Why sould his choice of weapon negate his chance to miss? Is that balanced to you? Really?I'm talking about two identical characters, don't start with how much rogues suck (they don't).Without even making you do the math, I'm willing to concede the exact point you are now making. A gun-wielding rogue with Greater Invisibility at level 12 is better than a bow-wielding rogue with Greater Invisibility at level 12 when fighting an appropriate-CR dragon.
Now, why does this mean that guns are broken?
The point people are trying to make is that balance is more than chance to hit.
I kinda agree that the idea of touch attack weapons feel wrong. But I think it's like the initial reactions to the Mystic Theurge. It looks wrong on paper, but in practice it's just not that big a deal.
But, you know, as a rogue I'd much rather have access to a chill touch spell than a gun. You need to engage in all kinds of crazy shenanigans to get reliable sneak attacks at range.
I removed a post. Really folks, insults are not necessary.
Why sould his choice of weapon negate his chance to miss? Is that balanced to you? Really?I'm talking about two identical characters, don't start with how much rogues suck (they don't).Without even making you do the math, I'm willing to concede the exact point you are now making. A gun-wielding rogue with Greater Invisibility at level 12 is better than a bow-wielding rogue with Greater Invisibility at level 12 when fighting an appropriate-CR dragon.
Now, why does this mean that guns are broken?The point people are trying to make is that balance is more than chance to hit.
I kinda agree that the idea of touch attack weapons feel wrong. But I think it's like the initial reactions to the Mystic Theurge. It looks wrong on paper, but in practice it's just not that big a deal.
But, you know, as a rogue I'd much rather have access to a chill touch spell than a gun. You need to engage in all kinds of crazy shenanigans to get reliable sneak attacks at range.
Exactly. It seems quite powerful at first glance, but has subtle but meaningful limitations to balance it out.
BTW, thanks for reminding me I want to play a Mystic Theurge character ;)
BTW, thanks for reminding me I want to play a Mystic Theurge character ;)
Advice from the heart: make absolutely sure you check first with the other players first, to ensure that they're are OK with one party member being dead weight for half the campaign. Otherwise, it's really not fair to them.
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BTW, thanks for reminding me I want to play a Mystic Theurge character ;)Advice from the heart: make absolutely sure you check first with the other players first, to ensure that they're are OK with one party member being dead weight for half the campaign. Otherwise, it's really not fair to them.
Only half? :)
BTW, thanks for reminding me I want to play a Mystic Theurge character ;)Advice from the heart: make absolutely sure you check first with the other players first, to ensure that they're are OK with one party member being dead weight for half the campaign. Otherwise, it's really not fair to them.
In our Serpents Skull Campaign, we have a witch/druid going for mystic theurge. She's really not dead weight (although is she was all witch right now she'd be alot more powerful).
She's the party leader.
We have:
Gunslinger 8
Ranger 2/barb 2/Oracle 1/ Rage Prophet 2
witch 4/ druid 4
Magus 7
Ronin 7
Because the others aren't "full casters" either her slower progress in spell casting isn't as apparent, although the magus now as lightening bolt.
The only Full BABs are the ronin and the gunslinger (who is a little weak as it is) so maybe it's no so bad because the party isnt optimized and in one way or another, everyone is 'gimped'?
couple more levels and she will start to POP.
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I read your entire post and I agree with your ultimate conclusion. The reason that I quoted the first paragraph of your post is because it demonstrates the attitude that is seemingly status quo with the Paizo staff since it is already canon that firearms DO exist in Golorian.
No matter how much candy-coating is put on the notion of firearms in Pathfinder, there will be people who will never accept their existance in their game. These people will be less likely to buy supplements that feature guns, gunslingers or other advancements (cannons, grenades, machine guns, landmines, kobold suicide vests, etc...) of this "optional" subset of rules.
More troubling - it is possible that players will refuse to play in campaigns with each other based on the inclusion/exclusion of firearms (or drama that ensues during such debates). What is the wisdom of forcing the player-base into opposing camps and forcing them to battle this contentious point out before rolling a single die or setting the first scene?
The only alternate that I have heard that makes any sense is by a previous poster who suggested that firearms be featured in a seperate ruleset and in a later era of Golorian than the original "mainline" Pathfinder world. Hell, Paizo might sell way more books that way and be able to spin off an entirely new product line off it while mending any divide before it worsens.
Grognard.
Thanks for the read, it was way longer than I expected to write, and too way more time than I'd hoped.
I think the drama is what they hope will spur sales. Just like WotC wanted 4e to surprise their players and shake them up, and get them talking about 4e (no press is bad press, but even bad press can be good press) guns are the hottest topic in Pathfinder and that alone creates interest.
