It seems to me that the majority of people dislike or despise dwarfs...
Can someone explain why?
Bonus points if your explanation is funny or creative.
I'd never assume that just because you have several people willing to post on a message board that they constitute a majority. Honestly, I like dwarves, though I have ideas on what I would like to see done with them to help blunt some arguments about them.
It seems to me that the majority of people dislike or despise dwarfs...
Can someone explain why?
Bonus points if your explanation is funny or creative.
It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste thier stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.
Agent Wasson
PS Actually, I love dwarfies.
Nobody wants to be George Costanza.
Thread's over, we can all go home now
I don't know that people hate dwarves so much as hate to see how dwarves are portrayed.
I've seen some brilliantly portrayed Lawful Good dwarves. Stoic, wise, and restrained. They've even been sober. That's not to say they didn't have a drink after an adventure, or even have conversations about the glories of dwarven mead, but they were well-played Lawful Good entities that also enjoyed a drink when it was the time for drinking, and who, on occasion, demonstrated a cultural dislike of elves.
But I've heard on the Paizo boards that dwarves are often portrayed as uncouth, uncivilized, belching, farting, obnoxious beer-guzzling morons designed by players to antagonize their own party.
I think it's this type of dwarf that people hate.
I actually enjoy dwarves, one of my favorite characters was a dwarf wizard. I actually put his highest score into con, then int, sure he wasn't the best wizard he could have been, but by golly it was funny to have more hitpoints than our fighter. :-)
I would first off like to say I love having dwarfs in my party because it always makes me feel like someone reliable is around (even if the player is known to run) but I can actually never bring myself to play a dwarf no matter how well it fits my character.
My guess is either I do not want the responsibility of being a reliable member (not saying I am not but I hate feeling obligated) or I can't bear the thought of an entire race of people with "short man syndrome"
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Mechanics wise...I've always theorized it's the -2 to charisma. Their supposed to be gruff and blunt. Also dwarves are better fighters than you. I think that people dislike the dwarves because they are a condensed gym teacher. They're just smaller meaner, tougher, and just as abrasive. Though in all likely hood it's because dwarves wear beards only fit for ZZ Top.
Myself, I love dwarves. The focus on gettign teh job done, sort of like a Marine family. They may not like their job, they may not like anything, but it's their job. Not only will they do their job, they will do it well, especially if they hate it. Dwarves have their pride to cultivate, work to be done, somethign to disagree with. That's all they need.
It has always been so easy to play them, and I've found that bring a bit of extra survivability to any class.
When playing one though, usually a heroic fighter of some sort, I find that despite my low Charisma, I bring the focus "down to my level". Hopefully, that didn't sound too lowbrow.
One of the many things I discovered playing NWN, was that almost every dwarf started a conversation with " Oi".
I found much to my consternation, even trying to go against the grain, my dwarfies would fall into the the same speech patterns.
"Oi, lets you an' me be gettin' erselves a pint o' ale"
*shudders in memory*
Oh, and let us not forget the NWN common name format.
Bruno Battlehammer
Ivan Ironheart
Sarag Stonefist
et al
Greg
Though in all likely hood it's because dwarves wear beards only fit for ZZ Top.
Bah, ZZ Top wishes their beards were as magnificent as a dwarf's.
Myself, I love dwarves. The focus on gettign teh job done, sort of like a Marine family. They may not like their job, they may not like anything, but it's their job. Not only will they do their job, they will do it well, especially if they hate it. Dwarves have their pride to cultivate, work to be done, somethign to disagree with. That's all they need.
It has always been so easy to play them, and I've found that bring a bit of extra survivability to any class.
I have to agree with these comments. I like dwarves myself, though that might be as much a cultural thing as anything else (they're short, stout, drink lots of beer, work hard, love their families and will kick your @$$ if you mess with them... I come from the Pennsylvania coal and steel country, that describes about most of my older relatives right there). Dwarves just feel so very "working class" to me and I like that.
Move 20ft I do not play any thing with that low of a movement.
In 1st and 2nd ed Dwarfs where great, But with 3,3.5, 3.75/pathfinder movement is so huge with game going to map based combat.
I do not play any 20ft mover unless the ride some thing or they take there 1st level as Barbarians.
I would play goblin(it move 30ft) before I play dwarf, Gnome, Halfling.
I have stopped play 3 deferent Character cause they died and came back as dwarf or gnome.
