Creative Director
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Also a couple of related questions...
Would a band of heroes who go into the Abyss and kill off a demon lord and destroy his castle recieve the same level of reaction?
Also who enforces the divine rules?
Absolutely not. There's a huge difference between "a bunch of mortals" and "a powerful good goddess."
If it's a bunch of mortals, even if they're really high level... they're still just mortals. Demon lords are as a general rule more powerful than mortals, so they're not really all that concerned if some particularly brave or even powerful mortals come in and pick off one of their likely enemies. In fact, if it were a band of mortals who killed Aolar, the demon lords would probably have fallen to internal bickering as they fought to move in to her now-abandoned territory.
But when you have a full-fledged deity like Desna—someone who can wipe out a demon lord without much effort, coming into the Abyss and doing just that... THAT actually scares demons. They'd worry that it was the advance attack of some major invasion of the Abyss, or at the very least would realize that if Desna's just got it in her head to go from demon to demon to pick them off one at a time, they'd HAVE to band together. For their own protection. They'd have no way of knowing for sure that Desna's just after one demon lord, and they wouldn't have the luxury of assuming that, especially since good deities invading the Abyss is so unusual.
As for who enforces the "divine rules," that's not something mortals (including us) can really know about. Especially since we don't yet have actual game rules for how deities work.
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Creative Director
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You say Desna got out of everything mostly intact, implying she did in fact loose something. Is what she lost pointed out any where?
Not yet, no. She's pretty secretive about what the exact repercussions of her invasion were...
(I know, though... and that's not a secret that the time is yet right to reveal...)
Also a couple of related questions...
Would a band of heroes who go into the Abyss and kill off a demon lord and destroy his castle recieve the same level of reaction?
Also who enforces the divine rules?
Absolutely not. There's a huge difference between "a bunch of mortals" and "a powerful good goddess."
If it's a bunch of mortals, even if they're really high level... they're still just mortals. Demon lords are as a general rule more powerful than mortals, so they're not really all that concerned if some particularly brave or even powerful mortals come in and pick off one of their likely enemies. In fact, if it were a band of mortals who killed Aolar, the demon lords would probably have fallen to internal bickering as they fought to move in to her now-abandoned territory.
But when you have a full-fledged deity like Desna—someone who can wipe out a demon lord without much effort, coming into the Abyss and doing just that... THAT actually scares demons. They'd worry that it was the advance attack of some major invasion of the Abyss, or at the very least would realize that if Desna's just got it in her head to go from demon to demon to pick them off one at a time, they'd HAVE to band together. For their own protection. They'd have no way of knowing for sure that Desna's just after one demon lord, and they wouldn't have the luxury of assuming that, especially since good deities invading the Abyss is so unusual.
As for who enforces the "divine rules," that's not something mortals (including us) can really know about. Especially since we don't yet have actual game rules for how deities work.
Ok that is what I thought...was just asking to confirm it.
As for the enforcer...Just as long as his name is not two letter and both of them being vowels I should be good. ;)
You say Desna got out of everything mostly intact, implying she did in fact loose something. Is what she lost pointed out any where?Not yet, no. She's pretty secretive about what the exact repercussions of her invasion were...
(I know, though... and that's not a secret that the time is yet right to reveal...)
I am guessing this was before Lamashtu killed Desna's friend to become a god?
Maybe that was the price she paid?
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Ok that is what I thought...was just asking to confirm it.
As for the enforcer...Just as long as his name is not two letter and both of them being vowels I should be good. ;)
HA! No. We're not going to be doing any of the "even gods have gods" stuff that Forgotten Realms did. Not only because I'm kinda not a fan of that, but also because even if I were a fan, that's such a unique construct of the Forgotten Realms that I'd rather not ape it in Golarion. There's enough similarity between Golarion and Toril already, after all, that preserving certain elements of the Forgotten Realms as "solely" Forgotten Realms tropes is good for BOTH settings.