Drama is attention, and attention creates sales. If no one was reacting to the Gunslinger and guns, then it’d be a failure since no one cared. Compare the number and vitality of threads on the Gunslinger and Guns to the Magus, Samurai or Ninja and you can see why it’s in the book. The idea is that polarizing the player base will ultimately net more sales. While you (or I) may not like it, our players or GMs might, and so they’ll include them in their games and we’ll have to buy the books to stay current.
As to the general responses about Guns V Magic and Guns in Golarion, what everyone seems to forget is that guns in this world were a hit-and-miss affair in their development. Usually there was a spark of intuition here or there, or a singular advancement, but no real concerted effort until the modern age allowed for a level of communication and travel that facilitated rapid development by piggybacking on the last “big thing” to come along (in design, fabrication, etc.)
But, in Golarion you have far better global communication (by magic), transportation (teleportation), and you have the potential to have one 20+ Intelligence Gunsmith live for hundreds if not thousands of years. Think of everything Da Vinci did in his (relatively short) lifetime, or Colt, or Browning or any developer. Now think of him as a dwarf, an elf or a lich. What our world struggled to improve upon could all be accomplished by one man within his (unimaginably long) lifetime.
The old guns weren’t really an issue, and I rarely saw posts about them, nor did they enter any PFS or home game that I was ever a part of. But now they are front and center, and they are as much a part of Golarion and Pathfinder as is a +1 sword or anything else. And yet, unlike a sword, the gun has far more potential to outstrip any melee weapon and/or any magic. While we lack magic, the world-tipping power of guns is shown by modern firearms today, the old revolvers, repeating rifles, Gatling guns and cannons of the Civil War/Wild West, or even the old massed volleys of muskets and the deadly firepower of the blunderbuss.
Golarion is fiction, yes, and you can limit the power of guns by fiat—by Dev Decree, but that undermines the illusion of reality that games rely on to be internally consistent and that comes off as heavy handed and forced. While some people take the mechanics as primary and the setting as secondary, I don’t. I think the two (fluff and crunch) need to work together, or else the entire setting falls apart.
And, while the rules currently limit what impact guns will or can have, it’s what they *should do* to the world that’s the issue--Guns *should* dominate. If not at the moment the book is released, in a very short amount of time.
Just think of the golem-crafting that can be done, or the clockworks that can be created, and then think of magical forges and slaving elementals. None of these things were present in our world, yet despite that guns evolved very quickly over a few centuries--and that's barely the lifespan of a single dwarven or elven gunsmith.
And Magic should just aid in their development, not stymie it since there are magical means of communication and fabrication that should support the rapid development in ways we couldn’t do in the real world. And, this is ignoring all the alien intelligences, deities, demons and devils that you could ask for help (for your soul) with building and improving firearms. Guns ought to dominate, period.
And that’s why firearms should prove to be much more of a problem than they’re allowed or assumed to be…and that's why I don't want guns in the game...they are, literally, the game equivalent of Pandora's Box, opened and unleashed...
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And, to further unbalance things, what of the magic/technology cross-breeding?
What of Lightning Guns (1 charge per shot) and Cylinders of Holding (effectively unlimited ammo).
What of gun-armed anime style Golems (The Gun Golem), and (literal) self-propelled cannons? What of Lightning Gun Golems?
Again, the game wants to introduce guns into a vacuum, and not look at the larger picture. But they're not in a vacuum or separate from Golarion, they're part of the entire fabric of the world, and as such they're just as subject to Magical Item Creation as anything else--and so you're only limited by the creativity of your players or GM.
The only alternative is to ban all this by GM fiat, but why? Aren't the rules for item creation open to any and all items? Are guns somehow uniquely immune to being made magical?
We already have firearms that are the equivalent of those from the 16/1700s, and we have the Advanced (Cartridge) Firearms from the equivalent of the late 1800s, and there weren't Paladins in plate armor in either of those periods--and that's without magical enhancements (like the See Invisible scope).
From the late 1860s to the 1920s is a mere 60 years, but that gets us to the Maxim Gun, the M1911A, the M1919 Browning, and massive German Railroad guns (artillery). A few years later and we get the Thompson submachine gun, the M2 (.50 cal) Browning machine gun, a whole host of effective rifles and sniper (scoped) rifles and things like the German 88mm Flak Cannon and, oh yeah, tanks and most other modern equipment of war.
The problem is, the technology required to create cartridge ammunition didn't exist in a vacuum either. It relied upon advances in science that came from all other aspects of life--from chemicals to metallurgy to modern physics--and all these things *should* be lacking in a medieval fantasy setting.
Once you introduce near-modern technology (1860s gun tech), you're already way beyond what was known in the 9th-14th century, and you can't expect that it somehow only got channeled into firearms.
We may as well have steam trains, steam ships, hot air balloons, telegraphs and even light bulbs and electricity (plus what every adventure should love--flush toilets and running water!).
And, all of this is without Magic. Combine any/all of the above with the physics-breaking aspect of that and who knows what you'll end up with--but whatever it is, it won't be classic D&D/Fantasy.
