I rather like the Samurai. (even if I´m more inclined to use it slightly re-flavored as a Mongol Horse Lord type)
I think the reasons there isn´t as much discussion is:
* It´s REALLY similar to Cavalier, without presenting balance issues like Ninja/Rogue, so most people don´t see too much to discuss.
* No really new mechanics/subsystems at play, like Grit or Ninja Ki Tricks, etc.
* Cavaliers maybe aren´t THE most popular class, and people like to discuss things relevant to their own games.
I definitely think it´s the one class that needs the least work to make it publishable.
Question for Jason. The Ninja and Gunslinger have been controversial
When has anything not been controversial?
Is there any chance one or all these classes will be dropped or the supplement delayed, something I would honestly prefer to what we have now?
What? No way. I want my classes. They might not be perfect right now, but they're still in beta right now. That's why they're being playtested. It's not as if the book is due to hit the printers early next week or anything like this.
From what I've seen, the classes are mostly okay. The changes they need will probably amount to mostly fine tuning. Some class features might have to be reinvented, but that doesn't take a team of a dozen specialists three years to do.
I rather like the Samurai. (even if I´m more inclined to use it slightly re-flavored as a Mongol Horse Lord type)
I think the reasons there isn´t as much discussion is:
* It´s REALLY similar to Cavalier, without presenting balance issues like Ninja/Rogue, so most people don´t see too much to discuss.
* No really new mechanics/subsystems at play, like Grit or Ninja Ki Tricks, etc.
* Cavaliers maybe aren´t THE most popular class, and people like to discuss things relevant to their own games.I definitely think it´s the one class that needs the least work to make it publishable.
Agreed, though I do think some sort of alternate non-mounted ability would be really welcome as an option instead of the mount. Throughout every incarnation of 3e rules (and now Pathfinder) I think I've only ever seen one mounted combat focused character played, and that for only a session or two - it's just too restrictive for any campaign that isn't largely going to be played in wide open areas (not just outdoors, but outdoors in usually non-difficult-terrain).
I rather like the Samurai. (even if I´m more inclined to use it slightly re-flavored as a Mongol Horse Lord type)
I think the reasons there isn´t as much discussion is:
* It´s REALLY similar to Cavalier, without presenting balance issues like Ninja/Rogue, so most people don´t see too much to discuss.
* No really new mechanics/subsystems at play, like Grit or Ninja Ki Tricks, etc.
* Cavaliers maybe aren´t THE most popular class, and people like to discuss things relevant to their own games.I definitely think it´s the one class that needs the least work to make it publishable.
Third one for me.
I haven't commented on the samurai because I'm not really interested in cavaliers in the slightest.
@DV: And that´s something common to Cavaliers, so I don´t see why any such alternate class feature wouldn´t be a modular variant like we see in the APG. Why should we expect it to be part of the Core Samurai, when it´s not in the Core Cavalier? Given Samurai can select Cavalier Orders, they are clearly VERY close to the same thing, so I don´t expect Samurai to go much further than Cavaliers went within the Core Class itself.
But I would not be at all surprised to see alternate options for Cavalier/Samurai Mounts. There´s even a pretty damn good one right now in the Superstar contest!
@DV: And that´s something common to Cavaliers, so I don´t see why any such alternate class feature wouldn´t be a modular variant like we see in the APG. Why should we expect it to be part of the Core Samurai, when it´s not in the Core Cavalier? Given Samurai can select Cavalier Orders, they are clearly VERY close to the same thing, so I don´t expect Samurai to go much further than Cavaliers went within the Core Class itself.
But I would not be at all surprised to see alternate options for Cavalier/Samurai Mounts. There´s even a pretty damn good one right now in the Superstar contest!
Heh, agreed again. It doesn't need to be part of the samurai writeup in and of itself, provided the samurai can access it the same way a base cavalier can.
I have to agree the Samurai archetype is the best made of the three and one that needs the lest work. I think it is pretty good myself.
I actually don´t see why they can´t just use Katanas as Martial Weapons 2-Handed, ie WITHOUT Exotic Proficiency. That gets rid of the Feat advantage (I´m sure plenty of Cav´s would like to use Bastard Swords 1Handed for free, but can´t)
I actually don´t see why they can´t just use Katanas as Martial Weapons 2-Handed, ie WITHOUT Exotic Proficiency. That gets rid of the Feat advantage (I´m sure plenty of Cav´s would like to use Bastard Swords 1Handed for free, but can´t)
From what I saw on some of the Katana boards they plan on making it its own new type of weapon. They didn't specify that it would or would not be exotic, just that those classes would be proficient. The whole bastard sword thing is just for the playtest. I wish they would have released the stats for the Katana with the playtest to cut half these debates down.
