So... there are good rules on how to copy spells from a book.
But I don't want to copy the spells. I killed the wizard. His book is mine.
Do I have to still pay to copy the spells? Why? Why can't I just take "ownership" of his book or some such?
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So... there are good rules on how to copy spells from a book.
But I don't want to copy the spells. I killed the wizard. His book is mine.
Do I have to still pay to copy the spells? Why? Why can't I just take "ownership" of his book or some such?
In D&D 3.5, there was an optional rule for this in Complete Arcana involving a beefed up Spellcraft check...detail not remembered (DC 20 or 25+ highest spell level, maybe). This should do the trick if the source is acceptable. I am not aware of a Paizo product that has an optional rule on it.
In D&D 3.5, there was an optional rule for this in Complete Arcana involving a beefed up Spellcraft check...detail not remembered (DC 20 or 25+ highest spell level, maybe). This should do the trick if the source is acceptable. I am not aware of a Paizo product that has an optional rule on it.
So, officially, I have to copy the spells into my book?
I guess I can sell the other, useless book afterwards, then.
Blughh.
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Once you have used spellcraft to learn a new spell from the spell book you can then use spellcraft to prepare a spell from a "borrowed" spell book. In both cases the DC is 15+spell level. At some point that roll becomes rather trivial.
I had a player do this once and he would roll to try to prepare some spells from a captured spell book. I made him roll for each spell and each day (as required). On days when he failed rolls he would just memorize another spell from his book, was kinda entertaining.
In the end he transferred the most useful spells to his book to avoid rolling all the time.
If you can learn all the spells with take 10 it doesn't really matter.
As a level 4 wizard with maxed int and spellcraft you will have +11, enough to prepare level 6 spells from a borrowed book, so this seems mostly a non-issue.
Yea my player tried to pull that but I made him roll.
lol, not saying I disagree, but it is a core rule, no reason he isn't allowed to unless the GM says he can not.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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It doesn't work anyway.
From page 219 of the core rulebook:
"A wizard can use a borrowed spell to prepare a spell he already knows and has recorded in his own spellbook.
If you haven't copied the spell into your own book at some point in the past, you're not able to prepare it yet.
If you want to use his spellbook for fluff rather than to save cash, you could probably just refluff the gold spent copying to gold spent on for example reference materials to understand that wizards individual style of magic.
It doesn't work anyway.
From page 219 of the core rulebook:
"A wizard can use a borrowed spell to prepare a spell he already knows [bold]and has recorded in his own spellbook[/bold].If you haven't copied the spell into your own book at some point in the past, you're not able to prepare it yet.
hehe just like your [bolds] =p, otherwise good point ;)
If a wizard becomes seperated from his spellbook somehow, do the new spells he gets from going up a level magically appear in the book? Then can he choose a spell from the dead wizard's book to be the new spell he knows? What happens if a fighter destroys the spellbook of a still living evil wizard? There are some problems with that rule.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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If a wizard becomes seperated from his spellbook somehow, do the new spells he gets from going up a level magically appear in the book? Then can he choose a spell from the dead wizard's book to be the new spell he knows? What happens if a fighter destroys the spellbook of a still living evil wizard? There are some problems with that rule.
You'd need to get a new book to get your free spells for gaining a level. I imagine many GMs would just let you use paper you'd scrounged for that.
As for "what if your spellbook is destroyed", that's part of why you can prepare spells from someone else's book if you already knew the spell and had previously recorded it. The other part would be in the event you just don't have the book handy. The spell didn't stop being recorded in your book just because the book got destroyed.
I'm going to second the vote for integrating another wizard's spellbook into your own using the rules from Complete Arcane; that's one of very few 3.5 rules I crossed over.
After all, iirc the cost of copying a spell into your spellbook is equal to that of then selling the duplicate spell you no longer need, so allowing integration just avoids financial tedium and bookkeeping.
I'm sorry,
But you're all looking at it the wrong way.
The new spellbook is not a waste. It's a never ending source of coins!
A) When in town for a bit, put it out that you are going to be in town, and that you are willing to let other practitioners rent out 'your' spellbook (actually the captured spellbook). Make money on both wizards, magi, and alchemists.
B) When you want to get spells from another wizard, you have a book you can offer other than your own for trading spells. You should have them all in your book, but this lets you offer the same thing without divulging to potential future competitors exactly what you have in your book.
LOL!
