It's pretty simple (and I'd like to remark that this is just a suggestion that I'd find nice to have and easy enough to add in the book): why not add to the name of each Target Word and Effect Word a simple syllable (or multisyllable words, for higher level targets/effects) which is, in fact, the Word Of Power that the caster utters at the moment of casting.
For example:
PERSONAL - AH'RYANG
MEDIUM CONE - P'TAH
COLD BLAST (COLD) - ABRATHON
TORTURE (PAIN) - METH
And so on.
Of course anyone could argue that it's easy enough to craft these words for any GM or player, but having an official version of them already written down is of course easier, and not only; it could also be used for countless in-game situations.
For example, the PCs find an ancient writing upon the walls of a tomb, and it contains a name that they are unable to translate or associate. Well, that name happens to be the Words Of Power combination needed to access the secret chamber (using the examples above, say it would be "P'Tah-Meth"; the PCs would need to cast a Medium Cone of Torture upon a designated spot to open the door to the hidden chamber). Whitout an already-written list of such words it would be much harder to build such a puzzle, since the players cannot know that the GM associated a given name to given Words Of Power.
I'm definitely behind this idea. Reminds me of Arx Fatalis to a high degree; in fact, I thought that this was how Words of Power was going to work in the first place.
The problem with this is it can cause some segments of society to descend on your FLGS carrying signs and chanting slogans about how you are converting kids in to Satanists/devil worshipers/witches/homosexuals/whatever else they don't like because you are teaching them REAL MAGIC WORDS.
Yes, we all know that is completely untrue (or the most awesome Pathfinder supplement ever :P ), but we are already players and see the game from the inside. For them, its already something they are negatively predisposed towards and rational arguments about both faith and magic are very difficult to construct and maintain.
You may think I'm over reacting, but where I was growing up they were burning Harry Potter books for a while because the faux Latin in that was going to tempt all us middle schoolers in to selling our souls to Satan for forbidden power. So it is a risk. It's not a certainty that this kind of thing will happen, but it is still a risk.
It also requires the GM and everyone at your table to memorize what all the words mean.
Bob: I cast zo-kath-ra on Jerry's character.
Jerry: CURSE YOUR INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
Bob: Dude, that's a healing spell!
Jerry: Oh.
GM: Don't you have to touch him for that?
Bob: No, the zo-aspect means it works up to 100 feet away.
GM: Oh.
|
It also requires the GM and everyone at your table to memorize what all the words mean.
Bob: I cast zo-kath-ra on Jerry's character.
Jerry: CURSE YOUR INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
Bob: Dude, that's a healing spell!
Jerry: Oh.
GM: Don't you have to touch him for that?
Bob: No, the zo-aspect means it works up to 100 feet away.
GM: Oh.
Well, right now there isn't much ability to say what you're casting easily.
If Bob casts Medium Cone Acid Wave Frost Fingers Spook he's still going to have to explain what it does.
At least with actual words, just from a flavor and RP perspective, we'll have something interesting to do additionally. Frost Fingers can still be called that, but in parentheses you could have "ko'rif" or whatever.
The problem with this is it can cause some segments of society to descend on your FLGS carrying signs and chanting slogans about how you are converting kids in to Satanists/devil worshipers/witches/homosexuals/whatever else they don't like because you are teaching them REAL MAGIC WORDS.
The risk is set with every product. When a broken mind desires to attach her paranoid visions to something, she will.
What if they open the Bestiary and see Devils and Demons? Won't they panick, screaming around that all those strange names, numbers and symbols are codes for black magic and the summoning of Satan?Besides, after the Book Of Vile Darkness was published, they've had their good share of pigfood to feast upon for the next five centuries, in the RPGs area.
Let them be. And rot.
It also requires the GM and everyone at your table to memorize what all the words mean.
No.
As said, they are for flavor purposes, not mechanics, because it's obvious that no one will learn and remember all of them (altough I may name some sick people who would).And if roleplaying need be, I suppose that almost everyone who plays an RPG such as this possesses the amazing ability to take a pencil in his or her mighty hand and write down on the character sheet those few combinations he or she favors most.
|
It also requires the GM and everyone at your table to memorize what all the words mean.
Bob: I cast zo-kath-ra on Jerry's character.
Jerry: CURSE YOUR INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
Bob: Dude, that's a healing spell!
Jerry: Oh.
GM: Don't you have to touch him for that?
Bob: No, the zo-aspect means it works up to 100 feet away.
GM: Oh.Well, right now there isn't much ability to say what you're casting easily.
If Bob casts Medium Cone Acid Wave Frost Fingers Spook he's still going to have to explain what it does.
At least with actual words, just from a flavor and RP perspective, we'll have something interesting to do additionally. Frost Fingers can still be called that, but in parentheses you could have "ko'rif" or whatever.
I kind of think the problem is more with how complex the system is, with a simpler system of words it would be easier to say what the spells do.
