We're preparing for Carrion Crown, and a friend came up with the fantastic concept of a dhampir paladin. Since the paladin's lay on hands and channels actually hurt the dhampir - the flavor is self-punishment "for the sins of my father!".
The question is, how can the character grow from that basis? I'm interested in how to cope with low-levels (say up to level 7) - and the low hitpoints (relevant since this is supposed to be a melee paladin).
Anybody got great story or mechanical directions to use?
|
We're preparing for Carrion Crown, and a friend came up with the fantastic concept of a dhampir paladin. Since the paladin's lay on hands and channels actually hurt the dhampir - the flavor is self-punishment "for the sins of my father!".
The question is, how can the character grow from that basis? I'm interested in how to cope with low-levels (say up to level 7) - and the low hitpoints (relevant since this is supposed to be a melee paladin).
Anybody got great story or mechanical directions to use?
Why does the paladin's lay on hands hurt the dhampir?
I don't think Lay on Hands' description mentions positive energy. Cure spells would, but the paladin is uniquely suited to healing herself.
Why does the paladin's lay on hands hurt the dhampir?
I don't think Lay on Hands' description mentions positive energy. Cure spells would, but the paladin is uniquely suited to healing herself.
A paladins lay on hands can specifically be used to harm undead, so it should follow that Dhampir would harm themselves by the use of it.
However, the ability does not specify that it is a positive energy effect so really a judge could go either way with a ruling on that...
|
We're preparing for Carrion Crown, and a friend came up with the fantastic concept of a dhampir paladin. Since the paladin's lay on hands and channels actually hurt the dhampir - the flavor is self-punishment "for the sins of my father!".
The question is, how can the character grow from that basis? I'm interested in how to cope with low-levels (say up to level 7) - and the low hitpoints (relevant since this is supposed to be a melee paladin).
Anybody got great story or mechanical directions to use?
Why does the paladin's lay on hands hurt the dhampir?
I don't think Lay on Hands' description mentions positive energy. Cure spells would, but the paladin is uniquely suited to healing herself.
Whether this is true or not, healing doesn't have to feel good. Maybe healing himself with the ability (if it does indeed work that way) actually feels painful. Very painful.
Either way this character would definitely fit the "Pennance" style of Paladin rather well. This character would likely take many actions that cause undue harm to themselves (whether mechanical or fluff) with the excuse that they are still paying penance for some sin, whether their own or another's. This type is generally willing to die for someone with even less than normal prompting as it would be viewed as a complete absolution of the sin.
You should try slightly re-theming all of the paladin's abilities without changing the mechanic. Maybe they have to bleed on their weapon to imbue it (Weapon Bond) and Lay on Hands causes physical pain proportional to the healing supplied (much less when used for another than when used for themselves). That sort of thing.
Lay on hands has always been a positive energy affect. That is why it can heal living creature, but it harms undead. That is always why it can be used to channel energy by expending 2 uses of it.
|
|
I think that having the lay on hands work normally for healing other people would be fine. Now if he is healing himself... that becomes tricky as the paladin can heal them selves as a swift action would he then take full damage? If so this would make the lay on hands completely useless for self healing. So possibly having the lay on hands only heal for half if the player is cool with that would be an alternative. All of the mercies would work normally.
Or alternatively you could start out the game by having his lay on hands only heal undead as per a cursed aspect of his vampiric blood. Of course this would get removed later as he embraces the more human side of him and would also serve as a driving force to distance himself from his fathers legacy.
Enjoy.
|
We're preparing for Carrion Crown, and a friend came up with the fantastic concept of a dhampir paladin. Since the paladin's lay on hands and channels actually hurt the dhampir - the flavor is self-punishment "for the sins of my father!".
The question is, how can the character grow from that basis? I'm interested in how to cope with low-levels (say up to level 7) - and the low hitpoints (relevant since this is supposed to be a melee paladin).
Anybody got great story or mechanical directions to use?
Why does the paladin's lay on hands hurt the dhampir?
I don't think Lay on Hands' description mentions positive energy. Cure spells would, but the paladin is uniquely suited to healing herself.
Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal
1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targetsherself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
No mention of it being positive energy so it would be dependent on if the dhampir would still be considered undead...
We're preparing for Carrion Crown, and a friend came up with the fantastic concept of a dhampir paladin. Since the paladin's lay on hands and channels actually hurt the dhampir - the flavor is self-punishment "for the sins of my father!".
The question is, how can the character grow from that basis? I'm interested in how to cope with low-levels (say up to level 7) - and the low hitpoints (relevant since this is supposed to be a melee paladin).
Anybody got great story or mechanical directions to use?
Why does the paladin's lay on hands hurt the dhampir?
