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The Ring of Revelation specifically states that it only works for characters with the relevant mystery, and that it only works on oracles.
UMD allows you to emulate a class FEATURE rather than a class per se.
So the question is, would a non-oracle be able to use UMD to get the benefit of a ring of revelation?
The Ring of Revelation specifically states that it only works for characters with the relevant mystery, and that it only works on oracles.
UMD allows you to emulate a class FEATURE rather than a class per se.
So the question is, would a non-oracle be able to use UMD to get the benefit of a ring of revelation?
UMD trumps the "only class X" rule unless there is specific rule stating that not even UMD can bypass it.
UMD trumps the "only class X" rule unless there is specific rule stating that not even UMD can bypass it.The Ring of Revelation specifically states that it only works for characters with the relevant mystery, and that it only works on oracles.
UMD allows you to emulate a class FEATURE rather than a class per se.
So the question is, would a non-oracle be able to use UMD to get the benefit of a ring of revelation?
I would think that this ruling makes more sense, but RAW, it seems to not work this way?
I would think that this ruling makes more sense, but RAW, it seems to not work this way?UMD trumps the "only class X" rule unless there is specific rule stating that not even UMD can bypass it.The Ring of Revelation specifically states that it only works for characters with the relevant mystery, and that it only works on oracles.
UMD allows you to emulate a class FEATURE rather than a class per se.
So the question is, would a non-oracle be able to use UMD to get the benefit of a ring of revelation?
Actually I was going by RAW. Even the UMD example uses a similar wording.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.
The point of the UMD for this case is specifically for items that require you to have the class feature. If the item did not require class feature X then this use of UMD would not be needed.
I would think that this ruling makes more sense, but RAW, it seems to not work this way?UMD trumps the "only class X" rule unless there is specific rule stating that not even UMD can bypass it.The Ring of Revelation specifically states that it only works for characters with the relevant mystery, and that it only works on oracles.
UMD allows you to emulate a class FEATURE rather than a class per se.
So the question is, would a non-oracle be able to use UMD to get the benefit of a ring of revelation?
Actually I was going by RAW. Even the UMD example uses a similar wording.
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20.
The point of the UMD for this case is specifically for items that require you to have the class feature. If the item did not require class feature X then this use of UMD would not be needed.
No, my point was that you could emulate the *class feature* with UMD, but not emulate having the *class itself*. So, the way I'm reading it, it seems that an oracle could get a ring to work by emulating a mystery that he or she does not have. A non-oracle emulating the same mystery via UMD however would not be able to use the ring because he can't emulate the class itself using UMD.
It's entirely possible that I'm being overly pedantic in my reading of the rules though.
Aura faint or moderate varied; CL 5th (lesser), 7th (greater), or
11th (superior)
Slot ring; Price 10,000 gp (lesser), 16,000 gp (greater), 24,000
gp (superior); Weight —
DESCRIPTION
A ring of revelation is a divine item attuned to a particular
oracular mystery and containing a revelation associated with
that mystery (see the oracle class description). While wearing
the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may
use it as if she had it as a normal class feature. The oracle
must have the appropriate mystery to use the ring, and must
meet the level requirements (if any) of the revelation itself;
for example, a ring of revelation (combat healer) is only usable
by an oracle of at least 7th level with the battle mystery. If
the oracle already has that revelation and the revelation
gives an ability with a limited number of uses per day, the
oracle can use that ability one additional time per day.
The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle.[
Read the last line. That's why UMD does not work with Ring of Revelation.
** spoiler omitted **
Read the last line. That's why UMD does not work with Ring of Revelation.
However, at the same time, UMD says the following:
"Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. "
You are emulating the mystery class feature, and your effective oracle level is check-20. So UMD would certainly imply that the for purposes of wearing and using the ring, you are an Oracle.
Yup, I had read it. But the sequence of steps above tricks the ring into thinking I'm an oracle. It seems that the purpose of UMD is to bypass such restrictions.** spoiler omitted **
Read the last line. That's why UMD does not work with Ring of Revelation.
Alternatively, that specific line would indicate an exception to the UMD rule. That's certainly how it would appear to me.
Alternatively, that specific line would indicate an exception to the UMD rule. That's certainly how it would appear to me.Yup, I had read it. But the sequence of steps above tricks the ring into thinking I'm an oracle. It seems that the purpose of UMD is to bypass such restrictions.** spoiler omitted **
Read the last line. That's why UMD does not work with Ring of Revelation.
If it were a specific exeception to UMD, wouldn't it be a lot easier to call out that you cannot UMD the requirements?