Because bastard swords are not Martial weapons, it may beused as a Martial weapons but it is not a Martial weapon.
I actually don´t see why they can´t just use Katanas as Martial Weapons 2-Handed, ie WITHOUT Exotic Proficiency. That gets rid of the Feat advantage (I´m sure plenty of Cav´s would like to use Bastard Swords 1Handed for free, but can´t)Either/Or... it doesnt matter to me, but if Samurai get something more that the cavilier on one hand, take something away on the other.
They get an extra weapon (which is likely to be at least as good as the bastard sw) or a free exotic... two if Naganata turns out to be different from the Halbard. Take away shield use... simple. Shield use doesnt even fit the flavour of the class.
To achieve what Paizo have stated that they are trying to do with the ALTERNATE class concept, it needs to be as apples to apples as possible.
Actually, I was wondering why it had the shield in the first place. It didn't fit the image of the katana horseman or the archer types
Samurai on horseback with shields and spears is an image i´ve regularly seen samurai depicted as, and pretty historically accurate afaik. the artwork they´re using has shoulder guards as big as a light shield... if you just want to go by certain cinematic takes on LATE period samurai dueling, they don´t even need armor proficiency, since that was all in kimono, etc.
Girlfriend's view on the Ninja:
"It seems like they went out and started cherry-picking abilities from Rogue, Monk, and Assassin. Additionally, they seem to have taken out all of the non-combat abilities and replaced them with combat abilities, making them a much more dangerous class without really reducing non-combat abilities. About the only thing that the rogue has in its favor is Trapfinding. That's it."
+1.
I really don't like them getting 8 skill ranks per level; 6 or even 4 per level should be enough.
Why give them Use Magic Device as a class skill? Knowledge engineering)or Ride or even Survival would be more fitting.
They get everything the rogue get except Trapfinding.
They can pick evasion as Ninja trick or multi class as a Shadow Danser.
I suspect a lot of Ninja players will pick 2 levels Shadow Danser.
Even If I want them nerfed I stilll think they should have Weapon Armor Proficiency long bow. But as KnightErrantJR put it:
Honestly, I'm just giving my first impressions. I'm more than willing to alter my opinion based on how the thing actually works in play, and from seeing how it works for others. I'm just putting out there that my gut reaction is that its a bit too powerful. I could be wrong.
well spoken KnightErrantJR.
Couple of quick notes here to the crowd.
1 - Cha will always be an important stat to the Ninja. Remember that part of the ninja's role was infiltration, which often included disguises and pretending to be someone you're not. Seeing as it is also a measure of your force of will, it does make some sense as a Ki stat. We are, as usual, open to debate on the issue. I know that MAD is a problem with the ninja at the moment.
I hope this is negotiable :(
Disguises and pretending to be someone you're not to infiltrate places works in a historical sense but not so much in a fantastical one. Real ninjas did not have access to invisibility, the ability to run over water or climb walls at a lightning fast speed. That's why they resorted to disguises. The pop culture ninjas we've grown up with are ruthless killing machines that rarely say a word. I think those are better off with a high wisdom than a high charisma. Alert and wise rather than charming and suave.
Thanks for the notes and good luck with the playtest.
Yeah, we are keeping that in mind as well. With the ninja I was trying to walk the line between the fantastical and the historical. This seemed like a synergy move to me to get that point across, but many are just seeing it as a drain on the power of the class, which I get. Problem being of course, that the power may be a bit high as it currently stands, so asking for more through stat consolidation is not necessarily the way I am leaning right now. Will see, there is still much work to be done.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I for one am very happy with Charisma as the ninja's ki stat, even if it does cause MAD. I like that they are like the sorcerer to the monk's wizard. I think another class that uses ki needs to be different and I agree with Mr. Bulmahn on how ki and charisma relate. Ninjas are more about misdirection in any story I have seen with them, whether they are mystical or not.
Charisma isn't all "Look at me!" It takes stage presence to get everyone to look where you want them to and that is the same as charisma. Any story involving a ninja that I have ever enjoyed involved a ninja who spoke and didn't wear a mask or jammies. The mask and jammies are not really historical anyway. They were feudal versions of what would be special forces today. If there is anyone in the modern day that would have to be MAD, it's them.
