You just need to have your paladin approach things in a less traditional matter. You must be lawful good, but that doesn't mean that you can't have a sense of humor, and it doesn't state you have to buy in to the classic stereotype. The paladin code listed in the book is pretty vague - you can actually get away with quite a bit as long as respect legitimate authority and avoid committing evil acts.
Choose an area of focus for your paladin. Making him a defender is a good start, and easy to stick to. Stress the importance of protecting the innocent, not smiting evildoers. Your description of "Brothels and Barmaids" implies a certain acceptance of vice, but such indulgences are usually regarded as evil only because of the predominant social attitudes. Brothels, even drugs, aren't really on the same level as cold-blooded murder or the routine use of Blasphemy spells. Maybe your paladin sees the necessity of such cathartic release, and would like to see it regulated so these vices aren't abused? Just my two cents.
Even though it sounds like you're using a different set of deities, the recent release of Faiths of Purity features several specific codes for paladins of different deities to follow. In particularly, the paladins of Shelyn and Saranrae seem far more party-friendly than the dominant stereotype.
I see no reason why a Paladin has to be a prude. Nothing in the Paladins codes says he cannot have a good time. As long as he treats everyone with respect including the barmaids he is fine. With a high Charisma and a good attitude he will probably be very popular as long as he is not preaching. If you are gambling and win buy everyone in the bar a round of drinks. I would probably avoid drinking until you pass out, but getting relaxing a little is nothing that will cause problems with the code.
Most of the modern attitude against drinking, gambling and prostitution is a holdover from the Victorian age. In the Medieval age there was a lot less stigma on those activities.
All the Paladin code says if you have to be Lawful Good, can't do Evil, you have to act with honor (and gives examples that you can't lie or use poison), respect the legitimate authority, help the needy, and protect the innocent.
So, as long as the gambling and prostitution isn't illegal wherever you may be, it's not against the Paladin code. And you could always work to get it legalized, too.
And maybe your Dragonborn was a wench or barmaid or something herself in their past life.
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All the Paladin code says if you have to be Lawful Good, can't do Evil, you have to act with honor (and gives examples that you can't lie or use poison), respect the legitimate authority, help the needy, and protect the innocent.
So, as long as the gambling and prostitution isn't illegal wherever you may be, it's not against the Paladin code. And you could always work to get it legalized, too.
I agree with this.
There's nothing in the Paladin code that says you can't hang out with people who drink, gamble or frequent brothels. Depending on the situation, such activities aren't necessarily unlawful or evil (although, in some places, and some circumstances, they may be one or the other, or both! Caveat emptor!).
There's nothing saying the Paladin themself can't drink (hopefully with moderation!) or engage in a friendly wager (particularly with equals, perhaps on the field of battle, not the sort of back alley 'lose your shirt' sort of gambling).
Regardless of the legality of the institution, hanging out in brothels will probably be less able to be justified as 'non-evil,' unless your paladin is quietly protesting the place (perhaps offering remove disease to leaving patrons in exchange for an oath to never return). If it is legal, anything more disruptive to the business of the brothel will likely put the paladin on the wrong side of the law!
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But, if, as a player, one thinks that they can't play a Paladin in such a way as to contribute positively to the enjoyment of the game for the other players, or, at the bare minimum, to not hinder their enjoyment of the game, one should play something else.
I'm fine with a code of conduct (on any class) that restricts that character's behavior, but when it starts restricting other player characters behavior, and limiting other players choices, and hindering other players fun, it can go right out the window.
If it's too restrictive and limiting to *not* hinder other players fun, then it can not let the cover of the Player's Handbook hit it in the caboose on the way out of the game.
Seconded - but then Set is playing alongside Esteriande, my paladin of Shelyn who occasionally works as an exotic dancer. Paladins do not need to be prudes, nor chaste. They need to be honourable, honest in love and out to help the helpless.
I've been privileged enough to be in a campaign with a player who built and played a nonstereotypical paladin. The paladin was lawful good and followed the code, often advocating for legal and just means of achieving our goals first. Sometimes, he was even right :) He looked at people and tried to lead by example, but was never preachy and understood that others couldn't all live up to his standards.
Never confuse the strictness of the general stereotype of the paladin codes for the actual paladin codes. Paladins can still have lives, they just hold themselves to a tougher standard. Have fun with it!
It should be pointed out that just because something is legal doesn't make it moral and by the same token just because something is illegal doesn't make it immoral.