I can even live with Feudal Japan's Ninja and Samurai somehow showing up in Golarion since they're at least close in technology and they're from a similar society to an occidental medieval setting, and Golarion does have all the generic versions of real/former world civilizations represented in some form or other.
But guns--and especially the advanced cartridge ones--I just can't see how they're supposed to fit. And, moreover, it seems to show a lack of genuine World Building since far-advanced ("future") technology is just dropped into Golarion, seemingly without care or concern to how those things ought to affect everything else.
You may as well go all Spelljammer and introduce space ships (other planets in Pathfinder are or were apparently inhabited), or we may as well all go play D20 Modern (with the D20 modern Magic supplement).
Or, we can play Pathfinder with the elephant in the room, and just try to ignore, restrict, or play around firearms and all the various issues they (should) introduce.
I know the gun-supporters will just say "Well, don't play with guns then", but that's missing the entire point. I will exclude guns from my game, I have to in order to keep the world internally consistent. But, once it's out there it will divide the community into gun-friendly and gun-free games.
And, I assume the majority will be gun-friendly because everyone will want to play the new cool class, and have the thrill of walking around a fantasy world with a dual-gun rig, but man, that is not the Pathfinder I signed up for.
I realize it's a done deal, and guns (even Advanced guns) are in the game, and I don't expect it to ever be changed. But man, it just seems that a lot of people ignored (are ignoring) the "Bigger Picture" of what this does (should do) to the world solely to get a "cool" new class. And that, to me at least, is very disappointing.
Valmar, all the elements you complain about have been in Golarion since at least Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. The hi-tech spaceship that crashed in Numeria, firearms in Alkenstar, Vudra and Tian-Xia...
The thing is, if you want your setting to be medieval fantasy, then Golarion wasn't your brand of vodka from it's very beginning. How about playing Dragonlance instead?
Pathfinder is pulp fantasy, with a wide range of inspirations. That includes gunslinging elf ninjas duking it out with spacefaring Aboleths, or what have you. If you don't like those elements in your campaign, feel free to ignore them, but complaining about their inclusion is a bit late.
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Valmar, all the elements you complain about have been in Golarion since at least Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. The hi-tech spaceship that crashed in Numeria, firearms in Alkenstar, Vudra and Tian-Xia...
The thing is, if you want your setting to be medieval fantasy, then Golarion wasn't your brand of vodka from it's very beginning. How about playing Dragonlance instead?
Pathfinder is pulp fantasy, with a wide range of inspirations. That includes gunslinging elf ninjas duking it out with spacefaring Aboleths, or what have you. If you don't like those elements in your campaign, feel free to ignore them, but complaining about their inclusion is a bit late.
He's not complaining, he's simply staing the fact that within a few years (not decades) guns will move from Emerging Guns (where Advanced Firearms ARE available) to Guns Everywhere, with guns then being MUCH cheaper and simple weapons.
And no one complained about the old Pathfinder guns because they didn't introduce a flawed mechanic into the game.
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OK to finally put this to rest....
both these guys were built with 20-points, and were what I feel to be an optimized character (meaning one I would play), could they be possibly power-skewed to one side more, maybe. But whatever.
Stats for both are STR 16, DEX 22, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 10
Fighter A (Ftr 10)
Init +10
AC 27 (T 18, FF 21)
HP 104
+2 comp longbow (+3 Str) +21/+16 (1d8+9/19-20/x3)
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: Longbow
Attack routine 1 - Basic Full Attack +21/+16 (1d8+9/19-20/x3) [avg. 14]
Attack routine 2 - Deadly Aim +18/+13 (1d8+15/19-20/x3) [avg. 20]
Attack routine 3 - Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11 (1d8+15/19-20/x3) [avg. 20]
Manyshot can be added to all attack routines for 1 extra attack at the highest bonus listed.
Gunlinger A (Gun10)
Init +12
AC 24 (T 15, FF 21)
HP 104
+2 revolver +20/+15 (1d8+8/19-20/x4)
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Extra Grit, Improved Critical: Revolver, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Revolver, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Revolver
Attack routine 1 - Basic Full Attack +20/+15 (1d8+8/19-20/x4) [avg. 13]
Attack routine 2 - Deadly Aim +17/+12 (1d8+14/19-20/x4) [avg. 19]
Attack routine 3 - Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +15/+15/+10 (1d8+14/19-20/x3) [avg. 19]
First I'm not seeing the low damage that is being reported for the gunslinger it seems to me that he averages 1 less point.
Oppents: The first CR 12 monsters listed in the Beastiary 1
Adult copper dragon: AC 29 (T 10)
Yeah were gonna assume that all attacks are made with 100 feet to be fair to both contestants.
Fighter goes...
