Generally, when something gains the broken condition, it's because it has been reduced to half hit points, or when it has gained the broken condition its hit points are set to half.
My question is "how does this interact with the misfire rules for firearms?"
If I misfire, causing my gun to gain the broken condition, is it now at half hit points? I believe it is, but I want confirmation. If I fix the jam with quick clear or a similar ability, is my gun still at half hit points?
If so, will a second misfire take away the remaining half of the hit points, effectively destroying my gun regardless of abilities like quick clear?
I thought of the misfire as being a special case unrelated to the firearms hp, kind of like how there is lethal and non lethal damage (a terrible analogy but the only one I could think of off the top of my head.) So if the firearm gets the broken condition from a misfire it acts as if it is broken but still has it's normal hp and can be fixed with a quick clear and such. If a gun is broken through hp damage than a quick clear wouldn't fix it.
That is my interpretation of the rules anyway but it brings up further questions like, what if my gun gains the broken condition through hp damage? does a misfire cause it to explode even if you hadn't misfired previously?
I thought of the misfire as being a special case unrelated to the firearms hp, kind of like how there is lethal and non lethal damage (a terrible analogy but the only one I could think of off the top of my head.) So if the firearm gets the broken condition from a misfire it acts as if it is broken but still has it's normal hp and can be fixed with a quick clear and such. If a gun is broken through hp damage than a quick clear wouldn't fix it.
That is my interpretation of the rules anyway but it brings up further questions like, what if my gun gains the broken condition through hp damage? does a misfire cause it to explode even if you hadn't misfired previously?
Thanks, but that's not the way I interpreted it at all.
Man, the game developers sure didn't bother to cover a lot of important eras did they?
I thought of the misfire as being a special case unrelated to the firearms hp, kind of like how there is lethal and non lethal damage (a terrible analogy but the only one I could think of off the top of my head.) So if the firearm gets the broken condition from a misfire it acts as if it is broken but still has it's normal hp and can be fixed with a quick clear and such. If a gun is broken through hp damage than a quick clear wouldn't fix it.
That is my interpretation of the rules anyway but it brings up further questions like, what if my gun gains the broken condition through hp damage? does a misfire cause it to explode even if you hadn't misfired previously?Thanks, but that's not the way I interpreted it at all.
Man, the game developers sure didn't bother to cover a lot of important eras did they?
A weapon with the broken condition is considered to have half its hit points while it has a broken condition.
A weapon with the broken condition is considered to have half its hit points while it has a broken condition.I thought of the misfire as being a special case unrelated to the firearms hp, kind of like how there is lethal and non lethal damage (a terrible analogy but the only one I could think of off the top of my head.) So if the firearm gets the broken condition from a misfire it acts as if it is broken but still has it's normal hp and can be fixed with a quick clear and such. If a gun is broken through hp damage than a quick clear wouldn't fix it.
That is my interpretation of the rules anyway but it brings up further questions like, what if my gun gains the broken condition through hp damage? does a misfire cause it to explode even if you hadn't misfired previously?Thanks, but that's not the way I interpreted it at all.
Man, the game developers sure didn't bother to cover a lot of important eras did they?
Thanks, but you missed one: If I fix the misfire (via quick clear or some similar ability) is my firearm still considered to be at half hit points? If so, does it explode on a second misfire even if it has been fixed (as per above)?
Thanks, but you missed one: If I fix the misfire (via quick clear or some similar ability) is my firearm still considered to be at half hit points? If so, does it explode on a second misfire even if it has been fixed (as per above)?
If it is fixed, it is no longer broken condition. If it no longer has the broken condition, it does not explode if it misfires, it becomes broken.
If it is fixed, it is no longer broken condition. If it no longer has the broken condition, it does not explode if it misfires, it becomes broken.
Thanks, but you missed one: If I fix the misfire (via quick clear or some similar ability) is my firearm still considered to be at half hit points? If so, does it explode on a second misfire even if it has been fixed (as per above)?