Having a paladin who gets over his prudish disapproval of brothels if they're legalized begs the question of what he does in case of stuff like, say, sumptuary laws. If in the Land X, only the high priestess is allowed to wear chartreuse, and any woman who is not the high priestess shall be, by church law, whipped through the streets, is the paladin down with that? What about people who wear chartreuse in protest of a stupid law? Are they freedom fighters or scofflaws?
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You could be a more understanding paladin.
In my current game, two of my players are brothers raised in a monastery who had never, ever met women. One's a paladin and the other's a ranger (both LG) of Saranrae (sic?).
The ranger is quite smitten with the local barmaid, who is married. The paladin, who is fine with his own vow of chastity, realizes that his brother is not him and has started looking into a sacred prostitute to calm his brother's nerves. He also is looking around for a nice girl after that who isn't married.
Honestly I've never really read anything that stated Bahamut was against gambling and prostitution. I think he'd be against the two if they were used to support evil (so he's anti-pimp, or anti-organized crime).
Paladins can also be forgiving, charitable (tip your waitress--and stripper!), good humored, organized (here are the rules to 17 card monte...), loving (take that to mean what you want), etc. etc.
I'm a big fan of Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series, where their main god's edict is "Love as thou wilt." There is all sorts of lovin going on, but some of the characters are still lawful good. Even the masochistic courtesan-spy.
Also, look at the Knight of the Cross, Michael Carpenter, from the Harry Dresden novels. He's a family man, but he also fights evil. He is good, respectable, and honorable, but he'll also associate with hardbitten private eye/wizards. He fights with a magic sword, but is innovative enough to use kevlar in his armor.
It should be pointed out that just because something is legal doesn't make it moral and by the same token just because something is illegal doesn't make it immoral.
Having a paladin who gets over his prudish disapproval of brothels if they're legalized begs the question of what he does in case of stuff like, say, sumptuary laws. If in the Land X, only the high priestess is allowed to wear chartreuse, and any woman who is not the high priestess shall be, by church law, whipped through the streets, is the paladin down with that? What about people who wear chartreuse in protest of a stupid law? Are they freedom fighters or scofflaws?
This question would be answered by a paladin depending on if they value the lawful or good portion of their alignment. One who emphasizes law over good would agree with the chartreuse law.
I like to point this out about paladins whenever the "paladins should be joyless and rigid" argument comes out. Their powers are Smite Evil and Detect Evil, not Smite Chaos and Detect Chaos. I think the stereotype about paladins is perpetuated by table trolls who wanted to make life hell for their fellow players, not an actual function of who they are. Please don't feel like you need to be uncooperative just because it's roleplaying. We don't let this occur for evil characters in a good game.
A paladin should go with their morals over their ethics, but just shouldn't ignore their ethics. If the paladin goes to a brothel, he should make sure he is paying a willing prostitute, not one that is in slavery. It's my understanding that prostitution is illegal due to worries about slavery and forced sex. Gambling and drinking should be allowable as long as the paladin is not breaking local laws, hurting anyone, loses all his money, or go into an inebriated stupor. Think of your paladin as the fun-loving designated driver. Let your friends have fun but help them out before they get Steve McKenna'd.
Hope this helps, Banatine.
Most of the modern attitude against drinking, gambling and prostitution is a holdover from the Victorian age. In the Medieval age there was a lot less stigma on those activities.
+1
Although i haven't really seen any bad attitude against drinking in my country (at least not from serious people)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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His being a dragonborn may help here, too. I once played a similar character, from a time before history, when dragons ruled the world. He was projected 25,000 years into the future, into the current day.
He kept a strict discipline himself, and tolerated no wickedness, but he didn't much care whether his comrades were raucous whore-mongering party-animals. "It's a mammal thing," he assured himself. "I just don't understand."
Read this page: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alignment-description/additional-rules
There's nothing about good and evil nor law and chaos that really stops a paladin from having a good time at a brothel. As noted above, they should probably ask whether the lady (or gentleman) is voluntarily prostituting themselves in order to make sure they are not violating the prostitute's dignity.
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''..Being a paladin means being a soldier in the cause of your diety, and the ideals of law and good, while this doesn't mean that you have to be Judge Dredd..
Judge Dredd.. Lawful *Good*
o_o Sweet bejesus.
Dude sent a grieving widow to the cubes for 20 years - she offered him a cup of tea. With sugar.
He ignored the bribery of an officer and hit her for possession of a controlled substance without a licence!
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<3 JD *-*
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I've had a character who i've been tweaking and yearning to play since her inception 7 years ago. She's a Dragonborn of Bahamut Paladin, and that in itself creates a big problem for everyone else in my group.
The problem is that while she will be playing Dungeons & Dragons, the rest of the party like playing Brothels & Barmaids!