Attack routine 1 - Basic Full Attack +21/+16 [avg. 14]
with 5's he misses twice (or thrice) for 0 damage
with 10's he hits once for 14 damage (or twice for 28)
with 15's he hits twice for 28 damage (or thrice 32)
Attack routine 2 - Deadly Aim +18/+13 (1d8+15/19-20/x3) [avg. 20]
with 5's he misses twice (or thrice) for 0 damage
with 10's he misses twice (or thrice) for 0 damage
with 15's he hits once for 20 damage (or twice 40)
Attack routine 3 - Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11 (1d8+15/19-20/x3) [avg. 20]
with 5's he misses all three (or four) times for 0 damage
with 10's he misses all three (or four) times for 0 damage
with 15's he hits twice for 40 damage (or thrice for 60)
with all 20's he deals 180 damage (or 240)
Gunner goes...
Attack routine 1 - Basic Full Attack +20/+15 (1d8+8/19-20/x4) [avg. 13]
with 5's he hits twice for 26 damage
with 10's he hits twice for 26 damage
with 15's he hits twice for 26 damage
Attack routine 2 - Deadly Aim +17/+12 (1d8+14/19-20/x4) [avg. 19]
with 5's he hits twice for 38 damage
with 10's he hits twice for 38 damage
with 15's he hits twice for 38 damage
Attack routine 3 - Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +15/+15/+10 (1d8+14/19-20/x4) [avg. 19]
with 5's he hits thrice for 57 damage
with 10's he hits thrice for 57 damage
with 15's he hits thrice for 57 damage
with all 20's he deals 228 damage
So the gunslinger can go ahead and use all his tricks and deal 57 damage every round. While the fighter has to quit using his tricks to hit reliably for less damage or roll good to deal slightly more damage.
Sure the fighter can sacrifice DEX for STR for more damage, the gunslinger can sacrifice STR for DEX for maore damage too.
With poor rolls the Gunlinger does more damage.
With average rolls the Gunslinger does more damage.
With good rolls the Fighter does slightly more damage (with an additional Feat to help).
Thank you! Now we have builds to work with and can make comparisons!
First question: The revolver is an advanced firearm, correct? So by using an advanced firearm, do you acknowledge that using basic firearms only is NOT unbalanced (i.e., you crunched the numbers with a pistol and found the gunslinger was worse)?
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I thought we were done with this thread.
Overdark, stop citing advanced firearms. They're near artifact level. They exist only if the GM wills it. The playtest says the may exist . You can't just say "I'm in Katapesh, they've got everything." They don't. If they do, my sphere of annihilation takes care of business better... or my 20th caster level intensified scorching ray staff. 5 rays, each 4d6, each a touch attack. And that's not even an artifact.
Pointing to something not available without express GM permission isn't a valid argument. Compare it to an artifact or other item that GMs must expressly allow.
There have been rational arguments presented against touch attacks. To those who have presented them, thank you. Nothing above is directed at anything you have said. Overdark, you have presented none. Do so or leave the discussion as it stands.
I don't like being this rude, but there's a line, and your refusal to acknowledge anything that goes on in this thread outside of what helps you is just too much.
And yet here you are being that rude. Thats ok, I can take it. Really. So lets begin...
Advanced firearms aren't any where near artifact level. Only the rules for Very Rare Guns specifically prohibit advanced firearms. The Emerging Guns does indeed say 'may'. Since that word doesn't appear in the first Campaign Setting does that mean that revolvers and rifles(which were available then) suddenly disappeared? Really?And even without advanced firearms, all the balancing factors that you guys like to parrot (misfires, cost, low damage) are all erased by the Gunslinger.
Katapesh does indeed have everything. Read the 2 or 3 books on the place. A sphere of annihilation IS an artifact, and even then without ANOTHER artifact someone can take it away and annihilate you with it.
Guns are just expensive mundane items. Sure your average joe can't buy one, but like I said before PC's arent your average joes. And 2000 gold isn't a barrier to anyone over 4th leve (or so).
Intensified spell doesn't give you more rays for scorching ray. It adds to the damage dice of spells. Scorching ray isn't limited by its damage dice its limited by its number of rays. Fireball can be Intensified. Scorching Ray can't be (well I guess technically it can be, it just doen't change anything). Polar Ray can be Intensified. Magic Missle can't. Get it.
Using the ACs you listed, I got 27 DPR for the fighter and 54 for the gunslinger. That's with Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and Deadly Aim.
Then I took the first CR 12 enemy listed alphabetically in the PFSRD: the Akhana. AC 27, touch 18.
Again, going all-out, the fighter has a DPR of 35, and the gunslinger has a DPR of 47.
Last enemy in the CR 12 listing is taiga giant. AC 26, touch 14. Fighter has 39 DPR, gunslinger has 52.
Clear advantage to the gunslinger all the way around.
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Thank you! Now we have builds to work with and can make comparisons!