With all of that said I like
Dwarf Barbarians/ Rangers / Fighters/ Builds
Gnome Druid/Cavalier mounted Pet Builds
Gnome/ Halfling Reduced Person Arcane Caster that Ride there Familiars
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Mr. Fishy has a dwarven earth wizard and He Rules Ass. Team Dwarf!
Mr. Fishy is half Dwarf that's why he's so bad ass. If Fishys could grow beards Mr. Fishy's would provide concealment.
Elves cause cancer, people should hate them. Tordek wouldn't lie to us.
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Mr. Fishy has a dwarven earth wizard and He Rules Ass. Team Dwarf!
Mr. Fishy is half Dwarf that's why he's so bad ass. If Fishys could grow beards Mr. Fishy's would provide concealment.
Elves cause cancer, people should hate them. Tordek wouldn't lie to us.
That's right! Tordek's grandmother died from elven cancer bestowed upon her by an elf witch! Don't trust them!
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Dwarves are often portrayed as comic relief, and more players want to be heroes than clowns. As a poster above suggested, those that do, tend to do it to grief the party. While in Tolkien's writing, Thorin Oakenshield and Gimli Gloínson were portrayed straight, even the The Hobbit, the rest of the dwarves were played as a bit of a joke. As portayed in the LOTR movies, Gimli himself is usually the butt of jokes. Even in the Dragonlance Chronicles, Flint Fireforge did nothing but play straight man to the kender's antics.
Even the OP is in on this, offering bonus points for good jokes.
I like dwarves myself. I tend to portray them less boorish and more "blue-collar". The Patriarch of the major religion in my homebrew setting is a dwarf. 400+ years old, and struggling to keep the whole thing together.
Mr. Fishy has a dwarven earth wizard and He Rules Ass. Team Dwarf!
Mr. Fishy is half Dwarf that's why he's so bad ass. If Fishys could grow beards Mr. Fishy's would provide concealment.
Elves cause cancer, people should hate them. Tordek wouldn't lie to us.
Move 20ft I do not play any thing with that low of a movement.
"I hate to break it to yah bub but dwarven clerics with travel and liberation domains move at 30 (all the time), or 40 (with the domain spell longstrider)......And that is while decked out in masterwork stoneplate!"
@ Benicio
LOL!
"wait...maybe I am thinking of halflings..."
It seems to me that the majority of people dislike or despise dwarfs...
Can someone explain why?
Bonus points if your explanation is funny or creative.
Lack of awesome on the part of the haters in question.
But I've heard on the Paizo boards that dwarves are often portrayed as uncouth, uncivilized, belching, farting, obnoxious beer-guzzling morons designed by players to antagonize their own party.
I think it's this type of dwarf that people hate.
But that's the best kind to play - the uncouth stereotype! In the same way, the best way to play a half-orc is as a knuckle dragging, greataxe hugging man-ape.
I agree with what a lot of people are saying here. Dwarves have some really cool stuff going for them, and there is source material out there to paint a culture for them just as developed as that of elves. When a player actually uses this flavor, dwarves are amazing, and make for some pretty memorable characters.
Unfortunately, the stoic, dour, industrious, and dutiful dwarf is one of those cliches that's no longer a cliche, because everyone thinks that playing a dwarf that way is going to be a cliche. I think in many games, humans, elves, and half-elves are viewed as the only legitimate races, and most people who take it upon themselves to play a half-orc or any race shorter than 5 feet tall makes them either a sociopath or comic relief. I am soooooo tired of seeing parodies of Thibledorf Pwint in my parties. The original was terrible, and so are the raucous monstrosities that have been spawned by Salvatore's half-formed brainchild (The one exception I've ever seen being the most amusing Bjorn "Calamity" Drillbeard). I'd like to this race start moving in the third dimension again, stepping beyond the shallow one-shots we keep seeing.
I love dwarfs
the best dwarf scene ever is in the lord of the rings when gimli tells his story about the glittering caves
thats pure dwarvish awsomness
Thibledorf Pwint
Never even heard of this thing til I started reading these boards. Pretty sure the stereotype is older than this character. But I 'spose I could be wrong.
Greg
Dwarves are my Favorite race 75 percent of my favorite characters I have ever player are dwarves
Gotta share it!Mr. Fishy has a dwarven earth wizard and He Rules Ass. Team Dwarf!