If it were a specific exeception to UMD, wouldn't it be a lot easier to call out that you cannot UMD the requirements?Alternatively, that specific line would indicate an exception to the UMD rule. That's certainly how it would appear to me.Yup, I had read it. But the sequence of steps above tricks the ring into thinking I'm an oracle. It seems that the purpose of UMD is to bypass such restrictions.** spoiler omitted **
Read the last line. That's why UMD does not work with Ring of Revelation.
It's only 1 requirement that you can't UMD. You can certainly UMD the Mystery portion. It's just the class portion that appears to be disallowed.
It's only 1 requirement that you can't UMD. You can certainly UMD the Mystery portion. It's just the class portion that appears to be disallowed.If it were a specific exeception to UMD, wouldn't it be a lot easier to call out that you cannot UMD the requirements?Alternatively, that specific line would indicate an exception to the UMD rule. That's certainly how it would appear to me.Yup, I had read it. But the sequence of steps above tricks the ring into thinking I'm an oracle. It seems that the purpose of UMD is to bypass such restrictions.** spoiler omitted **
Read the last line. That's why UMD does not work with Ring of Revelation.
It has no effect for a non-oracle, but the use of UMD makes me an oracle for the purposes of using the ring. The ring now thinks I'm an oracle. How is this sentence stopping the use of UMD for this case?
I don't see how that last sentence implies, suggests, or states that UMD cannot be used.
Exactly. Per UMD, the act of emulating a class feature gives you an effective level in the class itself.
In the context of core and therefore just the core items, if the class bit of UMD isn't for things like "I can use a Holy Avenger, even though I'm not actually a paladin", I don't know what use it would even have.
Therefore, logically, I would think UMD is meant to let you use items that normally only a member of another class could use.
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In the context of core and therefore just the core items, if the class bit of UMD isn't for things like "I can use a Holy Avenger, even though I'm not actually a paladin", I don't know what use it would even have.
Therefore, logically, I would think UMD is meant to let you use items that normally only a member of another class could use.
You can always use a Holy Avenger. It's just not as great on a non-Paladin. Also, there's no specific text exempting the use of UMD for the specific purpose of pretending to be a Paladin.
My point about the Ring of Revelation is that the text specifically disallows use by non-Oracles.
Also, there's no specific text exempting the use of UMD for the specific purpose of pretending to be a Paladin.
My point about the Ring of Revelation is that the text specifically disallows use by non-Oracles.
I don't personally see the two as different.
These issues are different, since UMD lets you emulate a class feature, but not a class directly. In the ring case, you can emulate a feature and get the class for free. In the sword case, there is no required feature available to emulate, so you cannot use UMD.I don't personally see the two as different.Also, there's no specific text exempting the use of UMD for the specific purpose of pretending to be a Paladin.
My point about the Ring of Revelation is that the text specifically disallows use by non-Oracles.
Why would the text be there if it weren't there to serve a specific purpose? Of course you can emulate the Mystery class feature. That's no problem. That last line practically reads that you can't emulate being an Oracle for the purpose of the ring.
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We have here two lines of the rules which absolutely contradict one another. The rules for Use Magic Device allow the skill to bypass the restrictions without exception. The rules for the magic ring prevent non-oracles from using it, without exception. I don't see either side offering convincing proof that the rules aren't ambiguous.
Short of a developer coming on and issuing a Word of God clarification, the conflict is left to the GM at the table to adjudicate.
"The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle."
This sentence to me means that if you gain a Mystery and a revelation but aren't an Oracle you can't use this ring. Now I'm not sure if there is even a way to gain Mystery and revelation with out being an Oracle today. Maybe there is already and I just don't know about it, like via Magic Item. In the future maybe a feat like the Eldrich Heritage chain but for Oracle Mysteries. It's possible a Prestige Class could as well. There are other prestige class that give you class abilities of another class where you don't have to be that class. Like the Horizon Walker with Ranger Favored Terrains.
So I don't think this has anything to do with UMD.
Specific trumps general.
Except the entire point of the UMD skill is to use magic items you otherwise couldn't because of what class/alignment/etc. you aren't.
In a very real sense. UMD is the specific, not the general. In general, a random non-druid gomer can't use a druid scroll, but UMD provides for an exception to that general rule.
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My Two C-bills.
The ring specifically calls out: "The ring has no effect if worn by a non-oracle." as a specific feature. The Holy Avenger doesn't say this. It simply lists that it does X in the hands of a paladin. A spell completion item doesn't say "This won't function in the hands of someone w/o the spell." Only the ring calls this out in its description, after listing the requirements for an oracle to use it.
Here's my logic.
Holy Avenger
1) Pick up sword
2) Use UMD to emulate Paladin class ability, rolling high enough to get effective character level.
3) Congratulations, you can use the holy sword as paladin of X effective character level
Ring of Revelation
1) Put ring on.
2) Use UMD to emulate class ability (mystery) and roll high enough to emulate level.