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You say Desna got out of everything mostly intact, implying she did in fact loose something. Is what she lost pointed out any where?Not yet, no. She's pretty secretive about what the exact repercussions of her invasion were...
(I know, though... and that's not a secret that the time is yet right to reveal...)
I am guessing this was before Lamashtu killed Desna's friend to become a god?
Maybe that was the price she paid?
Nope; this was well after that event.
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Creative Director
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You say Desna got out of everything mostly intact, implying she did in fact loose something. Is what she lost pointed out any where?Not yet, no. She's pretty secretive about what the exact repercussions of her invasion were...
(I know, though... and that's not a secret that the time is yet right to reveal...)
Thanks. I'm looking forward to finding out what it was.
Can you tell us if, knowing the cost, she would do it again (if she had it to do over)?
She absolutely would.
Nope; this was well after that event.You say Desna got out of everything mostly intact, implying she did in fact loose something. Is what she lost pointed out any where?Not yet, no. She's pretty secretive about what the exact repercussions of her invasion were...
(I know, though... and that's not a secret that the time is yet right to reveal...)
I am guessing this was before Lamashtu killed Desna's friend to become a god?
Maybe that was the price she paid?
Ok now I am curious of why she did not go after Lamashtu than?
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Ok now I am curious of why she did not go after Lamashtu than?
Lamashtu killed the guy she looked up to, and, unlike the demon lord she did later gank (perhaps as a trial run for the big battle to come? perhaps the demon lord was a favorite ally of Lamashtu, and this was something of a warning?), is now a big G god, and not just a demon-lord-with-benefits.
I suspect that Desna and Lamashtu have gained power, after the death of Curchanos, in roughly similar progressions, so that Desna has never been in a good position to be able to smack Lamashtu down with any reasonable chance of success.
She might hate Lamashtu, but just marching over and getting herself ganked, *and making Lamashtu even stronger* seems like an unwise move.
HA! No. We're not going to be doing any of the "even gods have gods" stuff that Forgotten Realms did. Not only because I'm kinda not a fan of that, but also because even if I were a fan, that's such a unique construct of the Forgotten Realms that I'd rather not ape it in Golarion. There's enough similarity between Golarion and Toril already, after all, that preserving certain elements of the Forgotten Realms as "solely" Forgotten Realms tropes is good for BOTH settings.Ok that is what I thought...was just asking to confirm it.
As for the enforcer...Just as long as his name is not two letter and both of them being vowels I should be good. ;)
For what it's worth, I consider the gods to be something akin to a bull in a china shop. sure, they CAN do a lot on the mortal plane. they can even do even more on the outer planes. But they've got a ton of power and if they aren't careful they can actually use too MUCH power and rip things up in ways mortals can't even comprehend.
it's not a perfect analogy mind you...but at least it makes sense as to why gods might create (relatively) low powered avatars and work through minions rather than taking a direct hand in things themselves.
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You say Desna got out of everything mostly intact, implying she did in fact loose something. Is what she lost pointed out any where?Not yet, no. She's pretty secretive about what the exact repercussions of her invasion were...
(I know, though... and that's not a secret that the time is yet right to reveal...)
Ooh! Let me guess what she lost...
Her birthday.
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Creative Director
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Ok now I am curious of why she did not go after Lamashtu than?Nope; this was well after that event.You say Desna got out of everything mostly intact, implying she did in fact loose something. Is what she lost pointed out any where?Not yet, no. She's pretty secretive about what the exact repercussions of her invasion were...
(I know, though... and that's not a secret that the time is yet right to reveal...)
I am guessing this was before Lamashtu killed Desna's friend to become a god?
Maybe that was the price she paid?
Because Lamashtu didn't do something that specifically hurt her religion. As detailed in "Lords of Chaos," Aolar defiled and possessed one of Desna's favorite high priestess, and used her to do some significant damage to that religion's reputation before retreating back to the Abyss with the priestess's soul in tow. Lamashtu may have slain a friend, but Aolar effectively slew one of her children. Big difference.
