Steel_Wind |
*From the Grass isn't Greener on the Other Side of the Fence Department*
Azmyth mentioned that the story which emerged over this past weekend's local con in the Bay Area, was that LFR and the RPGA appear to have been effectively killed off by WotC a few weeks ago.
Some LFR organizers on ENWorld this evening confirmed it. LFR is dead and the RPGA is too; or at the very least, the RPGA is *mostly dead* and in indefinite limbo. No RPGA #s were requested over the past weekend's convention in Colorado, either. LFR is now strictly community-run now. No corporate sponsored module writing at all.
Which pretty much will kill LFR as dead-as-a-doornail. LFR is just swirling the bowl now.
Currently in 4E land, there is D&D Encounters with some other organized play with a vague object (no name for it) rumored to be coming in the fall on some uncertain date. But right now?
Pathfinder Society is the only organized play of its kind with offical corporate support.
Didn't TSR go down this road before too near the end? And didn't WotC reverse that after they took over with Lisa Stevens becoming involved in its initial rennaissance? Or am I misremembering how that all went down?
Whatever the case, it sure is looking better and better on this side of the RPG Fence.
Every. Single. Day.
Thoth-Amon the Mindflayerian |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've said it before and I will say it again: Paizo needs to run it all. Seems, they are the only ones with their fingers on the proverbial pulse of gamers.
If I were to win a *huge* lottery, I would do two things with the winnings:
1) Get the television series of Firefly going again. We need more episodes.
2) Buy out WotC and give it/put it under Paizo's control. They know what the gamers want.
Mighty Thoth has left his mental signature
Skeld |
Pathfinder Society is the only organized play of its kind with offical corporate support.
I believe Shadowrun Missions is also officially sponsored by CGL.
Granted, it's not any form of D&D...
-Skeld
I.Malachi |
I've said it before and I will say it again: Paizo needs to run it all. Seems, they are the only ones with their fingers on the proverbial pulse of gamers.
If I were to win a *huge* lottery, I would do two things with the winnings:
1) Get the television series of Firefly going again. We need more episodes.
2) Buy out WotC and give it/put it under Paizo's control. They know what the gamers want.Mighty Thoth has left his mental signature
You and I are of like mind. Ah, what a wonderful dream.
I'm continually impressed by Paizo's writing and their willingness to listen to the players. I especially like the fact they Mark and Hyrum are here all the time taking suggestions into consideration and just generally making themselves available to help.
Dragnmoon |
Steel_Wind wrote:Pathfinder Society is the only organized play of its kind with offical corporate support.I believe Shadowrun Missions is also officially sponsored by CGL.
Granted, it's not any form of D&D...
-Skeld
I was about the post the same. Catalyst Game Labs still supports this with release adventures for Org play,
Steel_Wind |
It's sad to see it go down hill like that. I know pretty much all of my current friends due to Living Greyhawk and the RPGA community here in Minnesota.
Well, I guess it depends on what you see as the purpose of organized play.
I think there are a few immediate goals for a game like D&D/Pathfinder:
1. A venue to learn how to play;
Not to be understated. If you pick this game up and don't have any friends who are interested, that's a BIG barrier. Organized Play helps you slay that dragon.
2. A venue for networking;
In-store play introduces you to other gamers with whom you can meet and ultimately "join" their gaming group as part of a normal home campaign.
This purpose, "networking" is what I would argue is the REAL purpose of all organized play. Networking somebody into a gaming group is the hardest part of player acquisition in the hobby.
Once you get them in and keep them for more than a year? You've got them for quite a while. In many cases, decades and decades.
The events that make them STOP being a gamer after that usually relate to losing that networked group, namely, people in the group move away. That's the big killer and how most gamers become "lapsed gamers."
But getting them into a group? That's the hardest part and the real immediate marketing goal of organized play.
3. Hardcore Customer Growth & Support
Points one and two are the main purposes from most marketing perspectives. But Erik Mona and others who were involved in Living Greyhawk formed another view: customer loyalty.
Erik has written elsewhere that he believes that people who were participants in the RPGA games he was a part of were extremely loyal customers. They bought everything for the game there was. They were used to playing with new people and they proselytized, too. As part of a larger organized play network, they were very "move resistant" to "losing" their gaming group, too, in the case that someone moved away.