Mr. Fishy is half Dwarf that's why he's so bad ass. If Fishys could grow beards Mr. Fishy's would provide concealment.
Elves cause cancer, people should hate them. Tordek wouldn't lie to us.
Good depiction of a dwarf. Boozing up all the time, making up ridiculous nonsense and being racist.
The sad thing is that unlike in that wave, people are often quite serious when they play their dwarves that way....
As so often, the problem with dwarves is really people: Idiots being jerks on purpose and abusing stereotypes to be as annoying or rude as possible.
Besides dwarves, that works with elves ("You're all worthless"), halflings ("I steal everything, all the time"), gnomes ("My behaviour is basically resolved by a sort of permanent confusion spell with a different list of random actions), paladins ("Having fun is sin"), and so many other things.
If we cruelly tortured these people to death for their, say, first offence, it would not be a problem. But, alas, people these days frown upon even justified slaying like this.
In 1st and 2nd ed Dwarfs where great, But with 3,3.5, 3.75/pathfinder movement is so huge with game going to map based combat.
- With the addition of Armor Training allowing fighters to move at full speed in heavy armor starting at level 7, one of the best dwarven abilities has been negated. (full move in heavy armor)
- A Human, Half-elf, or Half-orc can start with +2 Strength and 30' movement. These combine to make a much more attractive starting package for melee characters.
- Now that Paladins are entirely Charisma based rather than using Wisdom for spells, the -2 Charisma hurts more.
- Being medium size, dwarven mounts must be large, and don't fit into dungeons easily, so they're not particularly attractive mounted characters.
- No less than five races can start with +2 dex, so dwarves are pretty far down the list for ranged attackers and rogues.
- Dwarves set up to be good at druid, monk, and cleric, but there's no strong imagery for dwarven druids or monks, and -2 Charisma penalizes clerics somewhat.
re:armored speed
+1 a billion. Mind you, I LIKE the fighter armor training, but I really do feel it robbed the dwarf of one of its primary advantages as a fighter.
Then again, encumbrance rules being what they are, if most humans were honest, they'd still be moving at 20' due to all that crap they have in their "back pack".
True.
+2 to 99% of all saves you'll make in a campaign is definitely worth it. By the time you hit level 7 for a fighter you can strap on some hob nobed boots of speed if for some reason you're not meat shielding and need to move fast.
Dwarf was the traditional race of munchkins in 3.5. They actually made the best wizards, so folks who didn't care one whit about role playing tended to gravitate towards them, giving them a bad rep.
Some people are also playing out that -2 to charismia. As to the Boisterous drunken dwarves being at odds with the LG dwarven societies well, perhaps there;s a reason those dwarves are out adventuring and not back home with their clans.
+2 to 99% of all saves you'll make in a campaign is definitely worth it.
I agree that +2 to saves is a great racial feature, but offense is sexier than defense and will attract more players.
Dwarf was the traditional race of munchkins in 3.5. They actually made the best wizards . . .
In previous editions no race got +2 int. Now four races can.
Some people are also playing out that -2 to charismia.
Yes, but any race can have a low charisma, so dwarves don't really have a corner on that market.
As to the Boisterous drunken dwarves being at odds with the LG dwarven societies well, perhaps there;s a reason those dwarves are out adventuring and not back home with their clans.
I totally agree! Sometimes it's fun to play out a stereotype in character, and sometimes it's fun to pointedly break a stereotype. Adventurers are good at both.
Mr. Fishy has a Dwarf ranger (NPC) with a big floppy hat and a single shot pistol. He's a smart ass. He's also a fugitive from dwarven law. Bounty hunters (dwarven) show up once in a while.
Mr. Fishy also has a PC wizard that mocks the party elf and flanks with the rogue.
The best thing about Dwarf Hate is that it gives them a +1 to attack orcs and goblinoids!
For the most part here it is:
Dwarves can only move 20 base, but they dont get the other bonuses to being tiny, like gnomes and halflings.
Honestly, since 3.5 im not even sure WHY there is a Gnome AND a halfling race.
they just arent different enough to me.
See if you think of the 20 move tho. It's really well offset by the "Slow but Steady" feature. Just ALOT of gamers totally forget their breastplate only lets them move at 20.
Soemthing i see ALL too often over looked at weekly game sessions.
Everyone doesnt want to have a beard? Maybe thats it i guess.
We started Serpents Skull with an ALL dwarf Party.
Most of the them FEMALEs to boot.