Oh, and also Lamashtu is a LOT LOT LOT stronger & tougher than a demon lord like Aolar was.
Oh, and also Lamashtu is a LOT LOT LOT stronger & tougher than a demon lord like Aolar was.
Not that such fine distinctions matter all that much to us mere mortals. Gods, goddesses and demon princes aren't exactly at our paygrade.
that said, the politics of all of the above are still rather interesting. I'm guessing it's a no-no to directly mess with the minds/bodies/souls of any deity's religion. Even Asmodeus doesn't go around personally tempting other people's major religious figures.
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As for who enforces the "divine rules," that's not something mortals (including us) can really know about. Especially since we don't yet have actual game rules for how deities work.
I would imagine that there's no single enforcer, that in this particular case it was a selection of the good gods who pulled Desna aside, explained to her the fact that the Abyss is infinite and Elysium is not, and if she gets enough of the demons angry enough, they could basically wipe Elysium off the Great Beyond.
The big difference is that Aroden defeated a demon lord that had invaded Golarion (he didn't actually KILL Deskari), whereas Desna marched into the Abyss and killed a demon lord in his own home, then burned his home down.
... with lemons?
Absolutely not. There's a huge difference between "a bunch of mortals" and "a powerful good goddess."
If it's a bunch of mortals, even if they're really high level... they're still just mortals. Demon lords are as a general rule more powerful than mortals, so they're not really all that concerned if some particularly brave or even powerful mortals come in and pick off one of their likely enemies. In fact, if it were a band of mortals who killed Aolar, the demon lords would probably have fallen to internal bickering as they fought to move in to her now-abandoned territory.
But when you have a full-fledged deity like Desna—someone who can wipe out a demon lord without much effort, coming into the Abyss and doing just that... THAT actually scares demons. They'd worry that it was the advance attack of some major invasion of the Abyss, or at the very least would realize that if Desna's just got it in her head to go from demon to demon to pick them off one at a time, they'd HAVE to band together. For their own protection. They'd have no way of knowing for sure that Desna's just after one demon lord, and they wouldn't have the luxury of assuming that, especially since good deities invading the Abyss is so unusual.
Apologies to everyone in advance for beating a dead horse (as in, replying to an old thread), but I kinda disagree with this notion, especially after seeing a mere mortal who managed canonically to kill an actual god (Tar-Baphon killed Arazni) and a demon lord managing to kill an actual god (Lamasthu got divinity by killing Curchanus) as well as other events that directly contradict this silly "I have a cooler title than you so you cannot kill me" non-sense that I see here (for example, a mention that Pazuzu almost killed the newly divine Lamashtu in the past despite the shift in power). If a mortal could kill a god (and player characters usually ARE very exceptional mortals), they should be able to kill demon lords and archdevils just as well. He might have been a lich, but Tar-Baphon was no Fiend nor God.
Apologies to everyone in advance for beating a dead horse (as in, replying to an old thread), but I kinda disagree with this notion, especially after seeing a mere mortal who managed canonically to kill an actual god (Tar-Baphon killed Arazni) and a demon lord managing to kill an actual god (Lamasthu got divinity by killing Curchanus) as well as other events that directly contradict this silly "I have a cooler title than you so you cannot kill me" non-sense that I see here (for example, a mention that Pazuzu almost killed the newly divine Lamashtu in the past despite the shift in power). If a mortal could kill a god (and player characters usually ARE very exceptional mortals), they should be able to kill demon lords and archdevils just as well. He might have been a lich,...Absolutely not. There's a huge difference between "a bunch of mortals" and "a powerful good goddess."
If it's a bunch of mortals, even if they're really high level... they're still just mortals. Demon lords are as a general rule more powerful than mortals, so they're not really all that concerned if some particularly brave or even powerful mortals come in and pick off one of their likely enemies. In fact, if it were a band of mortals who killed Aolar, the demon lords would probably have fallen to internal bickering as they fought to move in to her now-abandoned territory.