But do abilities like Quick Clear give back the hit points? It could be important if somebody tries to sunder my firearm after I misfired and "fixed" it.
Also, do firearms explode when sundered (that is reduced to 0 or less hp)?
If it is fixed, it is no longer broken condition. If it no longer has the broken condition, it does not explode if it misfires, it becomes broken.
Thanks, but you missed one: If I fix the misfire (via quick clear or some similar ability) is my firearm still considered to be at half hit points? If so, does it explode on a second misfire even if it has been fixed (as per above)?But do abilities like Quick Clear give back the hit points? It could be important if somebody tries to sunder my firearm after I misfired and "fixed" it.
Also, do firearms explode when sundered (that is reduced to 0 or less hp)?
Yes, quick clear effectively repairs the hit point damage.
Firearms do not explode when they are destroyed by a sunder, they only explode when a broken gun misfires.
If it is fixed, it is no longer broken condition. If it no longer has the broken condition, it does not explode if it misfires, it becomes broken.
Thanks, but you missed one: If I fix the misfire (via quick clear or some similar ability) is my firearm still considered to be at half hit points? If so, does it explode on a second misfire even if it has been fixed (as per above)?But do abilities like Quick Clear give back the hit points? It could be important if somebody tries to sunder my firearm after I misfired and "fixed" it.
Also, do firearms explode when sundered (that is reduced to 0 or less hp)?
Yes, quick clear effectively repairs the hit point damage.
Firearms do not explode when they are destroyed by a sunder, they only explode when a broken gun misfires.
Thanks! Can I use quick clear to similarly repair my firearm after it has been (partially) sundered?
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As far as I can tell, if the condition was caused by a misfire then the gun can be "repaired" quickly, using the standard options (quick clear, or whatever relevant actions you need without quick clear), but if the gun is damaged in any other way it must be repaired in the same way any other item would be repaired.
On that note would a make whole, or similar, spell remove the broken condition if gained through a misfire?
As far as I can tell, if the condition was caused by a misfire then the gun can be "repaired" quickly, using the standard options (quick clear, or whatever relevant actions you need without quick clear), but if the gun is damaged in any other way it must be repaired in the same way any other item would be repaired.
On that note would a make whole, or similar, spell remove the broken condition if gained through a misfire?
That would be correct.
Thanks! Can I use quick clear to similarly repair my firearm after it has been (partially) sundered?
Off topic: It seems like you just pour over the books and, using some freak encyclopedic knowledge of the rules nit-pick the hell out of every insignificant detail that has even the most remote chance of appearing in a game.
I really really like that about you. I never hesitate to read your posts. I've seen people give you grief over it, but I probably get more information from your contributions to the rules forums than from anyone else.
Thanks! Can I use quick clear to similarly repair my firearm after it has been (partially) sundered?Off topic: It seems like you just pour over the books and, using some freak encyclopedic knowledge of the rules nit-pick the hell out of every insignificant detail that has even the most remote chance of appearing in a game.
I really really like that about you. I never hesitate to read your posts. I've seen people give you grief over it, but I probably get more information from your contributions to the rules forums than from anyone else.
That's my goal! :D
Thanks! Can I use quick clear to similarly repair my firearm after it has been (partially) sundered?
Only if it misfires after being partially sundered. You have to have a misfire to use quick clear.
I've seen people give you grief over it, but I probably get more information from your contributions to the rules forums than from anyone else.
the problem isn't his nit-picking its his inability to remember basic facts about the abilities he wants to use that already addresses his concerns -- like this quick clear thing -- it could work if he has a misfire after the partial sundering as this is the only time quick clear can be used -- he should have realized that.
I've seen people give you grief over it, but I probably get more information from your contributions to the rules forums than from anyone else.the problem isn't his nit-picking its his inability to remember basic facts about the abilities he wants to use that already addresses his concerns -- like this quick clear thing -- it could work if he has a misfire after the partial sundering as this is the only time quick clear can be used -- he should have realized that.