I don't think Lay on Hands' description mentions positive energy. Cure spells would, but the paladin is uniquely suited to healing herself.
Lay On Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal
1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets
herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.No mention of it being positive energy so it would be dependent on if the dhampir would still be considered undead...
They are not undead, but because of negative energy affinity they are harmed by positive energy, and healed by negative energy.
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature alive, but reacts to positive and negative energy as if it were undead— positive energy harms it, negative energy heals it.
Just to clarify: our GM indicated that the lay-on-hands is definitely a positive energy effect as far as he's concerned; so the dhampir paladin would be hurting himself if he uses it on himself.
The good news is that two of the archetypes add additional uses for the lay-on-hands: the warrior of the holy light can create a cool party buff (but produces light, another thing that is anathema for our dhampir paladin) - however the divine defender can use the lay-on-hands to give a party-AC buff. So at least there's some use to the lays (other than healing other people or hurting undead).
I'm curious to see what kind of mechanical concepts can be used to offset some of the weaknesses of the character.
- A good thing: dervish dance emphasizes the racial dexterity gained by the dhampir; at the cost of level 1 and level 3 feats
- The -2 to constitution is painful to cope with, as the character is intended to be melee focused
- Oh, and our GM is making it a 15pt buy game - to really drill the horror into our skulls
In the long run, Holy Vindicator would be something to look at.
Lay on hands should be a positive energy effect.
Reminds me of how the fey bloodline's laughing touch wasn't listed as a mind effecting ability. Meaning that as it was written you could make golems and undead, even slimes laugh. Of course everyone should know its a mind effecting ability. And it is going to be fixed. In much the same way, I think everyone can assume that lay on hands is a positive energy effect.
Whether this is true or not, healing doesn't have to feel good. Maybe healing himself with the ability (if it does indeed work that way) actually feels painful. Very painful.
Either way this character would definitely fit the "Pennance" style of Paladin rather well. This character would likely take many actions that cause undue harm to themselves (whether mechanical or fluff) with the excuse that they are still paying penance for some sin, whether their own or another's. This type is generally willing to die for someone with even less than normal prompting as it would be viewed as a complete absolution of the sin.
To this end, you could even have the Paladin take levels in the Holy Vindicator Prestige Class (ADVPG). While taking it as a Paladin is not as optimal as a Cleric taking levels in the class, the Holy Vindicator's entire schtick is literally cutting themselves for holy powers. Fits this character perfectly.
I don't have my Bestiary 2 sitting right next to me, but I think the Dhampir trait says that the character is harmed by Positive Energy as if they were undead. Even if Lay on Hands damages undead, unless it specifically says it is a Positive Energy effect, it wouldn't apply to the ability.
Save a Word of God from James Jacobs or the like, of course :).
here's the difficulty with a dhampir paladin "hurting himself".
Cannot simultaneously be filled with evil so bad positive energy works on himself, and so good he's able to channel it.
He is one or other, So he would have to lose one ability or feature to gain the other.
Personally, If allowing this character, and his god accepted/called him as a paladin, then I would say the character has an ability similar to the tiefling ability in bastards of erebus, ie "healed by both positive and negative energy". His body responds to the negative energy his spirit responds to the positive energy.,, or some such thing.
This allows both aspects to exist, without counterbalancing each other, and would be the diety's way of "fighting fire with fire" so to speak as the pally would be immune to energy drain and several of the enemies "signature" attacks, all the while, his own powers of good still working against the powers of darkness.
I would say such a character would get reknown quickly in the inner circle of evility amoung the powers that be (the draw back for this type of character) and there would be lots of temptations set in his path (above and beyond whats written int he AP) to 'turn to the darkside' become an anti-paladin, join us... skywalker style. Because essentially this is the type of character he's building, super good with a touch of bad inside that makes him even harder to defeat.
Does he turn to the darkness? we shall see.
I would toss several 'offers' his way of powerful magic items well beyond his WBL from NPCs that just 'happen to find him' and maybe eventually a powerful magic weapon that just happens to be the kind he wields. Make it intelligent, and evil, give it some kind of shroud or ability or even a scrying by a powerful evil guy on it that when it's detected on, or even identified, that it's harder to discover it's "secret abilities" and therefor he might use it, be cursed by it and etc etc,
That would just be the fluff way of balancing out something this powerful.
His detec evil would be a little sketchy sometimes too, maybe give him sense motive DCs for it work right since he has some "interference" from his own gene pool. (deep down desires for sentient being blood should cause a little static, no matter how much he tries to fight the urge)
|
The problem you're gonna run into if the DM keeps his "Dhampir gets hurt with Positive Energy" thing is that your Paladin WILL NEVER GET HEALED.