Not to sound unduly critical, but IMO dragonborn are the lamest, cheesiest abomination in 4th edition. "I want to have the most min/maxed stats evah for a paladin! And snort fire!"
<gnome druid chortles to himself, envisioning slitting annoying death-breath critter's throat, then having two sets of dragonhide full-plate made. Makes mental note to consult alchemist for tanning supplies.>
-- and that's pretty much the problem: the dragon thing. Not the paladin thing (paladins can whore and booze all they want as long as they stay good -- an earthly-based monastic order they belong to might not approve, but that has no bearing on the approval of the gods).
IMO you, and your group, would have way more fun if you made an iconic-race CG cavalier or barb/cler/figh/chevalier -- then you'd be carousing with the rest of them and still be challenging/smiting.
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I've played a paladin that was basically a normal guy except he was a bit preachy at times as well as the usual respect the law, respect authority, respect good above both of those.
The thing is that he didn't think he was anything special. He doesn't realize the effect a paladin has on people, good or evil. He doesn't realize he is an inspiration to others, nor that people look to him to solve problems. Indeed, he gets annoyed that so much is asked of him of little things (please marry my daughter! please save my cat! will you give your blessing to our wedding? please shop at my store! etc).
People have GOT to stop thinking lawful good = preachy Roman Catholic priest. LG = a person who donates to charity, volunteers for shop kitchens, doesn't pirate music on the internet, helps out in the neighborhood. And that's just my view.
A paladin tends to be more of a zealot, but that's the stereotype, not the way it has to be.
Ever read "Curse of the Azure Bonds" by Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak? It's a Forgotten Realms book.
Andy Griffith.
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Seeking clarification for the most part so I'll simplify, so you don't have problems with Paladins who booze and whore around, but you have an issue with a dragonblooded race?First off, "boozing and whoring around" is not synonymous with "being a jerk" (which IS synonymous with NOT "staying good"). 2) Dragonborn are a non-iconic cheese-weasel race (so I have "problems" with all them...I am such a bigot. "Mr. Schneider, you are hereby sentenced to mandatory sensitivity-training, and must provide free moist towelettes to everyone about to cry!"), and I strongly suspect that the unease of Banatine's fellow players is an identical subconscious awareness.
Secondly, she is not a 4E Dragonborn (brutish pretenders!), she is a Dragonborn of Bahamut. See: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105bThey're still the same thing, even if the stat adjustments are different. Stupid, stinky-breath dragonfaces roaring and sticking their tongues out. Hate 'em. Favored Enemy bonus +8.
But enough ranting. Maybe i am just seeing the paladin's code as black and white. Freya was a pretty 'fun' person when she was half-elf, and she still remembers her old life. she can probably still understand that even the most dedicated and trustworthy allies need to unwind in their own ways.
Was this a DM's "reward" to your character after a heroic death, or was it something you cooked up?
BTW, the bloodline sorcs in Pathfinder are awesome -- have you considered something like that?
Andy Griffith.Jack Carter. (Eureka)
I applaud --just as good of a reference only more current.
Not to sound unduly critical, but IMO dragonborn are the lamest, cheesiest abomination in 4th edition. "I want to have the most min/maxed stats evah for a paladin! And snort fire!"I've had a character who i've been tweaking and yearning to play since her inception 7 years ago. She's a Dragonborn of Bahamut Paladin, and that in itself creates a big problem for everyone else in my group.
The problem is that while she will be playing Dungeons & Dragons, the rest of the party like playing Brothels & Barmaids!
Let's see....
Poster is picking on the least important part of the OP's post, the race.Poster is insulting said race, and claiming that it is the actual problem the OP faces.
Poster is insulting those who play the race.
Poster is bringing up 4E.
You might want to be careful, Mike. This is sounding pretty trollish. :/
Do you think there's any way i can make the paladin more 'fun-loving', without hurting the core concept too much?
You want your Dude to Abide? Then have I got the sect for you: http://dudeism.com/
"Come join the slowest-growing religion in the world – Dragonism. An ancient philosophy that preaches non-preachiness, practices as little as possible, and above all, uh…lost my train of thought there. Anyway, if you’d like to find peace on earth and goodwill, man, we’ll help you get started. Right after a little nap."
Doesn't that sound like a dragon? A religion based on naps and non-preachiness sounds right up the alley of your game group's play style. Basically, you take the draconic long view on everything, giving people a chance to make their mistakes and let the hangover and STDs bring them to redemption.
The creed:
From what is Dudeism trying to liberate us? Thinking that’s too uptight.