But say my firearm is sundered (but not destroyed) for 5 damage and then I misfire (putting it to half -5 hp). I then use quick clear. Is it not at full hp, or full hp -5?
the problem isn't his nit-picking its his inability to remember basic facts about the abilities he wants to use that already addresses his concerns -- like this quick clear thing -- it could work if he has a misfire after the partial sundering as this is the only time quick clear can be used -- he should have realized that.
I don't think it's a matter of overlooking material, but rather a pursuit of clarification. A lot of issues could be simplified in favor of GM discretion, but the qualification that it 'could work' under precise circumstances is vague enough to cause minor complications in closet cases. Clarification isn't a bad thing, even if it seems superfluous in the majority of cases. With society play, and RAW crazy rules lawyers in non-society games, the system only benefits from sufficiently tightened RAW.
But say my firearm is sundered (but not destroyed) for 5 damage and then I misfire (putting it to half -5 hp). I then use quick clear. Is it not at full hp, or full hp -5?
It says your firearm is repaired of the broken condition and stephen said that means it receives its hit points back -- common sense would tell me it should be full hp -5 -- however the rules as they currently stand do not support that position well.
It says your firearm is repaired of the broken condition and stephen said that means it receives its hit points back -- common sense would tell me it should be full hp -5 -- however the rules as they currently stand do not support that position well.
But say my firearm is sundered (but not destroyed) for 5 damage and then I misfire (putting it to half -5 hp). I then use quick clear. Is it not at full hp, or full hp -5?
There are two ways for an item to gain the broken condition. One is for the weapon to take damage from an attack or attacks, and that damage is in excess of half the weapon's hit points. The other is for the weapon to gain that condition from some effect. Both firearms and the fragile weapons (currently found in the dogslicer, and more weapons with this condition make their appearance in Ultimate Combat) include effects that grant the broken condition.
If a weapon gains the broken condition from an effect, it takes damage equal to half its hit points +1. This damage is repaired either by something that addresses the effect that granted the weapon the broken condition (like quick clear in the case of firearm misfires) or by the normal method for recovering item hit points (detailed in the broken condition description). When an effect that grants the broken condition is removed, the weapon regains the hit points it lost when the broken condition was applied.
Damage done by an attack against the weapon cannot be repaired by an effect that removes the broken condition.
So, let’s say (for the sake of argument) that a gun has 6 hit points. It misfires, gaining the broken condition. It’s sundered taking 1 point of damage. The gun now has 1 hit point, with 4 damage gained from the broken condition, and 1 gained from the sunder. It can use quick clear to regain 4 damage, but it must use another method to repair the other hit point.
The next round, that same gun is sundered again, this time taking 3 hit points. It is broken again, but these hit points can’t be repaired by a quick clear, because none of the damage was done by a misfire.
This also means that a gun that is sundered and gains the broken condition from the damage that then misfires, explodes. But a gun that becomes broken from a misfire, and then is destroyed by a sunder does not explode.
Thank you so much for your time! That about clears it up for me (and hopefully others as well).
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It says your firearm is repaired of the broken condition and stephen said that means it receives its hit points back -- common sense would tell me it should be full hp -5 -- however the rules as they currently stand do not support that position well.
But say my firearm is sundered (but not destroyed) for 5 damage and then I misfire (putting it to half -5 hp). I then use quick clear. Is it not at full hp, or full hp -5?There are two ways for an item to gain the broken condition. One is for the weapon to take damage from an attack or attacks, and that damage is in excess of half the weapon's hit points. The other is for the weapon to gain that condition from some effect. Both firearms and the fragile weapons (currently found in the dogslicer, and more weapons with this condition make their appearance in Ultimate Combat) include effects that grant the broken condition.