First question: The revolver is an advanced firearm, correct? So by using an advanced firearm, do you acknowledge that using basic firearms only is NOT unbalanced (i.e., you crunched the numbers with a pistol and found the gunslinger was worse)?
No with a pistol the Gunslinger character still functions exaclty the same. I used the revolver simply because at 10th level, the gunslinger would have one.
And even without advanced firearms, all the balancing factors that you guys like to parrot (misfires, cost, low damage) are all erased by the Gunslinger.
I'll ask the question a second time in case you missed it the first time -- is it only advanced firearms that allow you to make an overpowered gunslinger? I consider this an important question, since it may determine what sort of firearms I allow in my games.
No with a pistol the Gunslinger character still functions exaclty the same.
Same number of attacks and same damage?
The math here is very convincing. If you can get the gunslinger damage per shot up to near the bow-wielder damage per shot and can reload as a free action, then by mid-level the difference between AC and touch AC more than makes up for Manyshot.
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And even without advanced firearms, all the balancing factors that you guys like to parrot (misfires, cost, low damage) are all erased by the Gunslinger.I'll ask the question a second time in case you missed it the first time -- is it only advanced firearms that allow you to make an overpowered gunslinger? I consider this an important question, since it may determine what sort of firearms I allow in my games.
No it isn't, advanced firearms just make it worse. Since they remove all the flaws for all characters.
And again *sigh* Golarion has advanced firearms. If you don't want them in your world fine, if you don't want longswords in your world you can do that too. Just saying 'if you don't like it don't use it' is just admitting that a problem exists and not wanting to talk about rationally. I think (after running 3) that the Summoner is kinda broken too (2 characters in 1), just refusing to talk about it is silly.
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No with a pistol the Gunslinger character still functions exaclty the same.Same number of attacks and same damage?
The Gunslinger CAN get the same number of attacks and damage... but only if he uses Alchemical Cartridges, which increases the chance of getting a misfire unless the gun is enchanted with a special property, and can get quite costly over time (those three shots would come up to 60 gp per round).
Additionally, I was under the impression that DPR tests were conducted against at-level CRs (i.e., Level 10 Fighter/Gunslinger vs. CR 10). Am I mistaken?
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The math here is very convincing. If you can get the gunslinger damage per shot up to near the bow-wielder damage per shot and can reload as a free action, then by mid-level the difference between AC and touch AC more than makes up for Manyshot.
Level 10 guys don't fight CR 10 monsters, and if they do they totally own them (except in large numbers).
Level 10 guys fight CR 12-13 monsters one on one.
Yep.No with a pistol the Gunslinger character still functions exaclty the same.Same number of attacks and same damage?
I just checked the rules for myself. Definitely not. You're getting your full round of attacks with the revolver, whereas with a pistol it would be a move action to reload.
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He's not complaining, he's simply stating the fact that within a few years (not decades) guns will move from Emerging Guns (where Advanced Firearms ARE available) to Guns Everywhere, with guns then being MUCH cheaper and simple weapons.
And no one complained about the old Pathfinder guns because they didn't introduce a flawed mechanic into the game.
Exactly.
I signed on to play the heir to the fantasy tradition of 3.5 "Dungeons and Dragons", not this new game "Dungeons and Dragoons" that is emerging. I could DM-fiat guns out of the game, but as someone who rejects the inclusion of firearms in this particular genre, it is simpler to refuse to buy material that includes firearms or gunslingers.
Yeah, I won't be buying the book either. And it's not for anything like a "punitive" response, or because I'm angry--as I do realize that Paizo needs to push products to make profits--but simply because it will be much easier as a GM (or player) to simply skip it all.
Not to mention that the pistol's increment range is 20 feet.
Yeah, sorry. There's not any balance issue here without the revolver.
Glad they're optional.
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I just checked the rules for myself. Definitely not. You're getting your full round of attacks with the revolver, whereas with a pistol it would be a move action to reload.Yep.No with a pistol the Gunslinger character still functions exaclty the same.Same number of attacks and same damage?
Rapid Reload: Pistol instead of Revolver
and Paper Cartriges.
OK to finally put this to rest....
both these guys were built with 20-points, and were what I feel to be an optimized character (meaning one I would play), could they be possibly power-skewed to one side more, maybe. But whatever.