(this was almost an all halfling party, i just didnt want to play a halfling)
We had a dwarf wizard who became an alchemist before play actually commenced, a Dwarf Ranger, a Dwarf Druid and a Dwarf Paladin.
The Druid and the Alchemist died and were resurrected as different races (a human and a half-elf)
My dwarf paladin got smushed (he made it really far without getting hit much due to hit AC) but go critted and it was waaaay ugly.
To be honest i think i was bored with the paladin anyway, buy the time i died. we had:
A half elf witch/druid (former dwarf druid, now multiclassed...lost some wisdom)
A human Alchemist/inquisitor (former dwarf alchemist that was getting bored throwing bombs at everything)
And the dwarf Ranger (the only original left, and a female) That is NOW a Ranger/Barbarian/Oracle.
So my pally was a little boring.
By the way i hate ALL the "flavors" for different kinds of pallys in the APG
Soooo with all the spice and exitingness in the party now with the APG characters running amuck.... (well and the fact that we didnt have a raise dead scroll, or reincarnate for that matter, and we were 500 miles from no where)
I made another character.
Something with SPICE, FLAVOR, Exotic-neSS!
I made a fighter.
I had some really really good rolls, and making him an elf really augmented the rolls well, so im an elf fighter (and an encounter later they had just rescued an elf male from the clutches of a ...never mind no spoilers)
So the rescued me.
Anyway, we had had fun with our dwarves while it lasted.
and the only person who hates being a dwarf in the party is the only one who still IS a dwarf! (too funny).
Just want to say serpents skull has been one of the deadliest adventure paths weve gone through without being only TPK at boss fights...
seems everything has been nastym without taking out the whole party at once.
I don't hate Dwarves but I don't play them because of their movement rate. I tend to enjoy playing mobile characters and a medium creature with a 20ft movement is not a very mobile character. They don't even get the advantage of being harder to hit for small size.
My dislike for them is purely mechanical. I liked playing Dwarves in AD&D. It wasn't so much movement focused.
They make can interesting characters just mechanically weak for what I like to do.
I don't hate Dwarves but I don't play them because of their movement rate. I tend to enjoy playing mobile characters and a medium creature with a 20ft movement is not a very mobile character. They don't even get the advantage of being harder to hit for small size.
My dislike for them is purely mechanical. I liked playing Dwarves in AD&D. It wasn't so much movement focused.
They make can interesting characters just mechanically weak for what I like to do.
so you dont wear medium or heavy armor, ever?
so you dont wear medium or heavy armor, ever?I don't hate Dwarves but I don't play them because of their movement rate. I tend to enjoy playing mobile characters and a medium creature with a 20ft movement is not a very mobile character. They don't even get the advantage of being harder to hit for small size.
My dislike for them is purely mechanical. I liked playing Dwarves in AD&D. It wasn't so much movement focused.
They make can interesting characters just mechanically weak for what I like to do.
I usually avoid the heavier armor because of the movement restrictions. Stick with light or bracers and make good use of a dex bonus.
honestly I had a lot of players who did not like to play "short characters", mostly because they always liked to play tall humans (they were big on the whole being tall thing.
Really though I don't understand why people don't like dwarves, so it has to be the movement thing, people want their 30ft movement in combat.
It shames me to think of choosing character race/class combos purely on a statistical stand point, it hurts the roleplayer in me!
My favorite character of all time was a dwarven monk. He was squished by a Fire Giant.....stupid critting dm
One level of cleric an that dwarf moves at 30 all the time in heavy armor! Or 40 for an hour a level!
Mechanically I love dwarves for characters:
+2 to most saves, full movement in armor (great for clerics, rangers, barbarians, paladins, rogues, cavaliers, alchemists, oracles, inquisitors, etc), bonuses to two of the most important stats in the game, good weapon options for all classes, great sensory options, only penalty to one of the mechanically weakest stats in the game and to speed -- which is easily fixed.
Dwarves are great for any class that isn't fighter, and due to their save throw bonuses they make good fighters too.
Design-wise I hate dwarves:
One race that does everything well. They have the most over all bonuses in the game, with the best abilities of any race in the game combined with the best stats in the game. Hell just make it a cleric and you have the best overall race in the game with the best overall class in the game -- and the race even has it's bonuses in just the right spots for the class!
That's bad design in my opinion.
When it comes to role playing dwarves I generally hate people. But that's their fault not the character's (usually).