No, not the shooting.
The melee damage.
Am I right that a pistol, not made for melee combat, does 1-6 dmg, equal to a mace?
Am I right that a rifle/musket/ does the same damage as a bastard sword, PLUS allows for a knockdown chance?
A pistol is nowhere near as effective at beating things as a mace. It might be equal to a jo stick (1-4 dmg) or a pair of brass knuckles.
A rifle used to beat something with is no better then a baseball bat, which is a 1-6 dmg club.
And Knockdown? for FREE? this is like the weapon of the gods. Uber ranged attack and melee all in one. Who cares about the misfire...I'm going to go around using a rifle to BEAT STUFF WITH for 1-10 dmg and knockdown! Woot! It's better then a 10 lb tetsubo or heavy mace!
===Aelryinth
No, not the shooting.
The melee damage.
Am I right that a pistol, not made for melee combat, does 1-6 dmg, equal to a mace?
Am I right that a rifle/musket/ does the same damage as a bastard sword, PLUS allows for a knockdown chance?
A pistol is nowhere near as effective at beating things as a mace. It might be equal to a jo stick (1-4 dmg) or a pair of brass knuckles.
A rifle used to beat something with is no better then a baseball bat, which is a 1-6 dmg club.
And Knockdown? for FREE? this is like the weapon of the gods. Uber ranged attack and melee all in one. Who cares about the misfire...I'm going to go around using a rifle to BEAT STUFF WITH for 1-10 dmg and knockdown! Woot! It's better then a 10 lb tetsubo or heavy mace!
===Aelryinth
Except to DO that cost grit, which you dont have very much of.
Besides 1d6 is club damage, which is just a wood bat, the butt plate of a gun is metal reinforced and designed specifically for melee. So it stands to reason it would do the damage of a club it's size.
Catch Off-Guard doesn't need grit. Mr. Fishy says shoot 'em. Then beat the suvivors.
Take Throw Anything and throw bullets, ohh, and snatch arrows so you can catch the return fire.
Mr. Fishy can reload so his going to beat you to death with his ammo case.
How much damage does a power horn do? Mr. Fishy crit...we use the crit deck.
Yea, i tired the whole catch off guard thing, but it's a feat in a feat starved class.
Pistol whip should do what catch off guard does, but only for guns, effectively making a trained gunslinger (3rd level) proficient with the martial weapon of gun club. This prevents level dip but gives the gunslinger something it needs, without costing it a feat, but it doesnt apply to everything that isn't a gun, seems balanced to me... If you want to spend a grit you can knock people down, that is going to be so uncommon (due to lack of grit) it would be situational at best.
Edit: No name should also not be a feat. No character class is going to take this, besides gunslinger, because they would need two feats to get it (amateur and no name), it's a best a gimmick for a gunslinger ( a cool one but not more than a gimmick) and there for should be a deed.
A ronin or something might want this ability, but why take amateur gunslinger to get it? Unless said ronin wants to use a gun, the only deed that is useable for him without a gun is gunslinger dodge. It's just not going to happen. If a fighter wants to have something like no name, he can be a gunslinger. A fighter would also have enough feats for catch off guard.
Pistol whip just needs to borrow a little from catch off guard and be free (I can take or leave the whole knock down part of it honestly...if it's there and costs a grit...great)
I'm pretty sure you can reduce the cost of Pistol Whip to 0 with a feat or later class ability, no?
And if you're trying to tell me that a rifle is built better for melee combat then an iron-cored and weighted quarterstaff, or a steel-shod six foot tetsubo, OR a heavy mace with a five pound head...mmm, no, I'm just not going to believe it.
===Aelryinth
I'm pretty sure you can reduce the cost of Pistol Whip to 0 with a feat or later class ability, no?
And if you're trying to tell me that a rifle is built better for melee combat then an iron-cored and weighted quarterstaff, or a steel-shod six foot tetsubo, OR a heavy mace with a five pound head...mmm, no, I'm just not going to believe it.
===Aelryinth
signature deed is 11th level and requires a feat which there already isnt enough of.
Iron cored and weighted quarter staff? where are you getting these from? They are just wooden staves.