Further and more importantly to me and the games I play in, I can finally have a high charisma femme fatale bodyguard or assassin working for the big, bad guy with a hidden weapon ninja trick that can do more with that charisma - almost literally making it into a weapon (or even play one as a PC and not just as an NPC). I hope that doesn't get changed. Please change something else before changing that. It is actually the one thing I like best about this version of the ninja. That and the hidden weapon ninja trick (which should totally be made available to the rogue also).
I actually don´t see why they can´t just use Katanas as Martial Weapons 2-Handed, ie WITHOUT Exotic Proficiency. That gets rid of the Feat advantage (I´m sure plenty of Cav´s would like to use Bastard Swords 1Handed for free, but can´t)From what I saw on some of the Katana boards they plan on making it its own new type of weapon. They didn't specify that it would or would not be exotic, just that those classes would be proficient. The whole bastard sword thing is just for the playtest. I wish they would have released the stats for the Katana with the playtest to cut half these debates down.
+1
Playtesting the Ninja will be hard if you don't the stats.- Will katana be a 2-Handed Weapon? I hope so.
- Will it be Finesseble? I hope so.
- Will it be a 1-Handed Finesseble Weapon? I hope not.
edit:
I guess this is not what the designers/staff want to hear but it would be very nice and useful if we could get some more clarification on the stealth rules. Especially on Hide in plain sight and Hide in plain sight + spring attack.
Hide in plain sight + spring attack = sniping = –20 penalty on your Stealth check?
Or can you simply attack and hide without moving?, etc.
There have been some many threads on this topic and an answer would be nice. I guess a lot of ninja players will focus on stealth so an answer would be nice.
I think Jason (and other designers) have shown Stoic calm on the topic what's historical or not. Golarion is not earth. In Golarion people fly and cast firebalsl and there are Dragons, Halflings and Ogres.
On earth?......well we do some Ogres on earth ;-)
I see this discussion regarding Ninja's from this new book coming out called Ultimate Combat, and I feel that I need to make something clear. Ninja's won't replace Rogues, Ninjas ARE Rogues. Something else I can tell you is that with all of the Ninja Characters that I have played, they are never a base single class, it is always Ninja/something. They don't want people knowing they exist, and always strike from the shadows, never in a full on toe-to-toe with their opponents.
On a side note, this sounds like it is supposed to be for the Pathfinder RPG setting, which is a Fantasy setting. You add Gunpowder to it and it changes the game in unimaginable ways and it no longer stays a Fantasy setting after that. Now, if the Gunslinger were to use weapons like Cross-Bows, for example, then it stays in the realm of Fantasy. Trying to add Firearms into a Fantasy setting ruins it.
What about Final Fantasy?
Question for Jason. The Ninja and Gunslinger have been controversial and the reception of the Samurai has been less then enthusiastic. Is there any chance one or all these classes will be dropped or the supplement delayed, something I would honestly prefer to what we have now?
Sorry?
Read the Samurai discussions. Someone pointed it out - "why nobody discuss of the samurai?"
What people answered? Because there is nothing to discuss. The class is balanced and well made. Fix Ronin challenge and MAYBE find an alternate for the mount (an heirloom weapon has been proposed).
The Ninja could be fine as-is. Someone think is OP, but I think it cacthes exactly the flavour of the class. It works. In few thred slight nerfs has been proposed (just get rid of free uses of ki based talents). If someone find it OP compared to rogue, understimates 1) trapfinding 2) non automatic evasion 3) the need of an additional stat.
IMHO is better keep the ninja as is or slightly nerf him, and find few boosts for rogues (an HiPS talent, a Flask sneak attack talent -maybe limited per day, a skill boosting talent fluffed as sudden inspiration).
In this way, awesome Rogue AND awesome Ninja.
Gunslinger.. well, IMHO the all gun build should be one option of the class. Boos skills to 4/lvl, and make hit a musket sharpshooter, an handgun carzy shooter, but a duelist or a handgun + cutlass pirate too.
Gunslinger is the only class that needs work here - and please, keep it. I wayted YEARS for something like this. it just need to get rid of some of the grit deeds, which should be automatic (like the shoot to the locks one). Then the list could be expanded for acrobatic or dueling deeds. Gunslinger AND/OR Swashbuckler with the same alternate class.
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IMHO is better keep the ninja as is or slightly nerf him, and find few boosts for rogues (an HiPS talent, a Flask sneak attack talent -maybe limited per day, a skill boosting talent fluffed as sudden inspiration).