Fanatically loyal, evergreen customers. What's not to like about that?
Well, a few things. Those fans can be both a blessing and a curse to have -- as they are the kinds of fans who b@$$! about the smallest of things, are resisitant to even minor changes, and can rant endlessly about minutiae. But, on balance, they are also the fans you need to seel a guaranteed minimum number of books over the long haul, too. High maintenance? Sure. But they are high profit and "fad resistant" fans in the long-term. Overall, you want these fans. In Erik's view, you want them a lot, actually.
From the looks of things, WotC has determined that only points 1 and 2 are wothwhile pursuing. They don't care about #3.
Paizo? Paizo cares about #3 as a long-term marketing reason and believes that's a good reason to keep supporting Pathfinder Society, too.
Me? I'm unconvinced. But seeing as Erik Mona and Lisa Stevens see that #3 is a legitimate object, I have little evidence upon which to say they are wrong -- and tons of anecdotal evidence to suggest why they are probably right.
From all the above events concerning LFR and the RPGA, I guess WotC doesn't see it that way.
Demoyn |
From all the above events concerning LFR and the RPGA, I guess WotC doesn't see it that way.
The problem is that most of us saw this coming from the day they announced 4e, yet they continued to tell us that we were wrong and they were the greatest thing to gaming since dice. You can't run a business like that.
Now they're just getting desperate. If there's any doubt about that just look at Paizo's frontpage. Treasure cards? Yeah... the last grasping straw before bankruptcy.
Charles Evans 25 |
It seems to me that comparisons between Wizards of the Coast and TSR in the context of an expected company demise may be somewhat premature. Whatever similarities/differences there may be in terms of what Wizards of the Coast are purportedly doing on the RPG front, the overall company situations seem to me (from an outsider's perspective) to be very much different. Wizards of the Coast is owned by Hasbro who can afford to abandon a line for months or even years, only executing whatever legal minimums are necessary to protect their Intellectual Property rights. Wizards of the Coast produces one of the biggest Collectible Card Games when it comes to money-spinning currently on the market.
I also gather that the Castle Ravenloft boardgame has been deemed moderately successful, and that more such games may already be in the works or indeed on shop shelves.
Rumours of the imminent demise of Wizards of the Coast seem to me to be little more than rumours...
Is 4E on the way out at a global level? I have no idea. I am aware of a little of what goes on here in the UK on the convention scene (and I occasionally catch up with gossip regarding play/sales figures at games stores) but I'm also aware that culturally speaking the UK is at times off in a world of it's own - certainly with regard to events/trends ongoing in the USA. We're a nation where cricket is still a major sport, after all... :D
DigitalMage |
Pathfinder Society is the only organized play of its kind with offical corporate support.
Nope, as has been said there is Shadowrun Missions, but in addition there is Living Traveller and Living Glorantha both supported by Mongoose and the scenarios are free!
Also, if LFR dies when it is in the community's hands, well there may not have been that much interest in it - I can imagine the scale of it may reduce though. In the UK some people are running their own living Spycraft game called For Queen and Country using the 1st edition of the rules. Also LIHR is still about running under 3.5.
HalfOrcHeavyMetal |
Much as it warms my black, shallow little heart to hear of Hasbro flumphing a product line, again, be aware these guys have a lot of smart, albeit at times blind, people running the show. 4E may be bleeding out on the floor but I've little doubt five or so years down the track we'll see 5E explode onto the scene once the executives in charge get shuffled off, retire or are carried away by angry torch-and-pitchfork wielding mobs of gamers to a horrific fate unknown* and the D&D 'experience' becomes less 'suck you dry at every turn' and perhaps follows in Pathfinder's shoes in 'built by gamers, with gamers, for gamers'.
*Probably being made to play their own game, including all the fees out of their own pockets, but that's just me.
Seriously, don't understand why D&D cancelled the Dragon and Dungeons magazines when those modules outsold their own. Smart people would have either A) Bought the company making those modules and set them to work training their own staff B) Gone with the old saying "Imitation is the most sincere form of Flattery" and tried to follow the Golemn's lead or C)Taken a look at the dead weight in their own department and tried a bit of cubicle pruning.