But when you have a full-fledged deity like Desna—someone who can wipe out a demon lord without much effort, coming into the Abyss and doing just that... THAT actually scares demons. They'd worry that it was the advance attack of some major invasion of the Abyss, or at the very least would realize that if Desna's just got it in her head to go from demon to demon to pick them off one at a time, they'd HAVE to band together. For their own protection. They'd have no way of knowing for sure that Desna's just after one demon lord, and they wouldn't have the luxury of assuming that, especially since good deities invading the Abyss is so unusual.
Such events that a 'creature' lower on the foodchain actually manages to defeat or threaten one higher up would be relatively rare and prone to exceptional circumstances. Tar-Baphon might have used an artifact or divine aid to level the playing field, neither is Tar-Baphon trully mortal, quite likely quite a bit closer to demi-god status than any other single mortal can claim to be. Likewise Pazuzu might be relatively close to ascenscion himself as one of the more powerful demon lords, he could be a threat to even a divine being in the right circumstances.
The books never mentioned Tar-Baphon wielding any artifacts or divine aid, so you cannot go and simply assume he did so canonically. If a "fact" is not mentioned, it's mostly likely because it doesn't exist (and is thus not a fact), and as such we can logically move on to the assumption that he was just badass enough a lich to kill a goddess. As for him not being trully mortal, rethink that. He was a lich, a stage of undeath that any mortal with enough magical talent could reach.
Also, Pazuzu is powerful but James Jacobs still said that the pecking order matters more in all but the most unusual circumstances.
Another limiting factor on the Abyss: the also potentially infinite CN natives of the Maelstrom view them as an abomination unto Chaos fit to be eradicated.
I can see The Abyss from my mote in the Maelstrom. The Abyss is actually a Klein bottle full of aging tequila or Old Janx Spirit... I forget which. It's still a little harsh drinking now, but it'll be ready fairly soon (at least by how the Axiomites count time). By then, we'll have collected enough Groetus tears for the salt, and the key lime-grenade stockpiles are building on schedule. It's gonna be one helluva Protean happy hour.
The books never mentioned Tar-Baphon wielding any artifacts or divine aid, so you cannot go and simply assume he did so canonically. If a "fact" is not mentioned, it's mostly likely because it doesn't exist (and is thus not a fact), and as such we can logically move on to the assumption that he was just badass enough a lich to kill a goddess. As for him not being trully mortal, rethink that. He was a lich, a stage of undeath that any mortal with enough magical talent could reach.
Also, Pazuzu is powerful but James Jacobs still said that the pecking order matters more in all but the most unusual circumstances.
I don't assume Tar-Baphon did, what I am saying is it is not a matter of Tar_Baphon being more powerful than Arazni, the only thing known is that he won, nobody ever said he played by the rules to win.
Being undead he was not trully mortal, such things might matter in a battle with the divine, Tar_Baphon is in my mind almost certain to possess a few artifact level items, it would not be unreasonable to think he might have used some of those resources in his battle with Arazni.
It's the same with Pazuzu, I rather not assume it was a straight up battle, because Pazuzu ought to be smacked down against a godess barring unusual circumstances.
See, now I'm spoiled for season 1 of 'Goddesses Gone Wild.'
Better than Charly's Angels, James Jacobs' Godesses !!
Hell, even with the spoiler, I would pay for that ...
@Remco
Assumptions are just that, merely assumptions. Aroden was smacking demigods and demon lords like a boss even before he had become a god (unless I'm mistaken about the times when he fought Ydersius and Deskari) and old Tarrie went TWO notches above the power hierarchy. Even WITH some artifacts, that shouldn't even be possible judging from the "Pazuzu would get murdered by Lamashtu in a fair fight" thing, even though Lamashtu is still bothered by Pazuzu's presence (she thinks fighting him is more important than fighting Desna, WHO IS A GODDESS).
Either way, I now instead ask this. If you were the DM and the players were around the same level as the demon lords, would you let them kill one or two of them off?