So the fix is slightly nerfing him and boosting the rogue? Perhaps a good advice.
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IMHO is better keep the ninja as is or slightly nerf him, and find few boosts for rogues (an HiPS talent, a Flask sneak attack talent -maybe limited per day, a skill boosting talent fluffed as sudden inspiration).
So the fix is slightly nerfing him and boosting the rogue? Perhaps a good advice.
IMHO the rogue does quite fine - but a thing I observed, is the only class my player multiclass. I consider it something to reflect upon (first and foremost, of course, as a DM and how I handle my campaign before put blame on rules).
My humble proposal above is based on classic shadowdancer dip, flask sneak attack present in 3.5 and now gone, and the new cross class skill rules giving less edge to the rogue inthe skill department.
And.. all three things can be made talents, I suppose...
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First Impressions:
1) Have to agree with Seeker on the Ninja Tricks. We hatesss them, precioussssss. They should be Rogue Talents. I have no objection to some requiring a Ki Pool as not all Rogue Archetypes benefit from all the Rogue Talents, but this seems to distance it too much from the base class. It also makes supporting the Ninja more difficult as it means every Rogue talent in future will have to be mentioned whether it's also usable by Ninjas as a Ninja Trick rather than using their Rogue Talent trick. Muddles things too much.
2) Ninja Tricks are overpowered. This mostly applies to the magic tricks. There should probably be a minimum level (and Charisma) applied to these to make them less powerful at low levels. I know Ninjas magically vanishing is pretty much the archetype's main feature but this is a bit much.
3) Ki Pool vs Evasion: Ki Pool seems more versatile, especially with the option to add extra attacks, while Evasion is much better defensively. The extra attack option probably makes this a bit more powerful, but removing it would make the ability much weaker than evasion. If changes are needed, possibly make the extra attack option a Trick/Talent? I'd also add in a Ki Strike ability to the Tricks/Talents list.
4) Overall, this is clearly a Rogue, but some of the Tricks seem more powerful than the Rogue equivalent and, conceptually, I despise the Ninja Tricks vs Rogue Talents split.
Nerf the ninja too hard would mean close eyes, ears and say "lalalalalalala" on other issues.
Moreover, please someone think of the children, and of the flavour. It's rare see mechanics and fluff so well connected. I wonder if is the case of strike him in the knees because is not perfectly comparable.
We do not even know what else is in the book, or if rogues can actually take ninja tricks.
The more I see it, after reading Paul Watson's post, the more I think that best solution is just get rid of free uses of ki powers and call it a day.
Ki> Evasion but resource management comes into play - ninja must be very careful because too many bonus attacks means finish the ki pool for other tricks quickly.
Nerf the ninja too hard would mean close eyes, ears and say "lalalalalalala" on other issues.
Moreover, please someone think of the children, and of the flavour. It's rare see mechanics and fluff so well connected. I wonder if is the case of strike him in the knees because is not perfectly comparable.
We do not even know what else is in the book, or if rogues can actually take ninja tricks.
The more I see it, after reading Paul Watson's post, the more I think that best solution is just get rid of free uses of ki powers and call it a day.
Ki> Evasion but resource management comes into play - ninja must be very careful because too many bonus attacks means finish the ki pool for other tricks quickly.
I don't get all this Ki vs. evasion.
The Ninja can get evasion thrue Nija tricks or by picking 2 levels Shadow dancer.The ninja is a rogue with Ki + katana. It's too good + other stuff.
It needs a nerf, but if we boost the rogue perhaps it doesn't. But simply giving the rogue ninja tricks just won't do it.
The rogue still doesn't have Ki, Katana etc.
If every relevant ninja power uses ki (for this, we should probably get rid of the free uses 'though) I think that the class in actual gameplay will come out far less powerful than how it seems.
I frankly don't care about Katana. The could get rid of it, and who wants it takes the EWP.
If every relevant ninja power uses ki (for this, we should probably get rid of the free uses 'though) I think that the class in actual gameplay will come out far less powerful than how it seems.
I frankly don't care about Katana. The could get rid of it, and who wants it takes the EWP.
I haven't play tested it. I'm just putting out there that my gut reaction is that its a bit too powerful. I could be wrong :-)
...but still it's a rogue with cream on top.
I don't get all this Ki vs. evasion.
The Ninja can get evasion thrue Nija tricks or by picking 2 levels Shadow dancer.
The ninja is a rogue with Ki + katana. It's too good + other stuff.
