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I'm still confused here..
Ok, The belt is CL 8th. This does not change when we go from a +2 belt to a +4 belt? The price goes up but the CL does not?
So, if I'm understanding what is written in the book...
A 3rd lvl wizard can make a +2 belt just as easily as he can make a +6 belt as long as he has enough gold?
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I'm still confused here..
Ok, The belt is CL 8th. This does not change when we go from a +2 belt to a +4 belt? The price goes up but the CL does not?
So, if I'm understanding what is written in the book...
A 3rd lvl wizard can make a +2 belt just as easily as he can make a +6 belt as long as he has enough gold?
Yes. It will take him significantly longer to craft the +6 belt, though, as crafting time is based on price.
Wow. That just seems ... wrong. Why then put the cap on Craft Arms of having to be three times the enhancement bonus?
Well, In 3rd edition caster level of such items was based on actual bonus granted but I can't find such rule in PF item creation rules except specifically for weapon and armor enhancement bonuses. One of things that it would be good to have back.
Wow. That just seems ... wrong. Why then put the cap on Craft Arms of having to be three times the enhancement bonus?
I suppose it's there because magic weapons and armor have larger impact on a game than the other magic items
It's also easier to regulate and create rules because of its standardization. How would you do this for Wondrous Items? You would have to take each item individually, assign a fairly subjective CL, and then no one would know what to do for custom created items. As it is, it's still hard to figure that out.
The reality is that the cost issue should serve perfectly well to keep things out of the hands of lower level players.
It's also easier to regulate and create rules because of its standardization. How would you do this for Wondrous Items? You would have to take each item individually, assign a fairly subjective CL, and then no one would know what to do for custom created items. As it is, it's still hard to figure that out.
The reality is that the cost issue should serve perfectly well to keep things out of the hands of lower level players.
Fair enough on the cost keeping out of of the clutches of the wee lil 'uns. I can dig it.
On the other hand... How did they come up with the caster lvl of the item to begin with? Surely they already had some formula in mind to assign the stat in the first place?
I suppose it's there because magic weapons and armor have larger impact on a game than the other magic items
Circlet of appropriate spellcasting ability bonus +6: +3 to saving throw DC and concentration checks not counting bonus spells.
Belt of giant strength +6 plus falchion: x1-1/2 Strength bonus added to damage, increased chance of critical hits doubling that. Ok its more expensive than +4 weapon but if you can pool resources you can craft it earlier than 12th level AND Craft Woundrous Item is really more useful feat than Craft Magical Arms And Armor.
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It's also easier to regulate and create rules because of its standardization. How would you do this for Wondrous Items? You would have to take each item individually, assign a fairly subjective CL, and then no one would know what to do for custom created items. As it is, it's still hard to figure that out.
The reality is that the cost issue should serve perfectly well to keep things out of the hands of lower level players.
Fair enough on the cost keeping out of of the clutches of the wee lil 'uns. I can dig it.
On the other hand... How did they come up with the caster lvl of the item to begin with? Surely they already had some formula in mind to assign the stat in the first place?
Caster level of the highest spell used in the creation of the item in question.
The CL for most magic items is not in the requirements section. They are listed there to give a GM an "Average" CL for things like dispel magic and identify DC's on the fly.
The real control over what magic items are in the game falls down to how much money the DM lets into the game. That and a mature conversation between the players and the DM to set expectations.
Caster level of the highest spell used in the creation of the item in question.
Nope. A pearl of power (1st level spell) doesn't have any spell in it's creation and only requires being able to cast 1st level spells (so, CL1) but has a CL of 17. There's many more examples, the PoP is just extreme and easy as example.
EDIT: For completeness sake, the reverse can also be true; a Periapt of Wound Closure has a CL of 10, yet requires the Heal spell which has a minimum caster level of 11.
Caster level of the highest spell used in the creation of the item in question.Nope. A pearl of power (1st level spell) doesn't have any spell in it's creation and only requires being able to cast 1st level spells (so, CL1) but has a CL of 17. There's many more examples, the PoP is just extreme and easy as example.
EDIT: For completeness sake, the reverse can also be true; a Periapt of Wound Closure has a CL of 10, yet requires the Heal spell which has a minimum caster level of 11.
Basically the caster level of an item does not follow logic and is fairly random, roughly based on the overall power of the item and spells used.
Caster level of the highest spell used in the creation of the item in question.Nope. A pearl of power (1st level spell) doesn't have any spell in it's creation and only requires being able to cast 1st level spells (so, CL1) but has a CL of 17. There's many more examples, the PoP is just extreme and easy as example.
EDIT: For completeness sake, the reverse can also be true; a Periapt of Wound Closure has a CL of 10, yet requires the Heal spell which has a minimum caster level of 11.