One of the greatest heroic deeds that would help Golarion would be to close off the Worldwound. But the last boss there is Deskari, a demon lord. Unless the players beat him and send him back to the Abyss, then they might as well go home and pray the Mendev Crusaders suddenly got a demigod on their side to help out because "it is not the affair of mere mortals"
First: I love this thread, it's awesome, especially James' input. Thanks!
A few notes, as I recall, based on things I found when I was looking up stuff for my own divine thesis previously (which still needs some tweaking):
Lamashtu didn't actually kill Curchanus by herself - she used a whole pack of demon lords swarming him to do so. Thus a deity being "killed" by "a demon lord" was more accurately "swarmed by demon lords to death, then finished off/eaten by one in specific" which makes more sense: a high level character might not be bothered with individual moderate-level characters, but if enough moderate-level characters work together, they can take down a high.
She and Pazuzu had been pretty tight before, but when she abused his trust in that way (as demons are wont to do), he returned the "favor" and basically sneak-attacked her while she was all busy being distracted by her new divinity to realize what was actually happening. Thus, she nearly got killed by a super-powerful non-divine being despite being divinity herself.
Tar-Baphon did have at least one artifact that I know of - his crown, made from the horns of a black dragon that allowed him to summon or conjure a black dragon (I don't remember the specifics). He was also an epic spell-caster, and a lich - two things that made him very fearsome indeed (I think James said he was somewhere below 30th?). It was quite possible that he even had more levels than Arazni, who, from what I understand, was a 25th level wizard (and/or some of Magus and/or Eldritch Knight, I dond' know if that's getting ret-conned due to her titles like "crusader" and "warrior"). So he did have (at least one) artifact(s) in his possession, was an epic caster, had numerous immunities by virtue of undead status, had the ability to come back from the dead with no penalties (save the inconvenience of lacking his items, and even then there are contengencies), and was extremely powerful regardless all this, as he fielded an entire country of orcs, undead, and undead orcs. Plus he was completely evil and utterly lacking in any code (as opposed to the chivalrous Arazni), and it was the first time in anything like that had been done*. Literally, it wasn't really within the realm of gods' thought-processes that such a thing could happen until then.
And, yeah, undead are, for all practical purposes, immortal, especially liches who literally get better with no penalty to themselves or relative power level and have no weaknesses (unlike vampires). Icyshadow, you argue that 20th levels are world-shakers (which they are, in the right circumstances), but so are 10th and 11th levels, if done right (and 11th level is the minimum it takes to become a lich). If compared to real-world capabilities, "we" (the planet earth) peak right around fifth level (maaaaaaayyyyyyybe sixth, if we push it), although, of course, comparing game-stuff to real world is silly, what our top-level athletes and scientists is roughly on terms of fifth level in game-capabilities using similar skills and progressions. Plus, as previously discussed, Tar-Baphon was epic. At that point the rules change. We don't know how, yet, as they've not been printed, exactly, but they certainly change.
And that's pretty much the entirety of the history of non-gods defeating gods (as far as we know; Zon-Kuthon could be another exception). That's, what, four or five exceptions throughout well over twenty-thousand years? I'd say the gods-as-effectively-invulnerable is a pretty solid stance.
Should have edited my post sooner. But at least now I'm saving space. So, tell me then, why does Lamashtu consider Pazuzu more of a threat to her than Desna? Desna is a full-fledged goddess, and actually HAS gone down to Abyss to smack some demons around, while Pazuzu is "merely" a demon lord.
Also, am I the only one here who supports the idea of player characters killing demon lords? I mean, that spoiler you showed only supports the notion that the heroes are exceptions like those four or five other people in the history of Golarion. Or at least, they should be treated as such.
Are you being nit-picky or are you asking that with honest intentions?
Killing Deskari or banishing him to the Abyss affects Golarion by cleansing the Worldwound. Thus, it only affects the world in that case.
But yeah, I still wonder why Abraxas should be left untouched...
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Are you being nit-picky or are you asking that with honest intentions?