It needs a nerf, but if we boost the rogue perhaps it doesn't. But simply giving the rogue ninja tricks just won't do it.
The rogue still doesn't have Ki, Katana etc.
And the Ninja doesn't have the Rapier. Your point?
The Ninja is fine as it is, the Rogue needs some minor buffs to bring it up to par with many other classes ( The Inquisitor is especially brutal at the mid to high levels ).
I don't get all this Ki vs. evasion.
The Ninja can get evasion thrue Nija tricks or by picking 2 levels Shadow dancer.
The ninja is a rogue with Ki + katana. It's too good + other stuff.
It needs a nerf, but if we boost the rogue perhaps it doesn't. But simply giving the rogue ninja tricks just won't do it.
The rogue still doesn't have Ki, Katana etc.And the Ninja doesn't have the Rapier. Your point?
The Ninja is fine as it is, the Rogue needs some minor buffs to bring it up to par with many other classes ( The Inquisitor is especially brutal at the mid to high levels ).
I would take a good 2 handed weapon on a rogue over a rapier any day. The fact that it can also be used in 1 hand is just gravy, since now you don't need to put your primary weapon away to do accrobatic stuff and be a ninja. Right now, there is a huge number of half-orc rogues because of the free falcata profficiency.
Crits tend not to do much for rogues, so the rapier is not that great for them. Most of their damage does not stack on a crit. Bastard sword profficiency is great for upping their base damage. As long as your not wasting your time with finnesse, it is a better weapon and will average higher DPR until your crit multipliable damage is 20 with a keen weapon.
What would you propose adding to the rogue? One of the most frequent comments I have seen has been get rid of seprate Ninja tricks and just give them rogue tallents, and if that is implimented then one of the strong differentiators will be eliminated.
Overall, I'm going to second the idea of making the bonus attack from Ki pool into a trick/tallent. I think that alone would bring the 2 into ballance. Maybe add a few more nifty tricks to the ki pool's base abilities, for monk and ninja.
Right now, there is a huge number of half-orc rogues because of the free falcata profficiency.
I guess you mean falchions? And I'd say that the darkvision has more to do with the half-orc rogues.
Crits tend not to do much for rogues, so the rapier is not that great for them. Most of their damage does not stack on a crit. Bastard sword profficiency is great for upping their base damage. As long as your not wasting your time with finnesse, it is a better weapon and will average higher DPR until your crit multipliable damage is 20 with a keen weapon.
A rapier is finessable, which a bastard sword is definitely not. I cannot really see them making the katana finessable. And quite honestly, after about level 5 nobody cares anymore about the base damage of the weapon, because what counts is what comes after the plus. And who would play a Rogue who uses a two-handed weapon anyway? Two-weapon fighting is where the DPR is at. Roleplaying reasons aside, that is.
What would you propose adding to the rogue? One of the most frequent comments I have seen has been get rid of seprate Ninja tricks and just give them rogue tallents, and if that is implimented then one of the strong differentiators will be eliminated.
The obvious thing to add are better Rogue talents. Since they are limited in number, they of course should be not so good as to completely supersede the older ones, but they are the obvious point of attack in buffing the Rogue. And, yeah, giving the Rogue access to the two most important Ninja talents ( Shadow Clone and Invisible Blade ) seems to be what would equal the two classes, IMO.
Actually magnuskn a two handed rogue can do rather well on the DPR scale -- the lack of penalties to hit, the ability to deal solid damage at all times stacking in with the sneak attack damage when possible lends itself to a very tight, very strong package.
Usually such a character will 'dip' into a more martial class for heavier armor but that dip isn't needed.
I do believe your last point is a very important one. Many times I think we forget that by the time the ninja is out the rogue will have many more talents too -- the rogue has talents in the core, apg, ultimate magic, and will have yet more in ultimate combat. This means he is going to have very many choices on what to pick -- the ninja will be much more limited in scope of choices and uses per day.
Actually magnuskn a two handed rogue can do rather well on the DPR scale -- the lack of penalties to hit, the ability to deal solid damage at all times stacking in with the sneak attack damage when possible lends itself to a very tight, very strong package.
Usually such a character will 'dip' into a more martial class for heavier armor but that dip isn't needed.
Interesting. I must admit that I had not looked at Rogue optimization very closely, since I don't plan on playing one and the one in my own campaign decided to play another class after his second death due to a poor will save.