"A small Cone of flame and fear."
"A single target force attack"
Ultimately if you make the effects and words more understandable you make the spells easier to describe. Memorizing a bunch of invented words isn't going to help, it will only get in the way.
isn't that what I was suggesting ? hehehe oh well
as i said making the words optional means people can choose not to use them depending on how they wanna RP a wordcaster
|
I'd go for no "magic words" too.
if they put some in place, 50% will ignore them due to complexity, 50% will complain because it latin-like (or whatever-like) and the remaining 50% will be happy...
so instead of wasting time/print space, let's have the ones who likes it invent them.
(for those who wonders, I know I put 3 times 50%... )
Stephane
Again, no one has to memorize them and use them for mechanics or for giving other people headaches.
Did anyone learn the Draconic speech when it was published in the Draconomicon? It's the exact same thing: reference words that any GM and any player can plunder from a common source, if they want to. That's all.
50% will ignore them due to complexity
It's more complex to argue about them than to use them.
instead of wasting time/print space
The space is already there, unoccupied. As per the time, it would take less than taking a coffee, but I surely prefer to hear a sincere "we don't want to spend time inventing those few syllables" rather than excuses on how the thing will cause headaches at the table.
It's easier and better for you to do this yourself than for Paizo to do it for you. Paizo's products need to be as DM-neutral and playgroup-neutral as possible, and it's incredibly easy to just look up a random other language dictionary online and start generating realistic-sounding words and syllables. The advantage of doing it yourself is that ALL of the words will sound like you want them to sound like.
It's pretty simple (and I'd like to remark that this is just a suggestion that I'd find nice to have and easy enough to add in the book): why not add to the name of each Target Word and Effect Word a simple syllable (or multisyllable words, for higher level targets/effects) which is, in fact, the Word Of Power that the caster utters at the moment of casting.
For example:
PERSONAL - AH'RYANG
MEDIUM CONE - P'TAH
COLD BLAST (COLD) - ABRATHON
TORTURE (PAIN) - METH
And so on.
Of course anyone could argue that it's easy enough to craft these words for any GM or player, but having an official version of them already written down is of course easier, and not only; it could also be used for countless in-game situations.
For example, the PCs find an ancient writing upon the walls of a tomb, and it contains a name that they are unable to translate or associate. Well, that name happens to be the Words Of Power combination needed to access the secret chamber (using the examples above, say it would be "P'Tah-Meth"; the PCs would need to cast a Medium Cone of Torture upon a designated spot to open the door to the hidden chamber). Whitout an already-written list of such words it would be much harder to build such a puzzle, since the players cannot know that the GM associated a given name to given Words Of Power.
Your right, you should right them up and post them on the homebrew section. that way we can all do our own instead of being limited to what the book calls it.
|
It also requires the GM and everyone at your table to memorize what all the words mean.
Bob: I cast zo-kath-ra on Jerry's character.
Jerry: CURSE YOUR INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
Bob: Dude, that's a healing spell!
Jerry: Oh.
GM: Don't you have to touch him for that?
Bob: No, the zo-aspect means it works up to 100 feet away.
GM: Oh.
roflolololololol
It also requires the GM and everyone at your table to memorize what all the words mean.
Bob: I cast zo-kath-ra on Jerry's character.
Jerry: CURSE YOUR INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
Bob: Dude, that's a healing spell!
Jerry: Oh.
GM: Don't you have to touch him for that?
Bob: No, the zo-aspect means it works up to 100 feet away.
GM: Oh.
hehehe that acutally might turn Jerry into a firestaff ;)
It also requires the GM and everyone at your table to memorize what all the words mean.
Bob: I cast zo-kath-ra on Jerry's character.
Jerry: CURSE YOUR INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
Bob: Dude, that's a healing spell!
Jerry: Oh.
GM: Don't you have to touch him for that?
Bob: No, the zo-aspect means it works up to 100 feet away.
GM: Oh.
While I agree I could also see this happening like so:
Bob: My monk uses shoggoth-viper-touch on Jerry's character.
Jerry: CURSE YOUR INEVITABLE BETRAYAL!!!
Bob: Dude, its a healing ability from the Therassic monk archetype.
Jerry: Oh.
Bob: but it causes you 2 wisdom damage...
There are always new game terms to learn especially from supplement books. Granted, its good design to craft those terms in a way that makes them easy to digest, but I think some people (myself included) are being soured by the WoP currently include words that are metagame concepts such as Cones, Bursts, etc, and that IMHO detracts from the ambiance of being a learned scholar of words that bend the fabric of reality.
Changeling: the Dreaming has a similar setup, somewhat, where you had traits to represent targets and traits to represent effects, but in their usual panache had target names like "true friend", "dire enemy", "manifold chimera".
Is there a happy medium somewhere?