Killing Deskari or banishing him to the Abyss affects Golarion by cleansing the Worldwound. Thus, it only affects the world in that case.
But yeah, I still wonder why Abraxas should be left untouched ** spoiler omitted **
Killing any demon lord alters the setting. There are followers, clerics who get spells, schemes in motion and power vacuums left to be filled.
That's kind of the point. Unless the bad guys are defeated, Golarion is doomed.
But nobody has still given an answer to one question: Should the players be able to kill demon lords or not?
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That's kind of the point. Unless the bad guys are defeated, Golarion is doomed. But nobody has still given an answer to one question: Should the players be able to kill demon lords or not?
Here's what James has to say on the matter. Bottom line is: nascent demon lords are "capstone" enemies for 1-20 campaigns, "full" demon lords would be appropriate opponents for epic/mythic/whatever post-20 gameplay, deities (Lamashtu included) are off limits.
Of course, it's your Golarion if that's not what you think how things should be.
Only really as a campiagn end boss is how I feel apropriate for killing demon lords.
Golarion is part of the multiverse.
Wouldn't killing Deskari also have effects on the abyss? Espicailly might give Lamashtu some effects to plot and maybe make a run for the world wound and take over. There also might be a new lord that comes up and tries to take the domain of wind demons.
Also the implication for mendev will be important. What will happen to the native Iobarians then if the worldwound collapses. I think there might be some of the overzealous witch hunters trying to kill them in genocide to stop another worldwound from opening up.
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Defeated does not necessitate death. Let's look away from the Abyss, and towards Abbadon. The Horsemen are generally assumed to be on the same level as some of the more powerful demon lords. But unlike demon lords, the Horsemen are NOT infinite in number...there are only four of them. So, in many ways, killing one of the Horsemen would have a wider effect on the campaign multiverse as a whole than killing some (or even many) of the gods. Take Iomaede, for example. She's only been a god for a fairly short time, and is most likely largely unknown beyond Golarion (and possibly even beyond the Inner Sea Region).
I do think that a demon lord could be a good end-boss in a campaign, though given exceptional circumstances, I could see someone allowing a demigod to be stopped and defeated by the player characters just as well. I am not sure how, but I think people got the image that I would let my players make a quick run through the Abyss to kill all of the demon lords one by one, which is not at all what I was saying (and sounds more like something a munchkin would do with a Pun-Pun build).
Also, I wonder if anyone ever thought of a campaign where the heroes would need to sneak past Lamashtu's demons and free Shemhazai, a celestial she happened to capture ages ago (I think I saw only one thread about him here somewhere). Of course, restoring him to his former glory after all his torture would be another epic quest in and of itself. Lastly, I think that if the players pass the Test of Starstone, nothing would/could really stop them from going up to Lamashtu and giving her a good kicking as well (what with both Desna AND Pazuzu already at her neck), but that's up to the DM (and I doubt that many player characters would even succeed in the test itself).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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More idle speculation...
We don't know what exactly happens when a being becomes a deity or when a deity dies for that matter.
Maybe the reason Lamashtu hates Pazuzu so much is that he knows/has something that could become a threat to her? Like her truename or an aspect of Curchanus (either as a portion of his power, or a binder type aspect).
Likewise, didn't Aroden elevate Aranzi to godhood? Maybe that left a weakness that could be exploited, or there was some aspect that she had Tar-Baphon could capitalize on (For example, again, a truename for Aranzi)
Think of what we (the players) have seen as the overview of WW II. The Allies beat the Axis, Lamashtu killed Curchanus. You have to dig deeper to find things like the resistance, the plot to blow up Hitler and Enigma to find what shaped the war. We don't know if Tar-Baphon had his own version of Enigma, or if Lamashtu had her own 'resistance movement' in Curchanus' followers.
And we don't know how much is propoganda. Remember the Scarred Lands? Initially the dark elves were raiders and traitors to their dwarven allies. It's not until Burrok Torn that the real story came out.