Mat Black |
the "news" of LFR decoupling from WotC's corporate support is really nothing new. in my opinion, being community-run and "non-canonical" will probably be better for the campaign in the long run.
likewise, the RPGA name has been slowly disappearing for years, being rolled into DCI and now in the WPN. sad to see a name that has been around as long as i've been playing the game go away, but that's the way things go.
given the choice between the LFR, Encounters, Lair Assault, and PFS models, PFS works the best for me. however, i think that labeling LFR or other WotC org play as "dead" is spurious at best.
fantasyphil |
I enjoyed being part of the RPGA here in the UK and playing in the various D&D competitions at Gamesfair and GenconUK but was never really interested in any of the Living campaigns. Pathfinder Society seems the best of all possible worlds and has certainly got me more involved in playing and running games at conventions. I like the way adventures are organised and the different play options. I've also been tempted into trying Lihr (the ongoing Living Scarred Lands campaign)and had enjoyed my one session of Dragonmouth (a Living Iron Heroes game). The fact that these and similar living games are fan-run makes them all the more impressive. Pathfinder Society being so well supported by Paizo just makes things easier but it is the efforts of the many GMs running home-based and convention games that has given rise to the large amount of interest for Pathfinder Society organised play. When it comes to LFR in the UK it will be the hard work of its referees which keeps it going rather than the degree of support from WotC.
MillerHero RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4 |
What is a venture captain?
A Venture-Captain [real world] is a regional coordinator.
A Venture-Captain [fictional world] is regional authority who assigns missions and receives reports.MillerHero RPG Superstar 2012 Top 4 |
Mark Garringer |
wraithstrike wrote:What is a venture captain?A Venture-Captain [real world] is a regional coordinator.
A Venture-Captain [fictional world] is regional authority who assigns missions and receives reports.
I'm still having a lot of trouble remembering to use http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/ instead. =)
The Grandfather |
Seriously, don't understand why D&D cancelled the Dragon and Dungeons magazines when those modules outsold their own. Smart people would have either A) Bought the company making those modules and set them to work training their own staff B) Gone with the old saying "Imitation is the most sincere form of Flattery" and tried to follow the Golemn's lead or C)Taken a look at the dead weight in their own department and tried a bit of cubicle pruning.
Amen!
Freehold DM |
I've said it before and I will say it again: Paizo needs to run it all. Seems, they are the only ones with their fingers on the proverbial pulse of gamers.
If I were to win a *huge* lottery, I would do two things with the winnings:
1) Get the television series of Firefly going again. We need more episodes.
2) Buy out WotC and give it/put it under Paizo's control. They know what the gamers want.Mighty Thoth has left his mental signature
alters reality to ensure Thoth-Amon never wins the lottery
Freehold DM |
Thoth-Amon the Mindflayerian wrote:I've said it before and I will say it again: Paizo needs to run it all. Seems, they are the only ones with their fingers on the proverbial pulse of gamers.
If I were to win a *huge* lottery, I would do two things with the winnings:
[/b]1) Get the television series of Firefly going again. We need more episodes.[/b]
2) Buy out WotC and give it/put it under Paizo's control. They know what the gamers want.Mighty Thoth has left his mental signature
You and I are of like mind. Ah, what a wonderful dream.
I'm continually impressed by Paizo's writing and their willingness to listen to the players. I especially like the fact they Mark and Hyrum are here all the time taking suggestions into consideration and just generally making themselves available to help.
adds I.Malachi to list of non-lottery winners
Justin Franklin |
Thoth-Amon the Mindflayerian wrote:alters reality to ensure Thoth-Amon never wins the lotteryI've said it before and I will say it again: Paizo needs to run it all. Seems, they are the only ones with their fingers on the proverbial pulse of gamers.
If I were to win a *huge* lottery, I would do two things with the winnings:
1) Get the television series of Firefly going again. We need more episodes.
2) Buy out WotC and give it/put it under Paizo's control. They know what the gamers want.Mighty Thoth has left his mental signature
Go drink your Haterade in the corner. ;P
And remember everyone to become a fan of Freehold DM on Facebook!!
Shivok |
WOTC is not really doing that bad as a company. CCG games are still very popular and have strong sales. However its cornerstone Brand-D&D, is not selling well. Chuck it up to many many marketing missteps, a waning(fleeing) player base, and a lack of company/player interaction.