I do believe your last point is a very important one. Many times I think we forget that by the time the ninja is out the rogue will have many more talents too -- the rogue has talents in the core, apg, ultimate magic, and will have yet more in ultimate combat. This means he is going to have very many choices on what to pick -- the ninja will be much more limited in scope of choices and uses per day.
Yep. All the complaints about the Ninja seem to go off the assumption that the Rogue will get no buffs with the next two books.
Yep. All the complaints about the Ninja seem to go off the assumption that the Rogue will get no buffs with the next two books.
That is not the point. Why is the talent wall there? Why have two groups of rogue talents that mimic each other in ways when you can have just one list?
You are loosing support not gaining it. Every space taken by one is lost to the other. You need to brake up talents that do more or less the same thing into two pools that fight each other for space. And which goes where? is this a ninja trick or rogue talent? Are all mystic things now solely the domain of ninja's forever baring any other type of mystic rogue?
Why are classic tropes being limited to just one archetype?
Half the tricks are repeated talents, the ki powers have an easy fix. Re balance em to 1/day and allow the ki pool to get more uses.
Making them what they are{rogue talents} does not hurt the ninja in the lest, but opens up more support for him and more options as other books come out.
A while back I built one of those half-orc falchion str rogues for a campaign, fun char I must say.
But how would a Ninja do with such a build I wonder? Right off the bat they have a 1d10 weapon. so the need for the half-orc is null unless you still really wanted that falchion.
Anyone wanna take a crack at it?
That is not the point. Why is the talent wall there? Why have two groups of rogue talents that mimic each other in ways when you can have just one list?
Because the Ninja isn't a Rogue, but a subclass with its own set of abilities. Hence it gets its own subset of talents.
The Rogue itself is a good class, but seems to fall behind most other classes ( IMO, YMMV, etc ), so adding better Rogue talents seems to me to be a good way to buff it slightly. We are way beyond the point where any large-scale fix can be done to the classes, so the variable elements of them ( i.e. feats and Rogue talents ) are the way to buff them up to the other classes.
It is a rogue,a sub class but still a rogue. The tricks are the only thing that even make it kinda a sub class. And those are rogue talents with a diff name.
No other class does this, all archetypes of barbarians can use any rage power, same with the samurai archetype. He does not disallow other samurais his talents{orders}
It is a needless wall with Zero reason to be exist, except to try and justify making the ninja something other then an archetype. As once you take those out the word count is less then some of the AGP archetypes.
It is a rogue,a sub class but still a rogue. The tricks are the only thing that even make it kinda a sub class. And those are rogue talents with a diff name.
No other class does this, all archetypes of barbarians can use any rage power, same with the samurai archetype. He does not disallow other samurais his talents{orders}
It is a needless wall with Zero reason to be exist, except to try and justify making the ninja something other then an archetype. As once you take those out the word count is less then some of the AGP archetypes.
Yeah, I know you want the Ninja to disappear because you disapprove of oriental classes, thank you.
Interesting. I must admit that I had not looked at Rogue optimization very closely, since I don't plan on playing one and the one in my own campaign decided to play another class after his second death due to a poor will save.Actually magnuskn a two handed rogue can do rather well on the DPR scale -- the lack of penalties to hit, the ability to deal solid damage at all times stacking in with the sneak attack damage when possible lends itself to a very tight, very strong package.
Usually such a character will 'dip' into a more martial class for heavier armor but that dip isn't needed.
He's right. In the DPR Olympics the TWF rogue only barely beat out the THF rogue, but had to spend 3 more feats to do it. 1 feat vs 4 out of 5 by level 10 is alot of versatility that they can pick up elsewhere. The reduced dex requirement helps too, so you can go with a 12 or 14 instead of 15+. Besides, TWF rogues don't use rapiers because it reduces bonuses from weapon specific feats like weapon focus. Kukuris are where that is at.
I do believe your last point is a very important one. Many times I think we forget that by the time the ninja is out the rogue will have many more talents too -- the rogue has talents in the core, apg, ultimate magic, and will have yet more in ultimate combat. This means he is going to have very many choices on what to pick -- the ninja will be much more limited in scope of choices and uses per day.Yep. All the complaints about the Ninja seem to go off the assumption that the Rogue will get no buffs with the next two books.
One of my biggest problems is the fact that they have seprate lists. Its a huge waste of space publishing reduntant info, its a fairly arbitrary difference with little point, and it makes it harder to support the Ninja class in future prducts. I know I will look at pretty much any rogue tallent that comes out and ask "Why can't a ninja take this?" as I already have for the ones that they do not have in common. Even then, the Ninja has the ability to take basic rogue tallents using one of his own.