Stats for both are STR 16, DEX 22, CON 16, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 10Fighter A (Ftr 10)
Init +10
AC 27 (T 18, FF 21)
HP 104
+2 comp longbow (+3 Str) +21/+16 (1d8+9/19-20/x3)
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Critical: Longbow, Improved Initiative, Manyshot, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: Longbow, Weapon Specialization: LongbowAttack routine 1 - Basic Full Attack +21/+16 (1d8+9/19-20/x3) [avg. 14]
Attack routine 2 - Deadly Aim +18/+13 (1d8+15/19-20/x3) [avg. 20]
Attack routine 3 - Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +16/+16/+11 (1d8+15/19-20/x3) [avg. 20]
Manyshot can be added to all attack routines for 1 extra attack at the highest bonus listed.Gunlinger A (Gun10)
Init +12
AC 24 (T 15, FF 21)
HP 104
+2 revolver +20/+15 (1d8+8/19-20/x4)
Feats Deadly Aim -3/+6, Extra Grit, Improved Critical: Revolver, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload: Revolver, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus: RevolverAttack routine 1 - Basic Full Attack +20/+15 (1d8+8/19-20/x4) [avg. 13]
Attack routine 2 - Deadly Aim +17/+12 (1d8+14/19-20/x4) [avg. 19]
Attack routine 3 - Deadly Aim and Rapid Shot +15/+15/+10 (1d8+14/19-20/x3) [avg. 19]First I'm not seeing the low damage that is being reported for the gunslinger it seems to me that he averages 1 less point.
Oppents: The first CR 12 monsters listed in the Beastiary 1
Adult copper dragon: AC 29 (T 10)
Yeah were gonna assume that all attacks are made with 100 feet to be fair to both contestants.Fighter goes...
Attack routine 1 - Basic Full Attack +21/+16 [avg. 14]
with 5's he misses twice (or thrice) for 0 damage
with 10's he hits once for 14 damage (or twice for 28)
with 15's he hits twice for 28 damage (or thrice 32)
Attack routine 2 - Deadly Aim +18/+13...
First of all, since you claim to be solely interested in Golarion setting, what part of "advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items" do you believe makes it certain you'll be able to get a revolver?
"may" != "does"
Second, dragons have unusually high AC for their CR, and some of the lowest touch ACs, so your chosen enemy heavily skews the odds in favor of the gunslinger. Let's use the "DPR Olympics" guidelines instead.
CR 10 monsters usually have 24 AC. Since there is no standardized Touch AC per CR, I'll use the average of highest and lowest touch AC for core CR 10 monsters as an approximation.
Lowest touch AC: Whale 4
Highest touch AC: Nereid 25
Average (round down): 14
Now, we have a better baseline for comparison, one that will better simulate the average performance over the span of many adventures.
Having established that, let me crunch the numbers into my Deadliest Warrior (tm) simulation engine...
Fighter DPR with DA,RS and Manyshot: 55,77
Gunslinger DPR with DA and RS: 66,14
Not that impressive a difference. Especially considering on the first page of the DPR Olympics thread we have an archer fighter doing 68,25. That's still more than the gunslinger.
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Not to mention that the pistol's increment range is 20 feet.
Yeah, sorry. There's not any balance issue here without the revolver.
Glad they're optional.
When you examine the guns in these one gunslinger/versus one monsters situations you lose sight of the fact that when the Gunslinger replaces the Ranger in a party and hides behind his Fighter buddy the 20-foot range of the pistol doesn't matter unless the monster is gargantuan or colossal.
And again *sigh* Golarion has advanced firearms.
You cannot just go to the market and buy an advanced firearm in Golarion.
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Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. ... Early
firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Gunslingers
must take the Craft Firearms feat just to make them feasible
weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and
wondrous items.
"Rare and wondrous items" are neither rare nor wondrous to Adventurers.
"Wondrous Items" (as magic items) are fairly common by even the low-to-mid levels, let alone high-level characters.
Certainly a 10th Level Gunslinger should/would/could have (multiple) Advanced Firearms.
It's in no way unreasonable to think that's possible, and, by extension, to assume that nearly every 10th Level Gunslinger would have (multiple) Advanced Firearms.
It's no more unreasonable than to think that by 10th Level most all characters will have multiple magic items of equivalent power/level/value.
When you examine the guns in these one gunslinger/versus one monsters situations you lose sight of the fact that when the Gunslinger replaces the Ranger in a party and hides behind his Fighter buddy the 20-foot range of the pistol doesn't matter unless the monster is gargantuan or colossal.
Once you have to be within 20 feet to get certain damage effects, we need to be comparing the character's damage with melee rather than ranged characters.
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When you examine the guns in these one gunslinger/versus one monsters situations you lose sight of the fact that when the Gunslinger replaces the Ranger in a party and hides behind his Fighter buddy the 20-foot range of the pistol doesn't matter unless the monster is gargantuan or colossal.Once you have to be within 20 feet to get certain damage effects, we need to be comparing the character's damage with melee rather than ranged characters.
Why?
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And again *sigh* Golarion has advanced firearms.You cannot just go to the market and buy an advanced firearm in Golarion.
Really why not? I can go down to the market and buy a suit of mithril full plate, for 10,500 gp. Why can't I buy something that costs 1/5 that price. Provided the GP limit of the town supports that.
And if you don't think that Mithril Full Plate is 'rare and wondrous' then I would like to know what is.
Now, we have a better baseline for comparison, one that will better simulate the average performance over the span of many adventures.Really, why not use a real monster in stead of a number you just made up. Come on.
