1: Ooh, where did PF add the rebuild on feats? I didn't see those, our group still thinks feats are set in stone. If you don't CManeuver normal mobs, what do you do? Just whack em and hope for the best?
The fighter can swap out his bonus feats. It's in the class description.
Remember, no class, not even the rogue with his ton of skill points, can do everything.
Except the wizard, if you give him a day notice.
Remember, no class, not even the rogue with his ton of skill points, can do everything.Except the wizard, if you give him a day notice.
Then he's not doing everything. He's still only doing some things. Also, many times skill checks need to be done right away. The paladin using Intimidate earlier is a perfect example. No time to wait for the wizard to rest and prepare new spells.
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Which is why I rock a sorcerer...Yeah, but by then you don't need him to do that anymore. You need him to do something else he didn't memorize :)Remember, no class, not even the rogue with his ton of skill points, can do everything.Except the wizard, if you give him a day notice.
I agree. I've found sorcerers to be more generally useful than Wizards.
My experience with Wizards is that they are all win or all fail. They either dominate, or don't have a spell worth a damn because they cast it last encounter.
Remember, no class, not even the rogue with his ton of skill points, can do everything.
Coming back to this point more seriously, one of the things about the rules that bugs me at a deep level is the fact that "spells >> skills" is hard-wired into the game. One 1st level spell (jump) from a 1st level caster gives you the equivalent of 10 free ranks. If the caster is 9th level, it essentially gives you 30 free ranks.
It's like the entire spells list is actively screaming "skills don't matter !!!!"
I'd be much happier if, instead of superseding skills and ability checks, spells only gave you a low bonus, capped by your number of skill ranks or ability bonus. Maybe instead of knock automatically opening a door, it would give +2 to checks to force the door, or to Disable Device checks to pick the lock. So you'd still be better off casting on the barbarian or rogue, instead of stepping on their toes.
Remember, no class, not even the rogue with his ton of skill points, can do everything.Coming back to this point more seriously, one of the things about the rules that bugs me at a deep level is the fact that "spells >> skills" is hard-wired into the game. One 1st level spell (jump) from a 1st level caster gives you the equivalent of 10 free ranks. If the caster is 9th level, it essentially gives you 30 free ranks.
It's like the entire spells list is actively screaming "skills don't matter !!!!"
It feels that way but I don't think the spells really overshadow the skills that much. In some cases they do. Fly is generally better than Climb. Invisibility is generally better than Stealth. The difference is that it still takes resources to use those spells while the skill based character doesn't need to. The skill user is ready to go without needing to wait 24 hours.
I know I would rather have color spray instead of jump prepared for my low level wizards.
Remember, no class, not even the rogue with his ton of skill points, can do everything.Coming back to this point more seriously, one of the things about the rules that bugs me at a deep level is the fact that "spells >> skills" is hard-wired into the game. One 1st level spell (jump) from a 1st level caster gives you the equivalent of 10 free ranks. If the caster is 9th level, it essentially gives you 30 free ranks.
It's like the entire spells list is actively screaming "skills don't matter !!!!"
I'd be much happier if, instead of superseding skills and ability checks, spells only gave you a low bonus, capped by your number of skill ranks or ability bonus. Instead of knock automatically opening a door, it would give +2 to checks to force the door. So you'd still be better off casting on the fighter.
My wife is playing a rogue in our current game, and I have noticed an interesting trend. Her racial +2 AND her skill focus +3 TOGETHER add up to the bonus of ONE cheapo skill+5 item. (until lv10, but half the game is kinda relevant) She is specialized in stealth, and never succeeds, because you can't stealth unless you're in total darkness under a bush behind a wall.
Wizard with invisibility passes by and asks "U jelly?"
Yes, your language appears fine, but your point falls short of the target, as we've not yet begun arguing fighter vs wizard in head to head cagematch, but rather in general effectiveness, which is more optimal, caster vs non caster.That wasn't my whole point. I also would like to champion the wizards right to have all those awesome "superpowers" as some might call them. Even though I haven't played a wizard for the last couple of years.
I'm totally on board with one small caveat:
All characters can do this, not just wizards.
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Remember, no class, not even the rogue with his ton of skill points, can do everything.Coming back to this point more seriously, one of the things about the rules that bugs me at a deep level is the fact that "spells >> skills" is hard-wired into the game. One 1st level spell (jump) from a 1st level caster gives you the equivalent of 10 free ranks. If the caster is 9th level, it essentially gives you 30 free ranks.
It's like the entire spells list is actively screaming "skills don't matter !!!!"