It may be that D&D will come back in some form as 5e in a few years. Emulating it one-time periodicals company.
If not then I give it about 5 years before the D&D brand is in Paizo's portfolio as an IP and not as a product licensee(they got bit once already).
Either way I believe its a win win for paizo. If gamers leave D&D for organized play they will come to Paizo and if Paizo gets D&D ...well we'll leave that for another day...
hhouse93 |
Fascinating update, everyone. I am curious to see the effect of all this on LFR games at Orgins and Gen Con this year.
I am really impressed how Paizo takes care of its customers and gives us gamers what we want to see and play. I wish that the owners of the Dungeons and Dragons IP could have learned that lesson.
bugleyman |
Shivok wrote:Astute observation
If not then I give it about 5 years before the D&D brand is in Paizo's portfolio as an IP and not as a product licensee(they got bit once already).
You really think so, eh?
I can't see it. WotC would be looking to sell a brand, while Paizo would be looking to buy an RPG. I have a really difficult time imaging they could settle on a price. Add Hasbro's well-established penchant for brand hoarding and I think this outcome is very unlikely indeed. Then again, I've been wrong before. :)
Dragnmoon |
Fascinating update, everyone. I am curious to see the effect of all this on LFR games at Orgins and Gen Con this year.
This right here. Will WotC allocate the necessary funds it takes to run the game in the Huge room they currently have at GenCon?
baron arem heshvaun |
Its good to remember our shared gaming roots, to pay respect to those that have paved the way for what PFS is today.
Josh learend from the mistakes and successes that were inherent within the RPGA. Hyrum and Mark are now the stewards of that ship.
I will fondly remember my memories of the RPGA.
The RPGA is {mostly} dead. Long live PFS !
Huzzah!
James Risner Owner - D20 Hobbies |
Fascinating update, everyone. I am curious to see the effect of all this on LFR games at Orgins and Gen Con this year.
Last year there were 120 Pathfinder games and 68 LFR about 2 months before GenCon. I mentioned this a month later and got yelled at by LFR's, who then "proved me wrong" when the current number was around 200 LFR games and 170 Pathfinder games.
I suspect this year there will be around 300 Pathfinder games come GenCon and under 50 LFR. If I'm right, find me at GenCon and buy me a drink. If I'm wrong, find me and I'll buy you a drink. ;-)
John Kretzer |
My two cents...this a better move by both parties invilved.
1) The RPGA probably as it is now turns most people away from D&D 4th ed than it attracts.
2) Now that the RPGA is free from WotC than can actualy be useful. Personaly I think the whole organized play in RPG is rather silly. Hopefuly it turns into a network of DMs sharing modules and a way to meet other gamers. And who know maybe support other games like it used too...mmmm imagine RPGA running Pathfindfer events?
3) LFR was a joke...as was LGH. Personaly I have always felt the RPZGA would have been better served by it very own campaign setting.
I don't care what WotC does anymore...but it would be interesting that the RPGa members look at this as a opportunity to grow as a organizxation. This to me should not be the death of the RPGA but it should be a chance for them to actualy grow up.
Chris Mortika RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16 |
My two cents...this a good move by both parties involved.
1) The RPGA probably as it is now turns most people away from D&D 4th ed than it attracts.
I admit, I haven't had much contact with RPGA since the early-to-mid days of Living City / Living Jungle. (The exception being, peripheral contact through Living Arcanis.) So I'm terribly out-of-date. What aspects of RPGA's current bill don't fit your preferences?
Personaly I have always felt the RPGA would have been better served by it very own campaign setting.
In effect, that's what was happening under Living Greyhawk, since there were no other WotC products for that setting.
--+--
As some people have observed, decoupling RPGA from Wizards has a few potential positives: it allows a lower-level team of fans to address the desires of the current RPGA membership quickly and without the overhead of the Wizards corporate structure.
The Outlaw Josie Whales |
The Outlaw Josie Whales wrote:Shivok wrote:Astute observation
If not then I give it about 5 years before the D&D brand is in Paizo's portfolio as an IP and not as a product licensee(they got bit once already).
You really think so, eh?