Sovereign Glue is probably the worst offender of the lot, IMHO. 2nd level spell (Make Whole), caster level 20. Also a great argument against CL being a requirement, since I can't imagine many 20th level casters sitting around spending their time making glue.
Sovereign Glue is probably the worst offender of the lot, IMHO. 2nd level spell (Make Whole), caster level 20. Also a great argument against CL being a requirement, since I can't imagine many 20th level casters sitting around spending their time making glue.
Sovereign glue had CL 20 in 3.0/3.5 and you could not create items without meeting their CL then so there was no point in changing it. Giving it so high CL is actually reasonable as it is powerful magic item. Few effects are capable of permanently bonding two objects and can be only undone by damaging either object or using universal solvent (which is also CL 20).
Caster level of the highest spell used in the creation of the item in question.It's also easier to regulate and create rules because of its standardization. How would you do this for Wondrous Items? You would have to take each item individually, assign a fairly subjective CL, and then no one would know what to do for custom created items. As it is, it's still hard to figure that out.
The reality is that the cost issue should serve perfectly well to keep things out of the hands of lower level players.
Fair enough on the cost keeping out of of the clutches of the wee lil 'uns. I can dig it.
On the other hand... How did they come up with the caster lvl of the item to begin with? Surely they already had some formula in mind to assign the stat in the first place?
The belt is CL 8. Bull str is a 2nd lvl spell..
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The belt is CL 8th.
A 3rd lvl wizard can make a +2 belt just as easily as he can make a +6 belt as long as he has enough gold?
Correct and the 3rd level Wizard will make both items with CL minimum of 3 or as high as CL 5 (his level) at his option.
The same as if he made a Pearl of Power at 1st level of a 1st level slot, it would be CL 1.
Few points that people seem to get confused
To create magic items, spellcasters use special feats which allow them to invest time and money in an item's creation. At the end of this process, the spellcaster must make a single skill check (usually Spellcraft, but sometimes another skill) to finish the item. If an item type has multiple possible skills, you choose which skill to make the check with. The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Setting the Caster Level
From Magic Item Descriptions (Caster Level): For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
From Creating Magic Armor: Creating magic armor has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the armor. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Magic armor or a magic shield must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any armor or shield special abilities.
Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator's caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. A magic weapon must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus to have any melee or ranged special weapon abilities.
CL listed after the Aura in magic items is NOT a requirment to create the item.
It is simply used to set the craft DC check.
A 1st level wizard can try and craft a Belt of Giant Strength.
He needs wonderous item creation feat, this is mandatory
Belt of Giant Strength CL8
Base DC to craft 5+CL = 5+8 = 13 DC
Dosen't have bull stength on his spell list +5 to DC
(belt is not spell trigger or spell completion)
Total DC 18
1st level wizard 18INT will have a Spellcraft of +8 which means he's got a 50% chance of success at first level assuming he comes across 2000 gold to make the item.
Of course failing this check results in losing all 2000 gold so making items before you can't fail the check i.e. you bonus > the DC is a risky venture.
Recap
Caster Level on items listed as CL.... is NOT a requirment
If you don't meet a requirment in the requirment list add +5 to the DC
If the item is spell completion or spell trigger then having a requirment spell on your list is MANDATORY
The is balenced becuase it allows lower level casters to make just about anything BUT there is a risk involved in failing the check. which is why you MUST NUST MUST enforce the DC check on players when crafting items
Beating the dead horse, but it keeps zombie'ing on us.
The Caster Level isn't listed as a requirement for the belt. For a lot of wondrous items it's not.
The Caster Level 8 is just a 'typical' belt, should you come across one or buy it. Even this is only important if someone tries to actively destroy it (or negate the magic in it).
If you have bull's strength as a spell, the craft DC for a belt, no matter what the bonus, is going to be 8. (5 plus minimum level to cast the spell 3).
The resulting caster level of THAT belt will be whatever CL you are when you made it.
Perfect example! Except Craft wondrous items has a req lvl of 3. >.>....Few points that people seem to get confused
Stuff about 1st. lvl wizards doin stuff.
hehehe except that ;)
the example still holds since what 1st level chracter has 2000gold to role a 50% chance on ?
you'll prob be 3rd level before you have 2000gold to try
and at that point your spellcraft is +10, and you can have Bull Strength on your spell list making it +10 Spellcraft vs DC13
pretty good odds of not failing but still a chance
I'm interested to know the answer to this question as well.
As it is, assuming gold is obtained one way or another, nothing prevents someone from crafting a +10 belt/headband. Or higher, even.
I'm interested to know the answer to this question as well.
As it is, assuming gold is obtained one way or another, nothing prevents someone from crafting a +10 belt/headband. Or higher, even.
thats the thing its gold limited which is determined by GM thus under control
nothing prevents someone from crafting a +10 belt/headband. Or higher, even.Other than the items don't exist? No.