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Should have edited my post sooner. But at least now I'm saving space. So, tell me then, why does Lamashtu consider Pazuzu more of a threat to her than Desna? Desna is a full-fledged goddess, and actually HAS gone down to Abyss to smack some demons around, while Pazuzu is "merely" a demon lord.
Also, am I the only one here who supports the idea of player characters killing demon lords? I mean, that spoiler you showed only supports the notion that the heroes are exceptions like those four or five other people in the history of Golarion. Or at least, they should be treated as such.
Two things to keep in mind:
1) Desna's not much of a "threat" to Lamashtu because there are rules and counterbalances in place that limit how much a deity can directly war or intervene with another deity. In Desna's place, she's already on thin ice, for swoopin in and killing the demon lord Aolar-if she tried that again against another demon lord or, say, Lamashtu, things would get ugly quick, and Desna's not that ready to risk it all just to get revenge for an ancient wrong.
2) Pazuzu is NOT bound by those same rules. Demon lords fighting among themselves is, in fact, a GOOD thing to the rest of creation, so the gods don't really care (and in some cases, actively encourage these fights) if demon lords attack demon lords, even if one of them involved is Lamashtu. While Lamashtu is more powerful than any one demon lord, if she devotes too much time against one of them, the others come in an nip at her heels. And in some cases, Lamashtu has a particular hatred of some fellow demons-Pazuzu's one of them. So far, he's been fast and tricky and wily and smart and tough enough to avoid her direct wrath while constantly vexing her (both in person and via his cult messing with hers). In fact, there's a simmering Lamashtu vs. Pazuzu thing going on in the deep background around the Lost Coast of Varisia that I might some day expand upon...
As for the idea of PCs killing Demon Lords... you're not the only one here who supports that. I do too. In fact, that's really what demon lords are for--powerful end bosses for campaigns for PCs to defeat. I even orchestrated an entire Adventure Path back in the Dungeon Days where the entire plot built up to the PCs confronting and attempting to destroy a demon lord!
Right now, though, demon lord stat blocks are in a weird "in-between" state. We don't know if or how we'll be doing Mythic Level rules, and until we DO know, I don't want to stat demon lords up officially. If we decide to never do Mythic level rules, then I can go ahead and stat up CR 30 or CR 35 or so demon lords--I did this every few months in Dragon magazine back in the day, so I know the rules work for this. But what I don't want to do is go through the trouble of statting them up and THEN having us put out some Mythic rules, and suddenly having those non-mythic stats look and feel wrong. That's what happened with D&D early on-Deities and Demigods came out before the Epic Level Handbook, and as a result, the GODS didn't have Epic powers, and the stats for gods didn't follow the rules for Epic level rules, and it made for a really awkward bit of rules continuity.
So putting it shortly, Pazuzu is a badass? Hey, I'm okay with that. He was pretty awesome in most of the older 3.5e works too, and it seems that he can hold that reputation even when his foe has the upper hand. As for Desna, I don't know what I can say, but I can assume the whole Aolar issue has affected her Clerics too?
And I have been told countless times by many different kind of people about how the Epic Level rules in 3.5e didn't work out as intended (and the stats for gods were a an even worse offender), so I wouldn't tell anyone here at Paizo to hurry up with the epic level rules. Taking some time, you guys will probably find a way to work them well, and people should be happy with the end result. (Oddly enough, I am not as cynical about this as I usually would be.)
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One other quick note:
A big campaign SHOULD be game changing. In some way. While we haven't yet officially grandfathered any AP into Golarion's official timeline, if we did, each and every one of them would fundamentally alter the campaign setting in some way. Some more than others. And in cases where PCs fail, the world can be altered in EXTENSIVE ways.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing a campaign that changes the world. In fact, that's good for the game. It's not necessarily good for PAIZO, since us doing a campaign that would, say, result in Varisia being sunk under the sea would suddenly obsolete a LOT of our back stock and make it harder to sell... and it would also really annoy customers who LIKE Varisia and would drive them away... but doing something like that in a home game is the whole point of making Golarion your own.