To what state of being is Dudeism trying to bring us: Just taking it easy, man.
By what means does Dudeism attempt do this? Abiding.
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KC, pouring gasoline on a smolder isn't trolling? Come on. -- The issue is that his friends don't like the concept either. Berate me? Fine. Now what about them?
Ok, i'm asking for advice on playing a more easy-going paladin mike.
Your friends sound like a chaotic bunch. A paladin is going to have trouble fitting in to that group; and the problems only snowball with the species aspect involved when hormonal overdrive mammalians are contemplating whether or not to invite the lizard to their lecherous assignations with libidinous barmaids.
As mentioned previously, try a Chevalier of, idealy, Cayden Coilean.
Banatine,
Apparently, you see some conflict between your paladin's code and her companions' behavior. It doesn't sound like their activities are truly nasty, just knavish and likely to bring disrepute on their companions. While a paladin isn't required to browbeat her allies about morality, she is required to maintain the highest possible standards herself. She may not want to stay in a place that would call her moral code into question and her companions are inconsiderate to force the issue.
As described in Races of the Dragon, Bahamut sternly opposes evil, accepting no excuses for wicked behavior. Despite his rigid code, he is very sympathetic to those oppressed or victimized by evil forces. Unlike other dragons, Bahamut is neither vain nor greedy. He is also believed to honor ancient lore, prophecy, song, and wisdom.
Bahamut's followers tend to support the fight against evil more than take to the front lines themselves, advising, sheltering, and assisting those who battle the forces of darkness. They especially oppose the machinations of Tiamat, mother of evil dragonkind.
Based on that information, how do you think a paladin of Bahamut should behave? I picture his church as a fairly stern and humorless bunch, but not particularly interested in issues such as drunkenness or "improper" sexual behavior.
I don't understand your point, Mike. I was warning that your topic-changing was making you look bad. I apologize if I sounded hostile.
Your post didn't seem to mention his friends. The OP's post didn't, either. The problem was that he worried a paladin wouldn't fit the group, and he wanted advice.
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Your post didn't seem to mention his friends. The OP's post didn't, either.It did, if somewhat circuitously:
The problem is that while she will be playing Dungeons & Dragons, the rest of the party like playing Brothels & Barmaids! Playing this character not only forces me to be the party leader, it also turns me into the ultimate party killjoy
To me, that read like he was concerned with how he would fit in with what his friends enjoyed doing.
A lawful good character acts with thought, looking ahead to the implications of his (or her) actions. They earnetly endeavor to be honest and respectful of any potential partner. Some choose to be celibate or chaste. Others wait for sex until a permanent relationship, such as marriage, is formalized.
A lawful good alignment does not prohibit sex outside of marriage. It just means that the character must clearly communicate what they are offering and what they expect from their partner. Even paladins can have robust, varied sex lives, but they need to come to clear terms with their lovers in advance.
Gambling, and drinking as other posters have said should be indulged in with moderation. Paladins don't have to stop other party members from engaging in such either, though they can (and probably should) advise them on the wisdom of such. The key here is to advise, though, and not preach. You offer them your advice, and if they take it great, if not let it go. So long as they are not committing evil acts, you don't need to babysit them.
Geistlinger, even played so, he's still going to have a dull time if his friends want to spend two hours carousing every session.
Unless his character is designed to be able to join in.
Gambling isn't inherently evil, though it is a little chaotic. Same with drinking. A paladin could even be addicted to either and keep his alignment (just like a paladin could get mind controlled). Brothels may be a little more debatable, depending on who you ask.
Geistlinger, even played so, he's still going to have a dull time if his friends want to spend two hours carousing every session.Unless his character is designed to be able to join in.
Gambling isn't inherently evil, though it is a little chaotic. Same with drinking. A paladin could even be addicted to either and keep his alignment (just like a paladin could get mind controlled). Brothels may be a little more debatable, depending on who you ask.
It depends -- many states say legally that gambling is skill based -- as such it isn't chaotic but something that can be predicted and won with skill instead of luck.
Those states are right for many forms of gambling in my opinion.
Paladins can be a bit more loose, but to an extent. I agreed with an earlier post (can't see it now - I hereby give credit) that cited the Paladin's code, and how it is a stronger commitment than other classes - and he's right. Playing a Paladin is a special commitment that not every player can be happy with - whether they play with them or play the class themselves. Clerics are more loose, still with some commitment, Druids in the middle, and all the other classes essentially non-existent. You should consider that.
Just because you're good doesn't mean you can't enjoy an ale (though my Paladin won't, but that's personal choice), and you could provide slight nudging for PCs to keep away from brothels and settle for world-weary tavern wenches - such things should make for solid in-party RP.