I say have a small section of ninja specific tallents that rely on Ki powers and then call out any ones that work differently for Ninja as exceptions, like saying Improved Evasion only gives Standard Evasion.
Yeah, I know you want the Ninja to disappear because you disapprove of oriental classes, thank you.It is a rogue,a sub class but still a rogue. The tricks are the only thing that even make it kinda a sub class. And those are rogue talents with a diff name.
No other class does this, all archetypes of barbarians can use any rage power, same with the samurai archetype. He does not disallow other samurais his talents{orders}
It is a needless wall with Zero reason to be exist, except to try and justify making the ninja something other then an archetype. As once you take those out the word count is less then some of the AGP archetypes.
No, he is arguing the same thing I am. Present the Ninja as a standard archtype that we have before. There are already more complicated archtypes in other classes, like the druid and bard. Then, get rid of most ninja-specific tallents because they don't really add much but hurt in some ways.
Yeah, I know you want the Ninja to disappear because you disapprove of oriental classes, thank you.
No, It is an archetype. It is less complex then archetypes we have now. I have no issue with it but I do have issue with a archetype of another class bringing in new "talents,orders,rage powers, fighting styles} or what have you and disallowing them to the parent class for no reason.
They are rogue talents, half off them are pure reprints of rogue talents. No one can give me a reason why this archetype/sub class gets to be so different it is handled the opposite way every other one {including the samurai} has been.
I don't hate it, but keeping them as a new list is the only justification for it not to be an archetype and really that is really piss poor justification for making a second list of rogue talents.
By the way without the tricks{many of which are rouge talent reprints} the word count is 799. Smaller them some APG archetypes.
That is not the point. Why is the talent wall there? Why have two groups of rogue talents that mimic each other in ways when you can have just one list?Because the Ninja isn't a Rogue, but a subclass with its own set of abilities. Hence it gets its own subset of talents.
The Rogue itself is a good class, but seems to fall behind most other classes ( IMO, YMMV, etc ), so adding better Rogue talents seems to me to be a good way to buff it slightly. We are way beyond the point where any large-scale fix can be done to the classes, so the variable elements of them ( i.e. feats and Rogue talents ) are the way to buff them up to the other classes.
I have been putting it this way in the future Paizo does a book with new class abilites, we get rage powers, domains, schools, etc. But when you get to rogue talents, you have to split them into rogue talents or ninja tricks. We either get less for the rogue then other classes, or the ninja stagnates. If however the ninja tricks become rogue talents with either the ki pool requirement or the use it 1/day and then get more uses with ki points, all new talents can be taken by both. It also creates some really interesting options for multiclassing the rogue and the monk.
I have been putting it this way in the future Paizo does a book with new class abilites, we get rage powers, domains, schools, etc. But when you get to rogue talents, you have to split them into rogue talents or ninja tricks. We either get less for the rogue then other classes, or the ninja stagnates. If however the ninja tricks become rogue talents with either the ki pool requirement or the use it 1/day and then get more uses with ki points, all new talents can be taken by both. It also creates some really interesting options for multiclassing the rogue and the monk.That is not the point. Why is the talent wall there? Why have two groups of rogue talents that mimic each other in ways when you can have just one list?Because the Ninja isn't a Rogue, but a subclass with its own set of abilities. Hence it gets its own subset of talents.
The Rogue itself is a good class, but seems to fall behind most other classes ( IMO, YMMV, etc ), so adding better Rogue talents seems to me to be a good way to buff it slightly. We are way beyond the point where any large-scale fix can be done to the classes, so the variable elements of them ( i.e. feats and Rogue talents ) are the way to buff them up to the other classes.
Actually that IS kind of interesting to have rogues multiclassing with monk to access ninja tricks that have Ki requirements or rather monks multiclassing into rogue rather than ninja.
I have been putting it this way in the future Paizo does a book with new class abilites, we get rage powers, domains, schools, etc. But when you get to rogue talents, you have to split them into rogue talents or ninja tricks. We either get less for the rogue then other classes, or the ninja stagnates. If however the ninja tricks become rogue talents with either the ki pool requirement or the use it 1/day and then get more uses with ki points, all new talents can be taken by both. It also creates some really interesting options for multiclassing the rogue and the monk.