I just wanted to go on record as saying that Frozen Forever's avatar perfectly matches the all-caps declaration in the subject line of the thread.
If I'm your GM, you've got it.
But... Any decent wizard will more or less auto-pass that Spellcraft check, right?
I dunno, this whole rule seems like needless paperwork that adds not one whit of balance to the game.
Used to be you had a main spell book and a traveling spellbook. I'm ok with there being 1 designated spellbook, transferable. If you do this to the spell book of your teacher, who you think is dead, he can transfer to his spare book, preventing you from realizing that they are not dead.
This thread inspired me to make [url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/whatsThePointOfTheBorrowedSpellbookRule]a spin off thread[/url. I invite you all to join in the discussion there as well.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Used to be you had a main spell book and a traveling spellbook. I'm ok with there being 1 designated spellbook, transferable. If you do this to the spell book of your teacher, who you think is dead, he can transfer to his spare book, preventing you from realizing that they are not dead.
Unless you get a blessed book, you'll wind up with more than one book well before you run out of levels to gain. So if you have extra spellbooks, they are all "your" spellbook, no need to designate one.
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I'm sorry,
But you're all looking at it the wrong way.The new spellbook is not a waste. It's a never ending source of coins!
A) When in town for a bit, put it out that you are going to be in town, and that you are willing to let other practitioners rent out 'your' spellbook (actually the captured spellbook). Make money on both wizards, magi, and alchemists.
B) When you want to get spells from another wizard, you have a book you can offer other than your own for trading spells. You should have them all in your book, but this lets you offer the same thing without divulging to potential future competitors exactly what you have in your book.
until you find that for
A) a spellcaster uses the pages of your captured spellbook as scrolls instead of a resource... now you have a side quest to find that NPC and take that pay out of their hideB)find that the person you are copying from actually mislabels their spells on purpose in case his spellbook is stolen (or the looted spellbook does the same thing). now one person or the other has a spell different than they thought and will be mad. will the other person track the PCs or will the PCs track the wizard? (I would give the PC spellcraft or knowl:arcane checks to identify the bad spells)
until you find that for
A) a spellcaster uses the pages of your captured spellbook as scrolls instead of a resource... now you have a side quest to find that NPC and take that pay out of their hideB)find that the person you are copying from actually mislabels their spells on purpose in case his spellbook is stolen (or the looted spellbook does the same thing). now one person or the other has a spell different than they thought and will be mad. will the other person track the PCs or will the PCs track the wizard? (I would give the PC spellcraft or knowl:arcane checks to identify the bad spells)
A1) Your GM is being a #$*$#*, get a new GM.
A2) I never said you would let them walk off with it, duh.A3) There's rules in the book for what it costs, you pay them to others, they pay them to you.
B1) You have to copy them out of the captured book first before you can use them. So you will know if they are mislabled.
B2) You have to make a spellcraft roll to copy it, so you'll know if it's the wrong spell before you get into copying it.
B3) Your GM is being a $#@(*$&, get a new GM.
A) a spellcaster uses the pages of your captured spellbook as scrolls instead of a resource... now you have a side quest to find that NPC and take that pay out of their hideB)find that the person you are copying from actually mislabels their spells on purpose in case his spellbook is stolen (or the looted spellbook does the same thing). now one person or the other has a spell different than they thought and will be mad. will the other person track the PCs or will the PCs track the wizard? (I would give the PC spellcraft or knowl:arcane checks to identify the bad spells)
A) This is no longer possible. With the VASTLY reduced cost of scribing spells into the book, it would make Scribe Scroll FREE for all wizards (instead of ever having to be a feat at all for them, and instead of being a replaceable class feature), and the cost would be astronomically reduced. Scribing a Mirror Image scroll at CL3 (minimum) = 150gp, scribing a second level spell in the book is 40gp in pathfinder. You never set a 'caster level' for spells put into your spellbook, they are not scrolls. You cannot prepare a spell from a scroll.
B) A simple Spellcraft DC15+Spell Level reveals the actual spell effects. You cannot prepare the spell without knowing its effects, no matter what. Intent is a significant portion of the spellcasting. Saying "Shirak" does not make it dark in the room. Having Darkness prepared, intending for the darkness to expand from the point you focus on, focusing on a point, and then saying "Shirak" does. You cannot accidentally cast spells or trigger magic items.
I just thought of something. Once you've ganked the wizard, now it's your spellbook. So if you're not borrowing it, you actually grabbed it, I don't see any difference here than purchasing another 5 gp spellbook; unless people want to argue that only the spellbook that you begin play with is your spellbook.