So you would need a DM to explicitly say:
"Yes I will create this new +10 Belt of Str for you so you may make it."
If we were limited to the items listed, the "magic item creation" section would say so. In that section, the table "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" lists "Ability bonus (enhancement) : Bonus squared x 1,000 gp" so if someone wants to craft a +10 item, the only limiting factor is the gold (10x10x1000). 100k gp isn't that rare when you reach the higher levels, and that's not including the various possible cost cuts.
I just wanted to point out that, as it is, crafting such a powerful item isn't forbidden by the rules as written. Nor is it limited by CL while it should be (like the weapon and armor bonuses). Asking for 3 CL (or more) for each +2 is largely possible. Same goes for skills, by the way: asking for 1 CL (or more) for each +1, for instance.
thats the thing its gold limited which is determined by GM thus under control
True. But GM fiat about the characters' wealth is seldom seen as justified, especially if it's against one character (who specialized himself on crafting, investing into the required feats and skills, and dedicating time towards his goal).
As a GM myself, I would not forbid such uses of Craft, but I would tell the player that working on such a powerful item could attract attention (thieves, magic guild, anti-magic clerics, etc) if they aren't careful. If the character (and his party, if they support him - and why wouldn't they?) survives the following encounter(s) with his item intact, good for him. If not, well, that's another plot hook ("let's recover our stolen loot", for instance).
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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"Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" lists "Ability bonus (enhancement) : Bonus squared x 1,000 gp" so if someone wants to craft a +10 item, the only limiting factor is the gold (10x10x1000).
I just wanted to point out that, as it is, crafting such a powerful item isn't forbidden by the rules as written.
Since my point apparently wasn't clear, let me try again.
A +10 stat boosting item doesn't exist, so it requires a DM to say "yes that item exists" before a player can make it. The chart is a last resort DM tool when the DM (not the player) is creating new items.
On a similar yet slightly different point can anyone explain item selling to me?
I am a PC wizard and make an item (paying 1/2 its sale cost in materials), but I can only sell it for 1/2 price (and so I break even)
However, buying the same item from a shop means I have to pay full price.
Why the dramatic difference?
Are we saying;-
1) that PC wizards have more overheads then NPC wizards?
2) That NPC wizards likewise only sell for 1/2 cost to a shop and the shop is the one increasing the price?
Assuming that wizards are intelligent (so much of the class relies on Int after all), why is it they have no economic sense?
Assuming that wizards are intelligent (so much of the class relies on Int after all), why is it they have no economic sense?
Because the world of RPGs have no economic sense. :) Best not to poke too hard at how the economy of Golarion works, because you'll soon find that it simply doesn't. The 1/2 price rule is a construct of game balance, not economics.
1) that PC wizards have more overheads then NPC wizards?
2) That NPC wizards likewise only sell for 1/2 cost to a shop and the shop is the one increasing the price?
The rule exists that way because of balance issues. Sometimes we just have to accept that the rules don't make much sense. However, it can be decently explained:
A PC wizard is mostly out adventuring, and if he wants to sell something, he just spends a few hours or so trying to get the best price. An NPC wizard that makes his fortune on creating magic items likely has a HUGE network of buyers, meaning he can put a higher price on them. He also has a reputation as an manufacturer of high-quality goods, a quality brand so to speak, which means the price can be higher. Also, he's not in a hurry to sell them and can wait until someone comes along willing to pay full price.If a PC wizard were to spend months finding the perfect buyer, I'd allow him to earn the money from it. However, the probably easiest way to represent this is to use the Craft skill rules on profit but make a Spellcraft check instead (or whatever check is needed for the item in question) to determine the amount of profit made.
A 1st level wizard can try and craft a Belt of Giant Strength.
He needs wonderous item creation feat, this is mandatoryBelt of Giant Strength CL8
Base DC to craft 5+CL = 5+8 = 13 DCDosen't have bull stength on his spell list +5 to DC
(belt is not spell trigger or spell completion)Total DC 18
1st level wizard 18INT will have a Spellcraft of +8 which means he's got a 50% chance of success at first level assuming he comes across 2000 gold to make the item.
Of course failing this check results in losing all 2000 gold so making items before you can't fail the check i.e. you bonus > the DC is a risky venture.
I just wanted to point out that qa 1st-level character can't possibly create wondrous items, and that in your example it is not at all a risky venture since the crafter would just take 10 to auto succeed (I cannot think of a situation where you could craft, but not also take 10).
On a similar yet slightly different point can anyone explain item selling to me?
I am a PC wizard and make an item (paying 1/2 its sale cost in materials), but I can only sell it for 1/2 price (and so I break even)
However, buying the same item from a shop means I have to pay full price.
Why the dramatic difference?
Are we saying;-1) that PC wizards have more overheads then NPC wizards?