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Creative Director
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So putting it shortly, Pazuzu is a badass? Hey, I'm okay with that. He was pretty awesome in most of the older 3.5e works too, and it seems that he can hold that reputation even when his foe has the upper hand. As for Desna, I don't know what I can say, but I can assume the whole Aolar issue has affected her Clerics too?
And I have been told countless times by many different kind of people about how the Epic Level rules in 3.5e didn't work out as intended (and the stats for gods were a an even worse offender), so I wouldn't tell anyone here at Paizo to hurry up with the epic level rules. Taking some time, you guys will probably find a way to work them well, and people should be happy with the end result. (Oddly enough, I am not as cynical about this as I usually would be.)
There are several demon lords who qualify as "badass." In that they're only a LITTLE bit shy of being full on deities themselves. Pazuzu is one of them. So are Cyth-V'sug and Nocticula and a few others. These demon lords are essentially one plot point away from becoming new deities, and two or three of them teaming up could probably take down a full-on deity if they worked at it. The fortunate thing is that they hate each other more than they hate anyone else!
My opinion on Epic rules: put a level cap in there and suddenly they ALMOST work. Because you can design things (be they new rules or monsters or treasure or adventures or settings or whatever) to fit into that known level band, and suddenly it all functions well enough. There are still some underlying mechanical issues... but the lack of a level cap is the primary thing for Epic rules that fuels the "it doesn't work" crowd in one way or another.
And never fear... we ARE taking our time trying to figure out epic rules. Remember: just because we haven't publicly said "We're doing this, it'll be released on this date!" doesn't mean we haven't been trying to solve the problem in one way or another for years behind the scenes...
I removed some posts and the replies to them. Let's avoid name calling. Also, flag it and move on.
My opinion on Epic rules: put a level cap in there and suddenly they ALMOST work. Because you can design things (be they new rules or monsters or treasure or adventures or settings or whatever) to fit into that known level band, and suddenly it all functions well enough. There are still some underlying mechanical issues... but the lack of a level cap is the primary thing for Epic rules that fuels the "it doesn't work" crowd in one way or another.And never fear... we ARE taking our time trying to figure out epic rules. Remember: just because we haven't publicly said "We're doing this, it'll be released on this date!" doesn't mean we haven't been trying to solve the problem in one way or another for years behind the scenes...
Could you (i.e. Pathfinder developers, not specifically you, good sir) please consider making something more like old D&D Immortal Rules instead of remaking Epic Rules of 3rd edition?
Why not have the Immortal rules as an alternative in the same book? That way it would cater to both audiences.
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Creative Director
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Could you (i.e. Pathfinder developers, not specifically you, good sir) please consider making something more like old D&D Immortal Rules instead of remaking Epic Rules of 3rd edition?
My opinion on Epic rules: put a level cap in there and suddenly they ALMOST work. Because you can design things (be they new rules or monsters or treasure or adventures or settings or whatever) to fit into that known level band, and suddenly it all functions well enough. There are still some underlying mechanical issues... but the lack of a level cap is the primary thing for Epic rules that fuels the "it doesn't work" crowd in one way or another.And never fear... we ARE taking our time trying to figure out epic rules. Remember: just because we haven't publicly said "We're doing this, it'll be released on this date!" doesn't mean we haven't been trying to solve the problem in one way or another for years behind the scenes...
We could.
Actually, the reason I call them "Mythic" rules and not "Epic" rules is because what we come up with is GUARANTEED to be different than a simple remake of the 3rd edition epic rules.
At this point, all I can promise is that a level cap will be in effect. Not sure what that level cap will be, but that's the single greatest error the 3rd edition epic rules made, and I'm not interested in making that mistake.
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Creative Director
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Why not have the Immortal rules as an alternative in the same book? That way it would cater to both audiences.
Because that would be too big of a book, and too big of a design challenge for us to pull off all at once, and "catering to two audiences" is also a way of saying "gives both audiences a reason to not buy the book since half the book will be of no interest to them."