Anyone got anything that dismisses this thought?
I just thought of something. Once you've ganked the wizard, now it's your spellbook. So if you're not borrowing it, you actually grabbed it, I don't see any difference here than purchasing another 5 gp spellbook; unless people want to argue that only the spellbook that you begin play with is your spellbook.
Anyone got anything that dismisses this thought?
As said before, it's like deciphering someone's notes after a lecture in advanced physics. It takes a while to decipher, and you're probably better off copying the notes and selling the other book. xD
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Yea my player tried to pull that but I made him roll.And I hope that he told you he got a 10.
Take-10 is part of the skills system. You might not like it, wanting people to fail at tying their shoes every so often.. but it's there.
-James
No he told me what he rolled because my games are usually player focused so when I am a jerk about little things like this they let it slide.
So... there are good rules on how to copy spells from a book.But I don't want to copy the spells. I killed the wizard. His book is mine.Do I have to still pay to copy the spells? Why? Why can't I just take "ownership" of his book or some such?
Don't take this the wrong way, but: in my view, that's just another point where the abstract nature of the rules asserts itself. The wizard's spell book is a factor in balancing the class with all others. Acquiring new resources for your class is always associated with a cost. Therefore, it would be highly irregular if you could 'just' take ownership while avoiding the cost the rules normally stipulate.
That doesn't keep you from implementing any rules for doing so anyway, but it's something to keep in mind when designing them, IMO.
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I just thought of something. Once you've ganked the wizard, now it's your spellbook. So if you're not borrowing it, you actually grabbed it, I don't see any difference here than purchasing another 5 gp spellbook; unless people want to argue that only the spellbook that you begin play with is your spellbook.
Anyone got anything that dismisses this thought?
No, in fact, that's exactly the way I'd rule. This isn't a game-balance thing, it's a needless paperwork thing. I don't go for those, as a rule.
Think Raistlin and "the books of Fistandantalist"... (If you don't know.. go read it.. amazing story)Etc etc etc etc
Well, there's something I might have read that I can never unlearn.
Massive F+%&ing Spoiler
Any chance you could edit that out of your post? At least use spoiler tags or something.
Used to be you had a main spell book and a traveling spellbook. I'm ok with there being 1 designated spellbook, transferable. If you do this to the spell book of your teacher, who you think is dead, he can transfer to his spare book, preventing you from realizing that they are not dead.Unless you get a blessed book, you'll wind up with more than one book well before you run out of levels to gain. So if you have extra spellbooks, they are all "your" spellbook, no need to designate one.
I mean for the purposes of those RAW that mention one spellbook, not spellbooks.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I just thought of something. Once you've ganked the wizard, now it's your spellbook. So if you're not borrowing it, you actually grabbed it, I don't see any difference here than purchasing another 5 gp spellbook; unless people want to argue that only the spellbook that you begin play with is your spellbook.
Anyone got anything that dismisses this thought?
Yep. The opening text under spellbooks that talks about unique style.
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This thread inspired me to make a spin off thread. I invite you all to join in the discussion there as well.
FIFY
I just thought of something. Once you've ganked the wizard, now it's your spellbook. So if you're not borrowing it, you actually grabbed it, I don't see any difference here than purchasing another 5 gp spellbook; unless people want to argue that only the spellbook that you begin play with is your spellbook.
Anyone got anything that dismisses this thought?
Further evidence that the rule is borked as written.
Once you've ganked the wizard, now it's your spellbook.It isn't your spell book until it is your handwriting in the book.
Crossposted from Dork's thread.
Example of how a spell book works the way it does using real world examples.
I am a cryptographer.
I write my diary in a cypher that I make up. It's my cypher, there are many in the world like it, but this one is mine.
My diary is stolen.
The thief can't read my cypher. He sells it to a cryptographer. The cryptographer sets about breaking my cypher. When he does, he finds valuable information on cryptography in it.
He copies my notes on cryptography to his own diary, using his own cypher, which is different from mine. There are many in the world like it, but that one is his.
EDIT : Just to note, the whole concept of encrypted spells in spellbooks fits just fine with stories on wizards. You don't want the uppity apprentice being able to decipher the more powerful spells before you're ready for him to be able to. Nor your enemies. I would say there is an argument that each spell book or even spell could be 'encrypted' in a slightly different way by the same wizard, for extra security.