3) You're still a non-oracle.
4) Ring fails to work, due to specific exception in description of ring.
I'm going to be keeping a close eye on this thread.
Resolving the issues in this thread would definitely help with some of the ambiguity surrounding UMD.
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You cannot emulate a class directly, per UMD.
The ring lists its oracle restriction separately because technically, "being an oracle" is different from "having a mystery". This would come into play if someone found a way to get a mystery without being an oracle (say through some feat similar to Eldritch Heritage or something). As written, it does not invalidate the use of UMD, which simultaneously handles both restrictions.
Try reading what you wrote. Slowly, I'll wait.
You say you cannot emulate a class directly.
The ring states it doesn't work for a non-oracle. Which you've conceeded you cannot use UMD to tell the ring 'trust me, I'm an Oracle'
Therefore you're just proved you can't UMD to use the ring. Congratulations!
Or, you're saying that you can't emulate a class feature to gain a virtual class level to use the holy avenger, but you can emulate a class feature to count as an oracle.
FYI, I was reading from my PDF. I know I know, you used your mystic powers to assume I wasn't reading what I was talking about. Next time try less assuming and more reasoning.
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Here's a very important part of the UMD description
This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature.
I would interpret this to allow UMD for rings of revelation that have ONLY an "on use" component. (Revelations such as Surprising Charge would be allowed, but Skill at Arms would not.) How to implement revelations that gain uses per day with level - like surprising charge - is less clear. I personally would have the wearer make one roll the first time they tried to use the device in a given day and have that determine the total number of uses.
I'm going to be keeping a close eye on this thread.
How's that, blindfolded man?
I'm going to be keeping a close eye on this thread.How's that, blindfolded man?
*Reaches into pocket, pulls out rotted eyeball, places it onto thread*
Like that. Maybe you shouldn't have asked. ;P
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No problems, I'm likely a little testy today, so I may have over reacted.
For the holy Avenger, the abilities work off of the class level. So if you emulate a class ability (say, channel energy) you generate a class level, which can then (in theory) let the Holy Sword 'work off' of those. Basically you're going, "Look, I'm really a Paladin, watch me channel energy!" the sword goes "Detecting Paladin level X, engaging Y abilities at X power level."
(With the holy sword, the question might be 'is the paladin enhancement part of the sword, or a class feature?' but I'm meandering, call it lack of sleep)
In either case, what strikes me with the ring is that it calls out specifically that it doesn't work for non-oracles. If you can't emulate a class, then you can't use the ring.
In my world OT:
Hmm...
Let's consider Oracles with UMD and this item...
Let's say I have a PC with at least one level of Oracle and a huge UMD modifier. My PC puts on a Ring of Revelation, containing a revelation which is outside his mystery; let's use Channel from Oracle of Life as an example. He then makes a UMD check and gets, say, a 35.
Am I correct in saying that he counts as a 15th-level Oracle when determining how large his Channels are?
-Matt
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I'm not sure that's right. Activation is "starting", but UMD has a provision for maintaining items that have continuous effects---make a check once per hour.Rubia
The tricky thing here is that "While wearing the ring, an oracle has access to that revelation and may use it as if she had it as a normal class feature.". Combine that with "this skill does not actually let you use the class features of another class." The ring isn't directly giving you an ability, it's adding to your class feature (Revelations).
I can definitely follow the logic that this means you simply can't use the ring unless you have oracle levels. As a matter of fact after further reflection I think I would agree with this interpretation. Ignore my post above, putting these two side-by-side seems to make it pretty clear to me that UMD doesn't let you use a Ring of Revelations.
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Well- technically you could UMD to add the revelation in the ring to your list of revelations. However since you still can't use Revelations, it does you absolutely no good.
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To get more confusing... Can an anti-paladin (as an alternative Paladin) pretend to be LG and use UMD to fool the sword?
Can a Paladin of Freedom or Tyrany (Unearthed Arcana) do it?
More seriously, I'm hung up on that sentence at the end of the description. Why call it out in that one case when (at the time of writing) no one else has a mystery. I look at it as calling out "If you UMD to look like an Oracle, it won't work, because you're still not an Oracle."
Where the Holy Sword doesn't have that written.
As to emulate class feature vs emulate class... I can be persuaded that the holy sword wouldn't 'turn on' but then we're back to that line of text calling out non-oracles gaining no benefit from the ring.
Basically I read it as 'you look like a duck, you quack like a duck, but you're not a duck, it doesn't work.'
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My take on all this is simple-If you are not an oracle, and do not have some way of faking being an Oracle (UMD), then the ring is useless. In other words, it is to keep the fighters, bards, wizards, etc. who have not invested skill ranks in UMD from using the ring.