I think having two different lists can easily be mitigated by just labeling each thing in the same list as talent, trick, or talent/trick
right below the title and right above the description. ta da one list
Ninja are essentially still Rogues, just like the Hound Master in Supestar is still essentially a Cavalier, both of them still count as the Base Class for Feats, etc, which require ´Rogue Level X´.
I don't get all this Ki vs. evasion.
The Ninja can get evasion thrue Nija tricks or by picking 2 levels Shadow dancer.
The ninja is a rogue with Ki + katana. It's too good + other stuff.
It needs a nerf, but if we boost the rogue perhaps it doesn't. But simply giving the rogue ninja tricks just won't do it.
The rogue still doesn't have Ki, Katana etc.And the Ninja doesn't have the Rapier. Your point?
The Ninja is fine as it is, the Rogue needs some minor buffs to bring it up to par with many other classes ( The Inquisitor is especially brutal at the mid to high levels ).
You missed my point. It's not all about the Katana.
It's Ki + Ninja tricks + Rogue Talents + Katana.As Caineach pointed out. The rapier is no big loss, "Crits tend not to do much for rogues, so the rapier is not that great for them"
...unless you build a str based rogue. In that cases a Katana is far better than a rapier.
Ki is cool, but it gives the Ninja an edge the roguie doesn't have. Katana is just cream on top.
But a boost to the rogue might fix all this.
I disagree; the Samurai needs work and the Ninja needs a lot of work. The Gunslinger is the best one that needs the least amount of work.
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EDIT: So for those of you who remember Hulky Mcrogueboy the falchion wielding 2her half-orc rogue, if anything, the Ninja Katana wielding equivalent is even better.
You can afford to take Human since you no longer would need half-orc for the falchion, though the darkvision loss is a bummer.
But putting this Ninja versus Rogue side by side... the ninja is better. However, using 20 pt buy, the other stats do suffer, namely you must dump int to a 7 to really get anywhere. However the greater dex loss isn't actually that bad, as a Ninja, much like a Barbarian, their AC is ultimately irrelevant I feel. They'll get hit regardless, so why try and boost their AC anyway? The ninja is MUCH better off through using their shadow clone and vanishing tricks to avoid getting hit, not their AC.
Also, with the Ninja being human you can much more easily acquire Power Attack and not have to use a Rogue Talent to get it like the aforementioned half-orc rogue. Instead, you can get your full 4 ninja tricks.
I disagree; the Samurai needs work and the Ninja needs a lot of work. The Gunslinger is the best one that needs the least amount of work.
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EDIT: So for those of you who remember Hulky Mcrogueboy the falchion wielding 2her half-orc rogue, if anything, the Ninja Katana wielding equivalent is even better.
You can afford to take Human since you no longer would need half-orc for the falchion, though the darkvision loss is a bummer.
But putting this Ninja versus Rogue side by side... the ninja is better. However, using 20 pt buy, the other stats do suffer, namely you must dump int to a 7 to really get anywhere. However the greater dex loss isn't actually that bad, as a Ninja, much like a Barbarian, their AC is ultimately irrelevant I feel. They'll get hit regardless, so why try and boost their AC anyway? The ninja is MUCH better off through using their shadow clone and vanishing tricks to avoid getting hit, not their AC.
Also, with the Ninja being human you can much more easily acquire Power Attack and not have to use a Rogue Talent to get it like the aforementioned half-orc rogue. Instead, you can get your full 4 ninja tricks.
The playtest reports I have seen have actually NOT shown this per say. But they include traps. Being vulnerable to traps and AoE is somewhat more of a drawback than some people have given credit.
The playtest reports I have seen have actually NOT shown this per say. But they include traps. Being vulnerable to traps and AoE is somewhat more of a drawback than some people have given credit.
Oh what I described is basically a purely optimized 2h combat rogue, and the likewise ninja adaptation of said rogue. I entirely feel the loss of evasion and ability to deal effectively with traps levels the playing field between ninjas and rogues in the greater scheme of things.
Also, I have yet to see a ninja playtested with such a build as described.
I have to agree the Samurai archetype is the best made of the three and one that needs the lest work. I think it is pretty good myself.I disagree; the Samurai needs work and the Ninja needs a lot of work. The Gunslinger is the best one that needs the least amount of work.
I disagree with your disagreement. The gunslinger needs alot of fine tuning, The samurai is an archetype and a pretty damned good one, you guys are simply wanting it rebuilt into a full class when it works well as is and is un called for.
The ninja, is also a archetype and needs work don, such as removing the wall between talents that has no reason to be there, but will a small amount of work it'll make a fine archetype as well.