A player in my Savage Tide campaign is running a gnome bard. He's 3rd level. In most combat rounds after he initiates his Bardic Performance, he uses a whip to try to trip opponents. Unfortunately, he has a +0 CMB and almost always fails.
I'm thinking of making suggestions to this player on ways to make his bard more combat-friendly. Obvious ones include archery and weapon finesse with a rapier. Are there any other less obvious suggestions for melee goodness with a small-sized bard?
Attempting a trip action in combat is a completely viable option and shouldn't be devalued at the table. Being small only nets you a total of -2 to combat maneuvers if you're relying on strength (-2 STR, -1 size) so it's hardly a wasted effort. However, to have a +0 at 3rd level would mean that he is attempting to trip people with an 8 strength? Yikes, double yikes, and yikes some more.
Tell us a bit about the bard. Stats, selected feats, and a general concept from the player would be very helpful.
Edit: Missed a whole thought.
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He can use a longspear and hide behind the tank while attacking.
He can take a level of fighter or use a feat so that he can use a greataxe. The small version of greataxe does 1d8, same with greatsword. Knowing his stats and feats might help here. Or just a basic idea of them.
He can use a shortbow already and taking some feats to help that like point blank or precise shot would help.
Please understand that I'm a long-time GM and he's a great player. No criticism is implied. But I do think a friendly GM with a new ruleset (and Pathfinder is still pretty new) should take it on himself to point out a few basic optimization choices the player might make.
Okay, here are some details:
STR: 8(-1)
DEX: 13(+1)
CON: 14(+2)
INT: 14(+2)
WIS: 10
CHR: 17(+3)
Feats:
Knack for Magic (bonus) (+2 bonus to Spellcraft, extra spell-like abilities)
Skill Focus – Perform (Oratory)
Lingering Performance
Bard type: Street Performer. He's a typical light-hearted and optimistic gnome with a love of the flashy and offbeat.
Have Indiana Gnome (sorry, could not resist) read this : Treantmonk's guide to bards.
It should cover the basics.
Next, have him stack up on alchemicals - they'll open a lot of options in combat, and get a wand or two of low level offensive spells (magic missile?) - He did max out UMD right?
If he wants to go melee (trip and etc.) have him rework his stats, as dumping STR will hurt him a lot... in fact, you should not drop STR with a Bard.
I'm looking at Skill Focus (Oratory) and all I can think is "why?" Diplomacy's nice and all, but it's usually not worth spending feats on unless it's very heavy on the intrigue. I'm also looking at his stats and wondering why intelligence was prioritized above dexterity, and why wisdom wasn't dumped for a bonus elsewhere. But hey, it's not my character.
Looking at this guy, archery is his best bet. When he's performing Inspire Courage (he's not one of the archetypes, is he?) he could be clicking out bolts/arrows and enjoying the bonus he's providing the group. Without precise shot it's not a good idea for him to be firing into melee, but there are generally a few mooks on the outskirts attempting to razzle-dazzle his party with spells.
If you're willing to work with him and help him rebuild the character, it'd be very easy to rebuild his character into a Dazzling Display type. In fact, perform (Comedy) is a stand-in for intimidate, and it's right up his alley.
I'm looking at Skill Focus (Oratory) and all I can think is "why?"
I played around with statting up a bard who specialized in Perform (oratory) because I figured that he could use his bardic abilities (inspire courage, competence, etc.) while keeping his hands free. Then you add in Skill Focus (Perform: Oratory) and you get better.
Right?
I'm looking at Skill Focus (Oratory) and all I can think is "why?"I played around with statting up a bard who specialized in Perform (oratory) because I figured that he could use his bardic abilities (inspire courage, competence, etc.) while keeping his hands free. Then you add in Skill Focus (Perform: Oratory) and you get better.
Right?
Choosing dance, oratory, sing, and/or comedy are all great because they leave your hands free to do useful stuff, I agree. But barring the situationally useful countersong/distract, bardic performances only require a base rank in perform skills and never require a perform check. That makes skill focus: Perform only useful on actual skill checks.
This is fine, since perform is actually 3 skills for a bard. But Perform checks are rare and useful generally only for flavor; the gold you earn is negligible at any level above 1st. Really though, the only things you ever need to take skill focus in are a) skills with naturally high DCs, like Use Magic Device or b) combat skills that you'll never auto-succeed on, like Acrobatics, Bluff, Intimidate, or Stealth.
Otherwise you're just really good at a skill that doesn't reward you for being really good, which is a waste of a feat.
Okay, here are some details:
STR: 8(-1)
DEX: 13(+1)
CON: 14(+2)
INT: 14(+2)
WIS: 10
CHR: 17(+3)Feats:
Knack for Magic (bonus) (+2 bonus to Spellcraft, extra spell-like abilities)
Skill Focus – Perform (Oratory)
Lingering PerformanceBard type: Street Performer. He's a typical light-hearted and optimistic gnome with a love of the flashy and offbeat.
If he likes the whip (my half-elf bard loved his), I'd suggest the Indy-trait from "Adventurer's Armory" and the Scorpion Whip. For tripping, he'd need to pick up a few feats: Agile Maneuvers, which someone mentioned, and go up the Improved Trip line.
Perform: Oratory is good. Acting is also good, as it gives a bonus on Disguise.
In the combat-friendly arena, apart from what's mentioned above, a bow or Rapier & Weapon Finesse would be good. And remember you can have a rapier in one hand and a whip in the other. Don't use both in the same round, and there's no two-weapon penalty.
Oh, and the Vanish spell from the APG is your bard's friend. Usable at first level! :)
Just some thoughts.
How about using the Intimidate skill to demoralize, when there are no other combat options available? Intimidate is a class skill for a bard, so even if you have only one rank in it, you can have a +7 (1 for rank +3 for the ranked class skill bonus + 3 for CHA). Could be a +9 if you put 3 ranks into it, and could be as high as +11 at next level assuming you raise your CHA at 4th.
Not as effective as a trip, but no need to spend feats on improving your CMB or range attacks.
Would be fun to roleplay a street performer gnome demoralizing an enemy, too :-).
In general, bards seem to have a lot more options at 4th level, when they can at least get 2nd level spells, so no need to do anything drastic at 3rd.
How about using the Intimidate skill to demoralize, when there are no other combat options available? Intimidate is a class skill for a bard, so even if you have only one rank in it, you can have a +7 (1 for rank +3 for the ranked class skill bonus + 3 for CHA). Could be a +9 if you put 3 ranks into it, and could be as high as +11 at next level assuming you raise your CHA at 4th.
Not as effective as a trip, but no need to spend feats on improving your CMB or range attacks.
Would be fun to roleplay a street performer gnome demoralizing an enemy, too :-).
In general, bards seem to have a lot more options at 4th level, when they can at least get 2nd level spells, so no need to do anything drastic at 3rd.
I agree, it is such an easy thing to do to demoralize and give the enemy -1 while at the same time giving party plus ones to some things and the check is quite easy. 1d20 + intim skill vs. 10 + HD of mob.
I agree, it is such an easy thing to do to demoralize and give the enemy -1 while at the same time giving party plus ones to some things and the check is quite easy. 1d20 + intim skill vs. 10 + HD of mob.
Demoralize should give a -2, no?
Correct, I must have been thinking about something else at the time :)