2) That NPC wizards likewise only sell for 1/2 cost to a shop and the shop is the one increasing the price?Assuming that wizards are intelligent (so much of the class relies on Int after all), why is it they have no economic sense?
Actually, it's not terrible inaccurate.
Your PC wizard is selling it as quickly as possible. He actively is trying to unload it. Magic items tie up a lot of money for the shop. Ever watch pawn stars? The guy he's selling it to will want to make a profit.
Sure, he could put a full price tag on it, and wait for someone to buy it like those hum drum NPC wizards. But he doesn't have a shop... and probably won't stay in one place for long, so marketing is going to be hard.
Ever DM'd a random encounter where some traveling fop goes up to you and says "OHhhh is that a +3 sword of shwinging? I will SooooOOoo buy that for full market price from you here and now! Oh, you're a paladin and this is significant to you? You devilish rook. +25%. No? +50% and that's my final Off-ah."
So when I calculated the full price of Magic missile wands, they can all be made by a minimum caster by pouring gold pieces into them during construction.
One missile per charge=750
2 missiles=2250
3 missiles=3750
4 missiles=5250
5 missiles=6750
Sure the description changes slightly, but that seems to be it.
If someone tries to make too powerful a wand, this might happen...
a wand covered with thorns and capped with a blood stone
The wand does 1D4 to anyone who grasps it, but the command word is “Yeowtch!”. It is a 5th caster level wand of magic missiles(worth 3750 gold and has full charges).
I'm still confused here..
Ok, The belt is CL 8th. This does not change when we go from a +2 belt to a +4 belt? The price goes up but the CL does not?
So, if I'm understanding what is written in the book...
A 3rd lvl wizard can make a +2 belt just as easily as he can make a +6 belt as long as he has enough gold?
There is a loop hole in Craft Wondrous items. The Craft Armor and Arms has the rule that the crafter needs to be 3 x the bonus, but Craft wondrous items does not list this out. Some magic items created with craft wondrous items, does list this in there Item Description (Ring of Defense) for example while other do not. Some even use a different formula, like bracer of defense (caster level x 2), which i think is due to them allowing the ac to go up to ac 8.
If your a player, ask your DM what he wants to do.
If your a DM, you can come up with your own rules.
For my homebrew games, i have already decided to apply the bonus x 3 to wondrous items (unless the items lists something simular already). Otherwise, you will have players wanting to make weapon and armor out of Wondrous items all the time.
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Also, the CL 8, is in reference to the items saving throws, vs being dispelled. Also if the item were to cast a spell effect, it would be treated as if cast by an 8th level caster...but that does not apply for the belts since they do not cast a spell effect.
The spell listed for creation is mostly fluff in this case. The ability bonus are based off bonus time cost, and not based off the spell itself.
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By RAW one could look at the DC as being DC 5 + CL of spell = (cat grace 2nd level spell, 3rd level Caster level) = Total of 5+3 = DC 8 to make
This would apply regardless of bonus.
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ON the Other Hand
Like i said, i think this is a loop hole, so i use in home-brew Bonus x 3. So the DC to create and the minimum level need to create the belts would go up based on caster level.
+2 magic belt = 6th level minimum caster level = DC 5 + 6 = DC 11
+4 magic belt = 12th level minimum caster level = DC 5 + 12 = DC 17
+6 magic belt = 18th level minimum caster level = DC 5 + 18 = DC 23
...............
Anyway to each his own.
On a similar yet slightly different point can anyone explain item selling to me?
I am a PC wizard and make an item (paying 1/2 its sale cost in materials), but I can only sell it for 1/2 price (and so I break even)
However, buying the same item from a shop means I have to pay full price.
Why the dramatic difference?
Are we saying;-1) that PC wizards have more overheads then NPC wizards?
2) That NPC wizards likewise only sell for 1/2 cost to a shop and the shop is the one increasing the price?Assuming that wizards are intelligent (so much of the class relies on Int after all), why is it they have no economic sense?
Actually, it's not terrible inaccurate.
Your PC wizard is selling it as quickly as possible. He actively is trying to unload it. Magic items tie up a lot of money for the shop. Ever watch pawn stars? The guy he's selling it to will want to make a profit.
Sure, he could put a full price tag on it, and wait for someone to buy it like those hum drum NPC wizards. But he doesn't have a shop... and probably won't stay in one place for long, so marketing is going to be hard.
Ever DM'd a random encounter where some traveling fop goes up to you and says "OHhhh is that a +3 sword of shwinging? I will SooooOOoo buy that for full market price from you here and now! Oh, you're a paladin and this is significant to you? You devilish rook. +25%. No? +50% and that's my final Off-ah."
Yes I watch Pawn Stars.
He(not Chumley or the old guy) usually pays the base price in money, and half what more he can get in trade. Even a traveling peddler will have items they are trying to unload, like a wand with 5 charges left.