The Cleric can't Channel energy to cure him. Cure spells won't do it. Lay on Hands won't do it.
WTF?
Hope you guys got a Monk who can heal you cuz otherwise you'll NEVER HEAL.
I think that the DM needs to allow positive energy to heal your Dhampir. No, not even "I think..." -- your DM needs to allow positive energy to heal you (and Negative to harm).
Looking at the Dhampir Racial features it would be no biggie to alter one or two things as needed for play as a PC.
|
|
Hope you guys got a Monk who can heal you cuz otherwise you'll NEVER HEAL.
Huh? Dhampirs are healed by Negative Energy. All the Cleric has to do is prepare a few Inflict spells. Or get a Wand of Inflict Light Wounds. Is that annoying? Possibly. Game-breakingly awful? Not so much.
Better make sure that the party Cleric has Selective Channeling if he's gonna be combat channeling, though.
I find it kinda stupid that people think that all healing effects are positive energy..
You don't heal hp over night because you generated positive energy. Accelerating your bodies ability to reconstruct itself shouldn't be positive energy either.
But the work around this, since he is living, Chill touch.
|
|
All the Cleric has to do is prepare a few Inflict spells. Or get a Wand of Inflict Light Wounds.
That's true -- I probably didn't think of it cuz I don't allow good Clerics to use Inflict Spells.
Even still, it seems not cool that the Cleric has to use spell slots for one member of the party -- and Pathfinder made Channeling so that he could get everyone at one.
The wand is cool -- I'd make the Dhampir pay for it, though, if I were the Cleric. (We always have Happy Sticks come from the party fund.)
|
|
That's true -- I probably didn't think of it cuz I don't allow good Clerics to use Inflict Spells.
Even still, it seems not cool that the Cleric has to use spell slots for one member of the party -- and Pathfinder made Channeling so that he could get everyone at one.
Yeah, he's pretty much not gonna get healed in combat. Which sucks. It's not a game-breaker, but I'd probably give him something to make up for it if I were the GM.
Thoug, honestly, I would go with the idea that Lay on Hands isn't exactly positive energy and works fine to heal the Dhampir.
The wand is cool -- I'd make the Dhampir pay for it, though, if I were the Cleric. (We always have Happy Sticks come from the party fund.)
Oh, absolutely, but since it's only being used on him, it'll last quite a bit longer. I'd also give him a share of what he would've spend on the party's Happy Stick to put towards it. Just to be fair.
I find it kinda stupid that people think that all healing effects are positive energy..
You don't heal hp over night because you generated positive energy. Accelerating your bodies ability to reconstruct itself shouldn't be positive energy either.
But the work around this, since he is living, Chill touch.
All(99%) magic healing is with positive energy is the point. Of course regeneration and fast healing don't generate magical positive energy.
|
On making the dhampir pay for his own lifeline via wands: Keep in mind that if dhampir paladins can't use Lay on Hands on themselves, they're going to be using that ability almost exclusively on their companions.
Just seems like the rest of the party, which ostensibly cares about whether the dhampir lives or dies, could chip in a buck or two. That's what we're going to be doing for our dhampir paladin, but then again we're all family in-game.
|
|
On making the dhampir pay for his own lifeline via wands: Keep in mind that if dhampir paladins can't use Lay on Hands on themselves, they're going to be using that ability almost exclusively on their companions.
Ooh, excellent point. One I hadn't considered. Yeah, that should definitely come from part funds. If he's healing the others 10d6+ a day (which he will be by the time this is an option, i.e. 4th level).
I was going to make a dhampir pally in a campaign, and go with the scarred hands and pain when doing LoH. However, the DM also wanted the paladin to take damage while healing. That was a bit overkill for me for giving up a healing myself.
So, we talked about a dhampir celestial sorcerer. For some reason it was okay to shoot a ray of healing energy O.o. And, I am still going with the scarred hands, and also picking up the trait that lets me brew a potion from another class's list. (inflict light wounds) Just to have some built in healing available relatively quickly. Of course, the other choice was to be evil celestial sorcerer *shrugs* but I like goodies :P
Greg
|
|
Yeah, after reading through a couple of y'all's posts I have to take back some of the vitriol from my first post. Though I still argue that making one of the PCs heal seperately from the others is not cool -- especially if it involves a Player reconsidering whether or not to play his cool character concept.
The thing that I've seen in the Pathfinder Pally that's so game-influential is that his LoH is a Swift action. The Cleric can focus on some of the other tanks with his Cures during combat cuz the Pally can get a free d6 each round himself.