A tetsubo is a heavy two handed weapon.
The black powder era pistols hand iron shod butts designed specifically for hand to hand melee attacks. so yes, just as good as a wooden club or bat.
Muskets were routinely and regularly used through their history as melee weapons. Have you ever watched any movies with black powder long guns in them, they are ALL used that way, and no as improvised weapons, designed with the intent and purpose and trained with specifically to do that job.
Military's around the world still teach rifle and bayonet training as part of the basic skills of a combat soldier and many a foe has been killed using the rifle/musket as the weapon. I daresay more people in history have been killed by the butt stroke of a musket, than met their end with a tetsubo.
The civil war alone killed more people than any other war in history, until the invention of chemical warfare and the machine gun.
Seeing as the vast majority of weapons were single shot? what do you think they killed each other with? Tetsubos?
we're not talking bayonets here. We're talking the base weapon.
Combat quarterstaves intended for combat and not walking sticks often were iron-shod and weighted to hit harder. Bo sticks were often capped on the ends.
A rifle butt should not hit harder then that. You're basically calling a ranged attack weapon as good as a melee weapon at a job its made for. Meh. Not buying it. the rifle is a club, doing 1-6, used two handed. You don't take a rifle into a fight against a real melee weapon and someone who knows how to use it. That's why modern military STILL carry knives...and stick em on rifles to form crude spears.
==+Aelryinth
we're not talking bayonets here. We're talking the base weapon.
Combat quarterstaves intended for combat and not walking sticks often were iron-shod and weighted to hit harder. Bo sticks were often capped on the ends.
A rifle butt should not hit harder then that. You're basically calling a ranged attack weapon as good as a melee weapon at a job its made for. Meh. Not buying it. the rifle is a club, doing 1-6, used two handed. You don't take a rifle into a fight against a real melee weapon and someone who knows how to use it. That's why modern military STILL carry knives...and stick em on rifles to form crude spears.
==+Aelryinth
Crude spears? No. the muskets were long and formed pikes.
The military bayonet, has many different forms in different modern militaries. Some better than others. So let me speak from experience. The US army does not mount bayonets at anytime except A) Dress Parade or B) Basic training.They rattle, they are loose, they suck, they get in the way of using the weapon as intended. The knife we use to cut things (if it can be used as such, they are often dull) or to pry things open... its more of a tool.
Those who know how to knife fight, bring their own knife with personal gear. Most US military are not broadly well trained with a knife.
What they do do is smack you with the BUTT of the rifle, if needs be and block incomming melee attacks with said rifle. They are all rather well trained with doing that.
I do not recall a battle more recent than korea, where the bayonet is recorded as being used. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, just isn't comming to mind.
However, the napoleonic bayonet actually plugged the barrel of the musket and as such was not commonly used, unless melee was expected (like preparing to charge).
Civil war era most bayonets mounted along side the barrel and could be fixed and still fire the weapon. However, this does not discount the endless people that were slain from cacked skulls due to the BUTT STROKE.
the average musket was 55" tall and weighed around 5.4 lbs of metal and wood. Wiki says the tetsubo was 57" tall and weighed 4 lbs.
Musket but plates were metal reinforced, for what end, to look cool?
No to club you to death with.
Both ends were lethal, the bayonet and the butt, and bayonet training teaches you to use it that way, specifically much like a quarter staff using both ends alternatively, so effectively like a double weapon in game terms.
I would suspect, someone with TWF and a mounted bayonet on a musket should be able to use it as a double weapon.
The musket IS heavier than the tetsubo AND designed for melee combat.
There are multiple historical accounts of extended use and death dealing with muskets and rifles using the butt stroke, the most famous I believe I can recall is the battle of the Almo.
You are trying to argue two fantasy weapons don't measure up to each other, because of real world logic, but your data is simply not there.
Other than "the tetsubo looks better"
we're not talking bayonets here. We're talking the base weapon.
Combat quarterstaves intended for combat and not walking sticks often were iron-shod and weighted to hit harder. Bo sticks were often capped on the ends.
