombs secondary abilities are not lessened at all. Splash damage, DCs, etc are the same.
Seems to me it's an easy house rule to have the bomb damage not drop only when they get their first alternate class ability at 5th or 7th level.
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Yeah but does it really make sense that as you get more experienced you suddenly have weaker bombs? It doesn't really work unless they're always at that weaker state. Most games don't even run with some kind of training time between leveling up, even going so far to allow for it during a game day.
That'd be pretty odd, wondering through a dungeon and having your already created supply of bombs suddenly fizzle a little bit just because you finally figured something else out.
It'd make more sense from a whole actually playing a role-playing game perspective that you'd work hard towards something else because your bombs were never as good as they could be.
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For Psychonaut you would get it at fifth level, going from 4th to 5th level, your average damage would increase by .5 hp/ bomb. Reanimators and Clone masters going from 6th to 7th level damage would have bomb damage decrease an average of .5 hp/ bomb. (see the chart above)
It's essentially a compromise for folks who think having lowered bomb damage before they benefit from the archetype.
Personally, If I could have my way, I'd have a vivisectionist, surgon, Reanimator.
His reanimator would lower his sneak attack die to d4s (If I could) and make him skip those levels where he gains an ability and would skip bomb damage.
I'm all about taking apart things, sewing them back together and If they are dead.. making them not-so-dead.
Yep..
I could understand the shamans, as they get a pseudo wildshape at level 2.
But because you live in a cave, bloop.. lose wildshape until level 6 and suffer a lower level of it.