Because a real monster is a tiny fraction of different enemies you will encounter during the campaign, whereas averaged numbers show your average performance against various monsters of the appropriate CR, and thus are more representative of the character's overall performance in the course of the adventure.
If you insist on trying an actual monster, why not try them against the Nereid instead? Oh look, they both attack against the same AC when fighting her, so the fighter comes out better! See what I did here?
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Now, we have a better baseline for comparison, one that will better simulate the average performance over the span of many adventures.Really, why not use a real monster in stead of a number you just made up. Come on.Because a real monster is a tiny fraction of different enemies you will encounter during the campaign, whereas averaged numbers show your average performance against various monsters of the appropriate CR, and thus are more representative of the character's overall performance in the course of the adventure.
If you insist on trying an actual monster, why not try them against the Nereid instead? Oh look, they both attack against the same AC when fighting her, so the fighter comes out better! See what I did here?
Sure, against the small portion of monsters that actually have a decent touch AC, they both hit the same. The bow fighter gets to do his 2 more points of damage. Wow.
Against the majority of monsters, their touch AC is worse than their normal AC.
So if you want to average it out its more like 75% of the time the gun user is targeting a much lower number than his non-gun wielding counterpart.
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CR 12
Adult copper dragon AC 29 (T 10)
Adult green dragon AC 27 (T 8)
Lich AC 23 (T 14)
Purple Worm AC 26 (T 4)
Roper AC 27 (T 10)
Sea Serpent AC 25 (T 8)
CR 10 (since this is what you posit)
Bebilith AC 22 (T 9)
Brachiosaurus AC 18 (T 6)
Clay Golem AC 24 (T 8)
Couatl AC 22 (T 13)
Fire Giant AC 23 (T 8)
Giant Flytrap AC 22 (T 12)
Guardian Naga AC 24 (T 15)
Rakshasa AC 25 (T 16)
Red Dragon (young) AC 22 (T 10)
Silver Dragon (young) AC 22 (T 10)
White Dragon (adult) AC 27 (T 10)
CR 10 average touch AC 10.63, average CR 12 touch AC 9.
Real numbers. Real averages.
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Now, we have a better baseline for comparison, one that will better simulate the average performance over the span of many adventures.Really, why not use a real monster in stead of a number you just made up. Come on.Because a real monster is a tiny fraction of different enemies you will encounter during the campaign, whereas averaged numbers show your average performance against various monsters of the appropriate CR, and thus are more representative of the character's overall performance in the course of the adventure.
If you insist on trying an actual monster, why not try them against the Nereid instead? Oh look, they both attack against the same AC when fighting her, so the fighter comes out better! See what I did here?
Excpet when I use average numbers as an assumption for dice rolls.
Come on you can't have it both ways. Either except the use of averages or don't.The core mechanic of the game is built on the assumption that an average roll (10) will grant success in average situations.
If one guy needs a 15 and one guy needs a 5, simply due to a piece of mundane equipment. That's not balanced. With similar pieces of equipment (bow/crossbow vs. a gun) this is exaclt what happens.
Mundane equipment, not magic, not anything.
They start out on unequal footing, adding magic isn't going to balance them since they can both be enhanced (and guns get new special enhancements too)
In the magic should trump mundane viewpoint, guns trump magic armor, magic dragon hide.
Now, we have a better baseline for comparison, one that will better simulate the average performance over the span of many adventures.Really, why not use a real monster in stead of a number you just made up. Come on.Because a real monster is a tiny fraction of different enemies you will encounter during the campaign, whereas averaged numbers show your average performance against various monsters of the appropriate CR, and thus are more representative of the character's overall performance in the course of the adventure.
If you insist on trying an actual monster, why not try them against the Nereid instead? Oh look, they both attack against the same AC when fighting her, so the fighter comes out better! See what I did here?
Excpet when I use average numbers to as an assumption for dice rolls.
Come on you can't have it both ways. Either except the use of averages or don't.
Averaging the AC values for a given CR allows you to logically assess the character's average performance over the course of multiple CR-appropriate encounters, in a way that's consistent with the game's mathematical model.
Assuming average roll value is just throwing random numbers around in a way that's not consistent with the game's mathematical model. Again, d20 rolls have a flat probability curve, so the only thing you can logically assume about a single d20 roll is that it will generate a number between 1 and 20.
That's why the formula for calculating DPR doesn't concern itself with the d20 roll directly, but rather calculates the probability of rolling high enough to meet the AC value.
I've done my homework on the metagame. I suggest you do the same.
EDIT: Yes, the game has a take 10 rule. This rule doesn't apply in combat at all, and thus has no bearing on DPR calculations.
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First, it's really cool that you've provided builds. I won't even really critique them. Thanks.
We've been wanting to use the DPR Olympics rules on some builds for...well, awhile now.