I can't see it. WotC would be looking to sell a brand, while Paizo would be looking to buy an RPG. I have a really difficult time imaging they could settle on a price. Add Hasbro's well-established penchant for brand hoarding and I think this outcome is very unlikely indeed. Then again, I've been wrong before. :)
Yes I think so. IMO, Paizo would only be interested in the Brand. When companies decide to end of line of business (which would not surprise me) they tend to go for a pretty good price. Truth is there just is not a huge market for the D&D brand UNLESS (and this is a big unless) one of the video game companies decided they wanted it. If that doesn't happen I imagine Paizo would be one of the few in a position to grab it and actually make use of the various IP.
Note: I completely understand this is unfounded speculation
John Kretzer |
John Kretzer wrote:I admit, I haven't had much contact with RPGA since the early-to-mid days of Living City / Living Jungle. (The exception being, peripheral contact through Living Arcanis.) So I'm terribly out-of-date. What aspects of RPGA's current bill don't fit your preferences?My two cents...this a good move by both parties involved.
1) The RPGA probably as it is now turns most people away from D&D 4th ed than it attracts.
I was not talking about my preference...I dislike organized play even waaayyy back in the day. Give me a home game anytime of the week.
But as far as I saw was happening and what killed the RPGA in my area is that nobody was running low level games as most of the regular players did not want to play low levels anymore. So there stopped being games for new players...and eventualy due to GM burnout the higher level game aren't run anymore either.
Also in my area alot of newbies got turned off by the local crowd telling them how to optimize their characters and how to play thier characters. Also over at the WotC boards there are a ton of nightmare stories about people dealing with RPGA events as newbies.
My local gaming store ran it twice a week and usualy had 5 tables a night...now they are lucky to get 1 table a week. It could be the RPGA is just dieing a nature death as people are moving away from organize play. (Heck really the RPGA never really represented a majority of players anyway).
Cory Stafford 29 |
I can't say I would be surprised at LFR's demise. The modules had next to no role-playing and most were not connected in any way. IMHO, the encounters were really poorly written. Most were challenging, but it took way too long to grind through the ridiculous amount of hp's the monster's had. A lot of this had to do with the 4E's mechanics and general design philosophy, but LFR was really bad about using monters of too high of a level with roles that already gave them obscenely high defenses. It often took 6 hours to play through an LFR session, and they were supposed to be completed in 4 hours. Nothing kills your enthusiasm for a game like pointlessly grinding through hit points for hours on end. You can run two Pathfinder scenarios in the time it takes to run one LFR module. That's just sad. Pathfinder definitely gives you more quality gaming for time spent than 4E.
bugleyman |
Truth is there just is not a huge market for the D&D brand UNLESS (and this is a big unless) one of the video game companies decided they wanted it.
You know that. I know that. But I'm not convinced Hasbro does.
Out of curiosity, assuming it does happen: Do you see Paizo abandoning Pathfinder as a brand, or just using individual pieces of IP (mind flayers, beholders, etc.)?
Black Fang |
In the highly unlikely event Hasbro would actually sell off the Dungeons and Dragons brand, I would like to see Paizo buy it.
However, I wouldn't like to see Paizo rebrand Pathfinder as Dungeons and Dragons. Paizo has their own thing going, and it rocks, IMO. I would like to see Paizo able to use some of the classic creatures that are currently IP of Hasbro. I would also like to see Paizo reach out to the original creators of the creatures that are currently treated by Hasbro as IP, but are technically supposed to belong to the person(s) who created them.
Again, I greatly doubt Hasbro will ever sell off D&D. Odds are it'll get shelved for a few years until Hasbro makes a new video game/cartoon/movie/etc.
Just my two coppers.
TwoWolves |
hhouse93 wrote:Fascinating update, everyone. I am curious to see the effect of all this on LFR games at Orgins and Gen Con this year.Last year there were 120 Pathfinder games and 68 LFR about 2 months before GenCon. I mentioned this a month later and got yelled at by LFR's, who then "proved me wrong" when the current number was around 200 LFR games and 170 Pathfinder games.
I suspect this year there will be around 300 Pathfinder games come GenCon and under 50 LFR. If I'm right, find me at GenCon and buy me a drink. If I'm wrong, find me and I'll buy you a drink. ;-)
Shall I see you at The Ram in any case?