In terms of lawfulness versus goodness - why must one choose? The mean queen who forbids people from wearing certain clothing: You can say "The Law is fine, but she needs to treat people with more respect, rather than simply arresting or beating them." And push such an agenda. Now if push comes to shove, a choice might need to be made, but that's another point.
All that being said...Mike makes a good point. Another class may be appropriate in this particular situation. You could even remain LG, but simply playing a class with less restrictions (nothing is specifically outlined in the Paladin code, but as I mentioned, I think playing a Paladin is more than words on a page), would be much smoother.
That being said, ask the group. Get with them all, including the DM. Talk with everyone about it. See what they think. Express your concerns, your expectations, and see what your group thinks.
There are a lot of good-minded dieties, creeds, and beliefs which are not suitable for a Paladin to hold. When it comes to matters of love and relationships, a Paladin has to uphold the lawful edicts involving such relationships, honesty,commitment,and consistency are an important consideration.
Whose Lawful edicts are that?
But enough ranting. Maybe i am just seeing the paladin's code as black and white.
The Paladin's Code is black and white. The thing is, it doesn't have anything to say about the things you're worried about. If you want to have a few drinks, have a few drinks-- just remember you're still responsible for what you do when you're drunk. If you want to gamble a little, feel free, but not before you've paid your debts and your tithes.
As a dragonborn, you've probably got no personal use for brothels but that doesn't mean you have to be opposed to them. Unless the people running the brothel are evil, you're under no obligation concerning it beyond your general Code of Conduct. Curing diseases and smiting violent customers is a perfectly legitimate use of your class abilities.
The Paladin's Code is black and white.
Kind of. The Paladin code, just like most any moral and ethical code, isn't black and white so much as it acknowledges the EXISTENCE of black and white. There are plenty of shades of gray, and while paladins are expected to fight to protect good and vanquish evil, he (or she as the case may be) isn't expected to automatically know where on the black-to-white scale everything lay.
Whenever I see a Paladin being a zealoutous, overbearing, religious nutjob I beleive he's playing the class improperly. After all, Good is supposed to lead by example, not force. Unfortunately, a lot of people who play paladins assume theyr'e supposed to FORCE others into the edicts of good and law, rather than trying to espouse the benefits of such a view. Thus, the stereotype. There's nothing in ANY paladin edict I've seen that states they can't enjoy themselves, or let loose every once in a while. So long as they don't commit an act that is plainly evil or chaotic, they're in the clear. After all, why would anyone ever fight for good if they couldn't enjoy what they were fighting for. If the paladin learns that a prostitution ring is fueled by underground slavery, THEN s/he would take action. The paladin might even investigate such a possibility before it became apparent. But paladins who are dour, self-righteous jerks aren't fun for anyone, and aren't how the class is supposed to be played. after all, this is a game about having fun, and Paladins are a part of that.
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"Sir, I shall not abide your crass use of the word "harlot" in reference to my company. She is a Lady of the Night and you will speak of her respectfully or not at all."
Honestly, some paladins would be downright appreciated by workers in that trade. Some less so.
I don't see that a paladin needs to become the leader of the PCs. How about humbly leading by example and not forcing others to act in the way you see right? Of course if a certain line is crossed by a fellow PC a paladin may have to report things to the authorities (or if he has legal authority himself apprehend him) and/or not associate with a PC any more...
In paladin code discussions I always plug the Eberron novel Bound by Iron for an excellent characterization of a veteran paladin who used to serve in the military (though more as a Sergeant than an Officer) and even uses a bit of misdirection now and then. At the start of the novel he gets an elven bard/journalist sidekick/hanger-on who he has to leave behind as her Chaotic (neutral) nature is starting to show. In the flashback scenes he is shown serving in the army and coping with moral dillemas posed by war, bad superiors and fellow soldiers in the military.
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But paladins who are dour, self-righteous jerks aren't fun for anyone, and aren't how the class is supposed to be played. after all, this is a game about having fun, and Paladins are a part of that.
Thank you! This is so true!
"Sir, I shall not abide your crass use of the word "harlot" in reference to my company. She is a Lady of the Night and you will speak of her respectfully or not at all."
Honestly, some paladins would be downright appreciated by workers in that trade. Some less so.
I laughed for 5 minutes. Awesome.
My friend is playing a paladin in our Kingmaker AP. He drinks, likes good booze, good tobacco and large breasts. But he treats women with respect and actually legalized prostitution in the kingdom. Gods save you if you mistreat the ladies of the night or insult them.