I've used Tejon's Damage Calculator (I am not a pro at it - other who are more experienced are welcome to correct my figures below) on the builds you provided, using a Target AC of 24, which, as pointed out in the DPR Olympics thread, is the standard for CR 10 encounters. To determine touch AC, I averaged all creatures in the Bestiary with an AC of 24. The average is 11.4, I used 11. To be honest, I don't really care whether or not you like those choices regarding target AC and Touch attack. They're the standards that this community had used for a long time, and honestly, the touch attack bit = advantage Gunslinger. I used point blank shot, because I’m not sure why you’re giving both characters the feat and then putting them outside the range of its effectiveness.
For the Fighter, I get a DPR of 59.86 - The optimal routine uses deadly aim and rapid shot. A +1 to attack is worth 4.72, A +1 to damage is worth 2.92, and an extra attack is worth 17.22.
For the Gunslinger I get a DPR of 72.25 - Naturally, the optimal routine uses Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim. A +1 to attack is worth nothing – he’s hitting on every shot already – and a +1 to damage is worth 3.71. An extra attack is worth 24.08.
If we give the fighter Critical Focus instead of, like, dodge or Mobility, he's up to 62.32, but yeah, he's clearly behind. And the gunslinger is actually on the high end of the damage curve for pretty much all combatants.
What's funny is that the easiest fix to the problem isn't at all to make the gunslinger target normal AC. In fact, if he does that, he's at a DPR of 39.29, which is just silly bad for a full-BaB class. The answer is to change gun training to give half the dex bonus to damage instead of the full dex bonus. If you change the bonus provided by gun training to +3 instead of +6, the 'slinger is now doing 61.13 DPR, which is pretty well in line.
So yeah, I'll put that forward as a recommendation. Gun Training = 1/2 Dex bonus to AC, not full Dex Bonus to AC. Because the 'slinger is hitting so often, the only way to REALLY cheese it out is by stacking as many static damage modifiers as possible, and Gun Training is a big part of that problem.
tldr; Thanks for the builds, it's all anyone was ever really asking for. I'm not at all going to conceed that the touch AC mechanic is broken, instead Gun Training needs a slight nerf.
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Again, d20 rolls have a flat probability curve, so the only thing you can logically assume about a single d20 roll is that it will generate a number between 1 and 20.
I've done my homework on the metagame. I suggest you do the same.
EDIT: Yes, the game has a take 10 rule. This rule doesn't apply in combat at all, and thus has no bearing on DPR calculations.
Any single die roll has a flat probability curve, when you average out multiple dice roll for any die size you still get a bell curve.
Yes 1d20 roll equal oppotunity for each number (5%)20d20 is gonna average out in the 9-11 range.
Which is why the game is built on a foundation of 10. I didn't mention taking 10, I'm talking about averages. You can do all the math and simulations you want, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that when I sit down at the table and start rolling my d20's that I'm gonna roll some low numbers, I'm also gonna roll some high numbers, but at the end of the day all those rolls are gonna average out somewhere around 9-11.
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Assuming average roll value is just throwing random numbers around in a way that's not consistent with the game's mathematical model. Again, d20 rolls have a flat probability curve, so the only thing you can logically assume about a single d20 roll is that it will generate a number between 1 and 20.
I've done my homework on the metagame. I suggest you do the same.
EDIT: Yes, the game has a take 10 rule. This rule doesn't apply in combat at all, and thus has no bearing on DPR calculations.
Yes a single die roll (any die) has a flat probability curve. Multiple dice (of any size) have a bell curve. Which gives you an average of 9-11 for a d20.
I never said you could take 10 in combat, I was merely stating the fact that the game is built on a foundation of assuming 10 to gauge success.
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Assuming average roll value is just throwing random numbers around in a way that's not consistent with the game's mathematical model. Again, d20 rolls have a flat probability curve, so the only thing you can logically assume about a single d20 roll is that it will generate a number between 1 and 20.
I've done my homework on the metagame. I suggest you do the same.
EDIT: Yes, the game has a take 10 rule. This rule doesn't apply in combat at all, and thus has no bearing on DPR calculations.
Yes a single die roll (any die) has a flat probability curve. Multiple dice (of any size) have a bell curve. Which gives you an average of 9-11 for a d20.
I never said you could take 10 in combat, I was merely stating the fact that the game is built on a foundation of assuming 10 to gauge success.
Sorry, but that is flat out 100% incorrect. It only has a bell curve distribution it you are using it additively. Each d20 roll is an independent statistical even. It is not additive, so it retains the flat distribution.
Besides which, the d20 roll is used to determine if it succeeds. If you need to rolla 19 to succeed, your analyssi would mean you would never succeed, whereas in reality you would succeed 10% of the time.
Thus, using averages to determine the outcome (hit/miss) is massively inferior to using a proper prbablistic multiplier as is done in the DPR Olympics.