Cheers mate!
Matthew Koelbl |
I'm a little confused here.
From what I understood, yes, LFR became a community-run program... about 8 or 9 months ago. And has continued to exist and run since then, without being 'killed off' in any fashion. This letting WotC focus on Encounters, the upcoming D&D challenge program, and the like.
I mean, I can certainly sympathize with those who felt LFR deserved more support, but the original post here (and most of those chiming in) seem to be indicating that WotC has gone a step further to kill off LFR and the RPGA, and I haven't heard anything along those lines.
Exactly what is being referred to, here?
Charlie Bell RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 |
Occam |
Currently in 4E land, there is D&D Encounters with some other organized play with a vague object (no name for it) rumored to be coming in the fall on some uncertain date. But right now?
Pathfinder Society is the only organized play of its kind with offical corporate support.
How is it that you directly contradicted yourself from one paragraph to the next? Doesn't that hurt?
Occam |
The Outlaw Josie Whales |
The Outlaw Josie Whales wrote:Truth is there just is not a huge market for the D&D brand UNLESS (and this is a big unless) one of the video game companies decided they wanted it.You know that. I know that. But I'm not convinced Hasbro does.
Out of curiosity, assuming it does happen: Do you see Paizo abandoning Pathfinder as a brand, or just using individual pieces of IP (mind flayers, beholders, etc.)?
I don't think they (and I wouldn't) abandon the Pathfinder brand but rather find a way to have the two brands operate and thrive together. A lot of companies are able to do this so it's not out of the question.
Many of the settings could immediately be used for both rpg's for example. Plus it seemed like Paizo had a better handle on the pdf market and could possible derive more use from out of print material. I would also guess that many of the old adventures could also be re-energized under the Paizo creative direction. Things like that just lots of revenue generating possibilities that would add up.
The big reason though would be able to share common costs (overhead, fixed cost, website) across both audiences (D&D & Pathfinder).
Justin Franklin |
Demoyn wrote:You can't run a business like that.
Now they're just getting desperate. If there's any doubt about that just look at Paizo's frontpage. Treasure cards? Yeah... the last grasping straw before bankruptcy.
Uh...
I would say that Fortune Cards are very different then Item Cards. Item Cards are just a visual way to organize treasure. I would say that Fortune Cards are closer to Plot Twist Cards, although Fortune Cards seem to have a more direct effect on game play, and are collectible.
Jeremy Mac Donald |
Yes I think so. IMO, Paizo would only be interested in the Brand. When companies decide to end of line of business (which would not surprise me) they tend to go for a pretty good price. Truth is there just is not a huge market for the D&D brand UNLESS (and this is a big unless) one of the video game companies decided they wanted it. If that doesn't happen I imagine Paizo would be one of the few in a position to grab it and actually make use of the various IP.Note: I completely understand this is unfounded speculation
Never happen. Hasbro does not normally sell IP they are scrupulous about renewing and defending their IP too - even old stuff no one knows anything about. There have been bids on Jem and the Holograms (a cartoon and toy line from the mid '80s aimed at female tweens). What Hasbro wanted for the product was always considered outrageous by interested fans (apparently a lot of young ladies simply fell in love with this product and some of them eventually became successful, and rich, business women).
The scene would always go something like, Paizo expresses interest in IP that has been dead and fallow for 7 years, Hasbro says 15 million dollars before we'd even think about talking about it...unless your talking about a license we can revoke.
Paizo could never justify spending the kind of cash Hasbro would want. Better that they use the money giving their employees raises or expanding product line.
Nor is Hasbro crazy with this policy - I use Jem and the Holograms for a reason. There are rumours of a movie and if its true then all these late 30's women, now moms and aunts and such, will drag every young female they know to see it. They have a nice disposable income, they'll buy the DVD, they'll buy the toys as gifts for all the young females in their lives etc.
The end result is that Hasbro probably stands to make something to the tune of 60-90 million on a piece of IP that was only ever really big for three years in the mid '80s. That's a sweet profit on 25 year old IP - and IP that is only really known in a big way to a pretty limited group of people.
This is why Hasbro won't even talk about giving up the IP unless there is an absolute mountain of cash on the table and its pretty inconceivable that Paizo would ever agree to pay that mountain of cash.