If a weapon gains the broken condition from an effect, it takes damage equal to half its hit points +1. This damage is repaired either by something that addresses the effect that granted the weapon the broken condition (like quick clear in the case of firearm misfires) or by the normal method for recovering item hit points (detailed in the broken condition description). When an effect that grants the broken condition is removed, the weapon regains the hit points it lost when the broken condition was applied.
Damage done by an attack against the weapon cannot be repaired by an effect that removes the broken condition.
So, let’s say (for the sake of argument) that a gun has 6 hit points. It misfires, gaining the broken condition. It’s sundered taking 1 point of damage. The gun now has 1 hit point, with 4 damage gained from the broken condition, and 1 gained from the sunder. It can use quick clear to regain 4 damage, but it must use another method to repair the other hit point.
The next round, that same gun is sundered again, this time taking 3 hit...
Stephen, there's a few problems with this:
1. As per PRPG Table 7-12 (p. 175), a projectile weapon has hardness 5 and 5 hit points (they probably made that rule thinking about a longbow); the final version of UC should specify how many hit points a one handed firearm has (pistol) and a two-handed firearm (musket). My thoughts are that since the main working part of the gun is metal, pistols should be hardness 10 and 10 hit points, as per a light metal hafted weapon, and muskets should be hardness 10 and 20 hit points, as per a one-handed metal hafted weapon.
2. Now, about your proposed rule on misfire weapon damage (i.e. "If a weapon gains the broken condition from an effect, it takes damage equal to half its hit points +1.") Instead of half its hit points +1, I recommend you use a fixed number equal to the weapon's base hit points +1. For instance, using my two proposed hit point values above, a misfire would then cause 6 points of damage to a pistol and 11 damage to a musket. Why a fixed number you say? Answer: to provide a tangible advantage to those carrying a +5 musket instead of a +1 holy axiomatic musket... They have the same gp value, but the former has 70 hit points and the latter has 30 hit points. Thus, it makes no sense that the guy who invests in the super hard +5 musket deals 36 points of damage to his weapon on a misfire while the other guy only deals 16 points. By making it a fixed amount, say 11 points for a musket, the guy with a +5 musket can thus misfire 3 times without gaining the broken condition (11 x 3 = 33 points, not enough to reduce it under 35; on the fourth misfire, his weapon has taken 44 hp (70 - 44 = 26 hp) and now gains the broken condition).
3. In light of my suggestions in paragraph 2, above, I also propose that Quick Clear restores a non-fixed amount of Quick Clear damage equal to all the misfire damage taken thus far (i.e. you're basically cleaning/clearing any residue preventing the gun to operate properly, and that takes about the same time all the time regardless of the amount of crap in the barrel...) Thus, a guy with a +5 musket is rewarded in the sense that he can misfire 6 times (11 x 6 = 66) before he can worry about using Quick Clear. This improves Grit economy and provides incentive to invest in a +5 weapon instead of the usual +1 something something something type of weapon... it also gives you a weapon that has 70 hp, so if someone wants to sunder your gun it's a bit harder (i.e. the same reason that a swordsman would like a +5 sword over a +1 s something something something sword...)
(for the record, I didn't eat a pickle for this one but I just came back from the Chinese buffet... he he he... Chinese buffet then a discussion on misfires / gunpowder... coincidence?? O_O )
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By making it a fixed amount, say 11 points for a musket, the guy with a +5 musket can thus misfire 3 times without gaining the broken condition (11 x 3 = 33 points, not enough to reduce it under 35; on the fourth misfire, his weapon has taken 44 hp (70 - 44 = 26 hp) and now gains the broken condition).
The principle of misfire IS to gain the broken condition, not a loss of HP that might -eventually- lead to a broken weapon when it happens too much. Gunslingers can clear quickly their weapon, there is no reason to attenuate what is probably the major balancing point of the guns.
Someone with a +5 musket already got a bonus over someone with a +1 musket in the sense that trying to sunder it will be close to impossible, even when already broken.|
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Thanks! Can I use quick clear to similarly repair my firearm after it has been (partially) sundered?Off topic: It seems like you just pour over the books and, using some freak encyclopedic knowledge of the rules nit-pick the hell out of every insignificant detail that has even the most remote chance of appearing in a game.