I'd be much happier if, instead of superseding skills and ability checks, spells only gave you a low bonus, capped by your number of skill ranks or ability bonus. Maybe instead of knock automatically opening a door, it would give +2 to checks to force the door, or to Disable Device checks to pick the lock. So you'd still be better off casting on the barbarian or rogue, instead of stepping on their toes.
I laughed pretty hard when I saw Climb was still a skill. It's a skill that dies at, what, level 4? 5?
NATURAL 1 topic.
one this is off topic.
Second if you dont like the idea of luck coming in to play then an easy way is drop the d20.
make it a d10 and then drop all things in the game by 10 (ac, checks, ect.)
To me this sort of complaining is just silly. Complaining that failure happens in the game is just not something I could ever see as a good point. You dont like the fact that you can fail? then put the game on auto win. You have a GM that wont let you? sounds like you two want to play different games.
The rules are there to make the game playable, not the reverse. If at any time they do the reverse then (God forbid I wish I weren't saying this) you ARE doing it wrong. The rules should enable the game to be played, if they disable the game from being played to your liking CHANGE THE RULES and then hush about it.
Third:
This thread has become an argument of play style choices and frankly its just an insult to gamers in general (this kind of behavior and random accusations is just too much, I didnt know what not to flag anymore) and on top of that its bad for Paizo. I just wish they would close the general discussion message boards for Paizo, if people want to complain about how wrong they got it go to another website and do it (RPG forums, RPG.net, etc)? especially if you changed the game so much that it isnt the same game anymore (why are you here complaining about a game you say you no longer play????)
I just dont understand. I respect alot of you on here. you are all good gamers, but obviously playing games has made us digress into this kind of immaturity? I just dont understand. I hate to be the first to throw down the shovel in the sandbox but I will no longer frequent the General Discussion forum because we obviously cannot except the differences of others without saying they are "not good at math" "horrible roleplayers" "Just stupid". I admit I haven't been a saint on here in all my days, but atleast I understand when enough is enough. best of luck gents, maybe there is an answer.
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Because these spells allow for parties to get by when they do not have a specific member in their group. For example a 3 man party without a Rogue.
GM: You walk up to a locked metal door.
"I superpowerattackhulksmash it" says the Barbarian.
GM: Well you roll high, but still you can't make it budge. It doesn't seem like you can even with help from you party Aiding Another.
"Ok, I cast Knock on the Barbarian" says the Wizard.
GM: He atempts to open the lock, but even with a little insight, he has no idea what he is doing, because he isn't a Rogue.
"Ok, we can't do anything in this dungeon now, lets go home" says the party.
Simply adding a +2 to someones lack of ability to do it anyways doesn't help at all.
Your GM does know that, by RAW, a 1 on a skill roll isn't an auto-fail, right? And that Intimidate is an opposed roll?
It's not opposed in PF. The DC is simply 10+HD+WIS.
My wife is playing a rogue in our current game, and I have noticed an interesting trend. Her racial +2 AND her skill focus +3 TOGETHER add up to the bonus of ONE cheapo skill+5 item. (until lv10, but half the game is kinda relevant) She is specialized in stealth, and never succeeds, because you can't stealth unless you're in total darkness under a bush behind a wall.
Wizard with invisibility passes by and asks "U jelly?"
That's not how stealth should be working. If she's focused, she should have a great Stealth check. She should be able to Stealth just fine unless she's on a featureless plane.
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I'd be much happier if, instead of superseding skills and ability checks, spells only gave you a low bonus, capped by your number of skill ranks or ability bonus. Maybe instead of knock automatically opening a door, it would give +2 to checks to force the door, or to Disable Device checks to pick the lock. So you'd still be better off casting on the barbarian or rogue, instead of stepping on their toes.
I'm moving my spells in this direction.
Ex - Find Traps gives +1/2 your caster level to Perception to just spot traps unless target has disable device in his skill list. If the target has disable device it instead it gives a + equal to caster level. In the latter case this also applies to disable checks for any traps detected.This automatically makes spells work towards party support vs. "I can do everything every other class can by myself" and is a shift back to balanced party builds.
Doing this with knock, spider climb, jump, disguise and alter self (can now target friendlies), etc.
Going to probably do something about the stat buffers also -
ex - maybe give a little extra bonus on Cat's Grace if the target has "Good" Reflex saves.
Some of the ideas are harder to implement due to multi-classing, so I am still looking for a workaround.
I removed posts that couldn't keep things civil.
I'm also locking this thread, because I think it's become clear what the sides are and that nobody is going to be swayed by any further discussion.