Fortunately, when my girlfiend decided to play a dhampire 'paladin' in my group, she chose to use her 'faux paladin' build (Cleric 1 at 1st, and at about 20th will be a Fighter 12, Cleric 8). Since she chose to Channel Negative energy, it won't be a problem.
|
|
I was going to make a dhampir pally in a campaign, and go with the scarred hands and pain when doing LoH. However, the DM also wanted the paladin to take damage while healing. That was a bit overkill for me for giving up a healing myself.
So, we talked about a dhampir celestial sorcerer
Condolences. He does know that neutral clerics that channel negative energy don't hurt themselves, right?
Funny thing, I'm playing a celestial sorc alongside our dhampir paladin. Heavenly fire is one of the few "conventional" healing methods that'll work on him since it's keyed exclusively to good vs evil rather than living/undead.
May I point out that if the GM is ruling the Lay On Hands is Positive Energy, then logically Vicious is Negative Energy.
Ergo, if the Paladin is using a +1 Vicious weapon, then he's either ignoring the 1d6 damage to himself, or he's being healed by it (depending on how the GM rules). So that's a bit of a boost for our Dhampir Paladin.
I think this is all sorted out by the fact good alignments will use positive energy, evil alignments will use negative energy. A paladin must be a Lawful Good alignment, thus it is positive energy. If you really want to heal as a Dhampir, perhaps you would need to be an Anti-Paladin, which would be much more suitable for that type of creature.
Further use of negative energy is an evil act, thus the Paladin would loose his/her class powers.
|
|
I think this is all sorted out by the fact good alignments will use positive energy, evil alignments will use negative energy. A paladin must be a Lawful Good alignment, thus it is positive energy. If you really want to heal as a Dhampir, perhaps you would need to be an Anti-Paladin, which would be much more suitable for that type of creature.
Further use of negative energy is an evil act, thus the Paladin would loose his/her class powers.
Except good clerics can prepare inflict, evil clerics can prepare cure, and neutrals can swing one way or the other on channelling and their alignment is never called into question.
Not much of a fact there.
There is nothing evil(or code-breaking) about a dhampir paladin using a wand of inflict on himself to heal.
I think this is all sorted out by the fact good alignments will use positive energy, evil alignments will use negative energy. A paladin must be a Lawful Good alignment, thus it is positive energy. If you really want to heal as a Dhampir, perhaps you would need to be an Anti-Paladin, which would be much more suitable for that type of creature.
Further use of negative energy is an evil act, thus the Paladin would loose his/her class powers.
Except good clerics can prepare inflict, evil clerics can prepare cure, and neutrals can swing one way or the other on channelling and their alignment is never called into question.
Not much of a fact there.
There is nothing evil(or code-breaking) about a dhampir paladin using a wand of inflict on himself to heal.
Nope, not at all. It's completely fine. He'll want UMD of course, since it's not on his spell list (I don't think).
Sounds like a good concept - perhaps the paladin is somehow able to take the pain from the other's wounds unto himself (was it a he or a she?). Maybe the trace of vampiric blood powers in him is responsible for this quirk of the paladin powers - blood calls to blood, and he is able to "leech" the pain away and quicken the healing of another's wounds. It is said that healing spells feel different depending on the deity that provides them - perhaps the same is true for healing provided by the paladin ability.
I wonder if the DM would allow a homebrew feat to empower your lay on hands ability if you take a bit of damage or penalty on rolls to represent the pain you feel.
I'm somewhat of a purist. I would not allow this race/class combination. It just has a wrong feel to me.
|
|
I'm somewhat of a purist. I would not allow this race/class combination. It just has a wrong feel to me.
In Balkan folklore, Dhampir were vampire fighters.
(Wesley Snipes' Blade is similar in concept, although he's like +4 in all stats and has the "thirst", and had a mother who was bitten rather than bedded.)
I'm somewhat of a purist. I would not allow this race/class combination. It just has a wrong feel to me.In Balkan folklore, Dhampir were vampire fighters.
I'm not sure about that, and the article didn't give any reference for that claim. I'm Bulgarian, and while I remember reading a few folk songs about vampires seeking to copulate with the ones they loved in life, I can't say I remember any cases where the child took arms against vampires. I saw another wiki article that claimed something like that, but it also gave no source such as a written legend or song.
Overall, from what I know of Balkan mythology as an aggregate body of legends vampires were more of a corpse possessed by a malevolent ghost than the classical Stoker-ish vampire.I think there might be some confusion with the children of the zmey (dragonic creatures and/or elemental personifications), for which there are mentions of occasionally became something like guardians for their communities and fighting off other mythological creatures. However, mythical creatures were not very strictly defined (or at least, we have few sources that help US understand how defined they were) so there might be some blurring of the lines or variations in local myths.
Overall, I'm not saying that it can't work within the contents of the game - it's perfectly fine imo - just that I'm not aware of this particular archetype existing in the actual legends.