I really really like that about you. I never hesitate to read your posts. I've seen people give you grief over it, but I probably get more information from your contributions to the rules forums than from anyone else.
[conspiracy] I bet he's really a secret Paizo employee thats planted to find and ask all those annoying questions developers hate, but do so in a constructive manner so that they are settled with minimum fuss and/or whining. [/conspiracy]
[conspiracy] I bet he's really a secret Paizo employee thats planted to find and ask all those annoying questions developers hate, but do so in a constructive manner so that they are settled with minimum fuss and/or whining. [/conspiracy]Thanks! Can I use quick clear to similarly repair my firearm after it has been (partially) sundered?Off topic: It seems like you just pour over the books and, using some freak encyclopedic knowledge of the rules nit-pick the hell out of every insignificant detail that has even the most remote chance of appearing in a game.
I really really like that about you. I never hesitate to read your posts. I've seen people give you grief over it, but I probably get more information from your contributions to the rules forums than from anyone else.
[conspiracy]Also to make Paizo look better[/conspiracy]
Stephen I appreciate this information (and agree that's how it should work) -- could we see this added in to an errata, or book somewhere to clear this issue up on a more complete basis (even if it is just a Tuesday feature thing)?
Equipment damage as a whole probably needs addressed honestly -- mending vs. the broken condition, mending vs sundered items or items cut apart, mending vs. broken through old age/rotting/neglect/rusting away -- there is a lot of room for a lot of wild stuff currently.
I'm all for giving the GM a large range of options to us -- but some guidance as to what the players should expect at a reasonable level would go a long ways to helping with the entire issue, and GMs a guidelines of what they should go by.
Stephen I appreciate this information (and agree that's how it should work) -- could we see this added in to an errata, or book somewhere to clear this issue up on a more complete basis (even if it is just a Tuesday feature thing)?
Equipment damage as a whole probably needs addressed honestly -- mending vs. the broken condition, mending vs sundered items or items cut apart, mending vs. broken through old age/rotting/neglect/rusting away -- there is a lot of room for a lot of wild stuff currently.
I'm all for giving the GM a large range of options to us -- but some guidance as to what the players should expect at a reasonable level would go a long ways to helping with the entire issue, and GMs a guidelines of what they should go by.
What I posted here will appear in a slightly expanded form as a sidebar in Ultimate Combat. There will be expanded gun rules, other weapons and some armor that deal with the fragile quality, and it is as good a place as any to put the answers to the question.
I may also cover it in a Design Tuesday blog.
Sheer awesomeness -- thank you Stephen.
Odd. I posted this type of thread a week ago, and no one responded.
I guess I'm going to have to start being more like Ravingdork in my postings to get noticed. ;)
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Most of what I asked is covered (and while I dislike the method, I'll respect it).
One thing I was wondering though:
Will there be a rule for repairing a fragile weapon/gun misfire with craft rules, that doesn't require an absurd amount of time?
If guns get something to the order of 5-10 damage from having misfire, it'd feel weird that it would take 5-10 hours to fix this without the 'Quick Clear' Deed (ie, the average gun user).
Usually a misfire means a jammed bullet or "dirty" barrel. Now, it's likely not a jammed bullet, because that is going to mean "can't use until fixed" type of problem.
So it's likely a "dirty" barrel/chamber, such as after using a hot loaded shot. The extra powder causing catastrophic failure if it ignites where it shouldn't.
This makes sense for the Quick Clear deed, since an expert could potentially clear that out fairly fast.
Even 1 hour feels kind of absurd when looking at it this way.
Something I hope is kept in mind when considering the sidebar, such as "Damage from a misfire can be repaired with a craft check (DC 20) that takes 1 minute (or whatever), or the Quick Clear deed."