A rifle butt should not hit harder then that. You're basically calling a ranged attack weapon as good as a melee weapon at a job its made for. Meh. Not buying it. the rifle is a club, doing 1-6, used two handed. You don't take a rifle into a fight against a real melee weapon and someone who knows how to use it. That's why modern military STILL carry knives...and stick em on rifles to form crude spears.
==+Aelryinth
Pendagast already mentioned it but the feat in question reduces the grit cost to zero but requires level 11 to get, until that point you are burning your limited grit. Also it is a standard action to use. considering that by level 11 you would have iterative attacks and you are waisting those to run up to someone and hit them for less damage than shooting them only to have the possibly to knock them prone. not over-powered.
Also noted in the text for the whole knock down thing one must still use CMB vs. CMD so still not as easy as it sounds. Also the damage for the guns sounds about right, during my time in the Marines I got Butt Stroked by accident once and even with protective gear on it did some damage.
Also noted in the text for the whole knock down thing one must still use CMB vs. CMD so still not as easy as it sounds. Also the damage for the guns sounds about right, during my time in the Marines I got Butt Stroked by accident once and even with protective gear on it did some damage.
That kind of speaks to the impressiveness of your protective gear -- I've not seen many that don't take a lot of damage from getting butt stroked.
"Sir! It looks like the man with the gun is running towards our men! I think he intends to hit us with the end of his rifle!"
"...God help us all."
...Military's around the world still teach rifle and bayonet training as part of the basic skills of a combat soldier and many a foe has been killed using the rifle/musket as the weapon. I daresay more people in history have been killed by the butt stroke of a musket, than met their end with a tetsubo.
The civil war alone killed more people than any other war in history, until the invention of chemical warfare and the machine gun.
Seeing as the vast majority of weapons were single shot? what do you think they killed each other with? Tetsubos?
was reading through the posts, and must say i kinda disagree with you pendagast. The american civil war cost about 620.000 soldiers their life, that is quite a lot i agree, but i do have to point out that the napoleonic wars cost about 2.5 million soldiers their life. This is ofcourse without civilian casualties, but more of those in the napoleonic wars too i guess. Also even though the weapons were single shot, most of the times they just reloaded and shot again. It was seen as gentleman warfare to just stand there and take the enemys fire, and then shot back at him. So most of the kills didnt happen with the butt of the musket, but with bullets.
Anyway i do agree with your point that a musket, or a pistol, was well designed to actually function in hand to hand combat. Meaning i think they do about the damage that seems reasonable.
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Just for reference, last bayonet charge I am aware of was 2006 in Afghanistan by british troops and gurkhas. Their are rumors of us marines leading a bayonet charge in iraq several years back but it is more rumour than anything else.
We have pistols in melee do 1d4 and rifles do 1d6, they do not threaten unless player chooses to have weapon prepped for melee during their turn.
...Military's around the world still teach rifle and bayonet training as part of the basic skills of a combat soldier and many a foe has been killed using the rifle/musket as the weapon. I daresay more people in history have been killed by the butt stroke of a musket, than met their end with a tetsubo.
The civil war alone killed more people than any other war in history, until the invention of chemical warfare and the machine gun.
Seeing as the vast majority of weapons were single shot? what do you think they killed each other with? Tetsubos?
I think he meant the Civil War killed more Americans than any other war we've been in. Looking right at my Civil War book right here, and his exact like comes up, just Pendagast forgot the word "Americans"
Which, of course is a given, seeing as it was the American Civil War.
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If any of you doubt what Pendergast is saying about the effectivness of a rifle/ muskett being used as a melee weapon. Watch the movie Zulu
[one of my top 3 war movies] and watch the scene with Color Sgt. Brorne
this scene was taken from direct accounts of the battle. Color SGT Borune won the DSM.
All parts of the Rifle were taught as weapons to a british rifleman in the 1800's the bayonet the rfle stock, the barell and the butt of the rifle can all be used to kill an opponent.
As to the Civil War more wounded members of the north and south died due to infection and disease and horrid medical treatment then to those killed outright on the battle field by about 3 to1.
Seeing as the vast majority of weapons were single shot? what do you think they killed each other with? Tetsubos?
Bullets