Every wizard has their own personal shorthand, but I don't even think you have to go to it being in code.
Everyone borrowed someone's notes in school, and everyone's tried to read someone else's crappy handwriting and had no clue what they wrote. You've read it over and over, and finally figured out what it says. The Spellcraft check is like that.
Now - if the notes were really important, where you had to get each and every word exactly right, would you want to be stuck having to study from their crappy handwriting you can't read easily, or your own crappy handwriting which you can read?
Except..
If I break your cipher /then your book is mine/. I can now read it and learn everything you ever wrote in it.
I don't have to relearn your cipher every time I close your book and open it again. Why? Because I already did that.
Its my book now written in a cipher that I understand and can read. I can also write in it if I choose to.
"Doh, I forgot your cipher from yesterday" repeated everyday for the rest of your life.. is absolutely stupid. If the DC is low enough to take 10 and auto pass then the book should just be your book now and you go on with life.
The fighter doesn't have to make a check to learn that +3 sword thats better than his +2 sword. He just picks it up and keeps moving.
-S
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I just thought of something. Once you've ganked the wizard, now it's your spellbook. So if you're not borrowing it, you actually grabbed it, I don't see any difference here than purchasing another 5 gp spellbook; unless people want to argue that only the spellbook that you begin play with is your spellbook.
Anyone got anything that dismisses this thought?
Yes. Your spellbook isn't a reference to mere possession, whether through purchase, theft, robbery, etc. Your spellbook is a spellbook that you have written yourself.
If you have any artwork on the walls of your home. It's your art. You own it. If you are the artist, it is also your art. If you are the artist and sell it or give it away, it's still your art. English isn't necessarily precise at all time.
Except..
If I break your cipher /then your book is mine/. I can now read it and learn everything you ever wrote in it.
I don't have to relearn your cipher every time I close your book and open it again. Why? Because I already did that.
Its my book now written in a cipher that I understand and can read. I can also write in it if I choose to.
"Doh, I forgot your cipher from yesterday" repeated everyday for the rest of your life.. is absolutely stupid. If the DC is low enough to take 10 and auto pass then the book should just be your book now and you go on with life.
The fighter doesn't have to make a check to learn that +3 sword thats better than his +2 sword. He just picks it up and keeps moving.
-S
This is especially true (in its stupidity) in the context of 20+ intelligence wizards.
This is especially true (in its stupidity) in the context of 20+ intelligence wizards.Except..
If I break your cipher /then your book is mine/. I can now read it and learn everything you ever wrote in it.
I don't have to relearn your cipher every time I close your book and open it again. Why? Because I already did that.
Its my book now written in a cipher that I understand and can read. I can also write in it if I choose to.
"Doh, I forgot your cipher from yesterday" repeated everyday for the rest of your life.. is absolutely stupid. If the DC is low enough to take 10 and auto pass then the book should just be your book now and you go on with life.
The fighter doesn't have to make a check to learn that +3 sword thats better than his +2 sword. He just picks it up and keeps moving.
-S
Please note the edit about using a different cypher for each spell everyone? Why else do I bother putting in edits if nobody reads them.
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Except..
If I break your cipher /then your book is mine/. I can now read it and learn everything you ever wrote in it.
I don't have to relearn your cipher every time I close your book and open it again. Why? Because I already did that.
I think it's more like translating something from hieroglyphs if you have reference books, and some basic knowledge, but don't read them fluently. You can painstakingly work out what they say, and may remember some of that content, and definitly remember the gist of each page (so you recall which spells are in the book), but not necessarily the details of that content, without going back to your notes to check exact meanings and such. Your best bet is to copy out your translations into a language you do understand, and can read fluently.
That said, you can learn a whole new language for 1 rank of linguistics, so you could just charge the Wizard that same 1 rank in linguistics to fluently learn another Wizard's 'personal short hand', which would allow him to then read all that other Wizard's notes and treat his spellbooks as his own.
"Doh, I forgot your cipher from yesterday" repeated everyday for the rest of your life.. is absolutely stupid. If the DC is low enough to take 10 and auto pass then the book should just be your book now and you go on with life.
It's just as stupid (or not stupid) as "I forgot how to cast that spell". Remember, wizards don't just use up spell slots when they cast a spell - otherwise they'd be able to cast them again the next day without their book. They actually forget how to cast it. Forgetting how to read someone else's magical writing seems like it'd be right along the same lines.