I'd like them to be actual words, but I'd prefer to not have those words defined the same way as I like wizards to have Somatic components without specifying that they're doing an arcane version of the teapot dance crossed with the macarena.
|
|
The big problem with 'actual words' is it tosses out some of the foundations of the current system. The idea here is the have a set of powers you can easily use as an alternate to the existing spell system.
Limiting it to "Words" means silent spell, and still are pointless. Casting in armor isn't a problem because somatic components are gone...
Ultimately a 'word caster' would have to be a whole new class with it's own set of inherent limiters and issues.
The big problem with 'actual words' is it tosses out some of the foundations of the current system. The idea here is the have a set of powers you can easily use as an alternate to the existing spell system.
Limiting it to "Words" means silent spell, and still are pointless. Casting in armor isn't a problem because somatic components are gone...
Ultimately a 'word caster' would have to be a whole new class with it's own set of inherent limiters and issues.
What this means is that if you Humpty-Dumpty the definition of "Words of Power" to encompass everything from arcane jam recipes to tantric sex, then the only meaning of "word of power" in the game that would match the folkloric underpinnings would be the existing sorcerer/wizard spells Power Word Blind, Power Word Kill, & Power Word Stun which state as part of their descriptive text "You utter a single word of power that...."
In other words, it would be like the confusion with "enchantment" being both a school of magic involving charm/dominate and also a process whereby an object becomes magical. Only worse.
I'm not saying that you can't use the new Words of Power game mechanics to model all sorts of variant casting practices, just that the iconic word caster should still be some guy pronouncing arcane syllables, the same way your classic wizard is a dude with book that he's reading magic out of. Yes, you can come up with alternate spellbooks that are everything from Eberron dragonshards to psychic crystals (which are just dragonshards with the serial numbers filed off), but it's much better if the iconic wizard is still the guy with the book and the white beard.
If Words of Power aren't going to be solely Words of Power, they should at least be Words of Power except when they're not.
|
|
or simply that the phrase "Words of Power" is a metaphore, not to be read literally (Which is the way the system is actually build).
Exactly... keep in mind NONE OF US SPEAK COMMON, ELVEN OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE IN PATHFINDER.
So naturally the words are meant to be given in game names.
Each player makes his own words, and uses them or doesn't at his option.
|
|
or simply that the phrase "Words of Power" is a metaphore, not to be read literally (Which is the way the system is actually build).Exactly... keep in mind NONE OF US SPEAK COMMON, ELVEN OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE IN PATHFINDER.
So naturally the words are meant to be given in game names.
Each player makes his own words, and uses them or doesn't at his option.
Well Kevin isn't actually suggesting they provide the words, only that the mechanic be words, essentially ditching somatic and material components.
Well Kevin isn't actually suggesting they provide the words, only that the mechanic be words, essentially ditching somatic and material components.or simply that the phrase "Words of Power" is a metaphore, not to be read literally (Which is the way the system is actually build).Exactly... keep in mind NONE OF US SPEAK COMMON, ELVEN OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE IN PATHFINDER.
So naturally the words are meant to be given in game names.
Each player makes his own words, and uses them or doesn't at his option.
Exactly.
Power Words Blind, Stun & Kill all have only Verbal components. It's been that way since 1st edition.
If you're going to have anything else called "Words of Power," it's only reasonable to assume that it follows the same model.
Exactly.Power Words Blind, Stun & Kill all have only Verbal components. It's been that way since 1st edition.
If you're going to have anything else called "Words of Power," it's only reasonable to assume that it follows the same model.
Just wanted to add my support. If it si called "Words of Power" in a game with the Power Word spells, I expect it to be similar. If it is not going to be similar, please call it something more descriptive, like "Assembled Spells" or "Fundamentals of Magic" (101). I, too, like my mechanics and "fluff" to be in sync.
If you're going to have anything else called "Words of Power," it's only reasonable to assume that it follows the same model.If you limit yourself to literal minded thought yes.
I'm dealing with thousands of years of myth, folklore, legend and literature. There's more than enough abstract thought there that we don't need to Humpty-Dumpty in new meanings to words that are already crammed to bursting with them.
I mean, here, look at the essay on Words of Power in folklore I linked to earlier.
If you don't have time to read it or parse Victorian academia, here's the nutshell: Words of Power include Creative Words ("Fiat Lux!"), Mantrams or ritual phrases ("Om Mani padme hum"), Passwords ("Open, Sesame!"), Spells and Amulets ("Tetragrammaton" inscribed in a conjuring circle), and Cure Charms (saying "Gesundheit" or "Bless you" when someone sneezes to keep the little imps from grabbing their soul when it flies out of their nose).
Yes, there are Cure Charms and apotropaic rituals that aren't Words of Power--throwing a pinch of spilled salt over your left shoulder, knocking on wood, etc.--but just because something has power doesn't make it a word.
There are also True Names ("Rumplestiltskin!") which give you power over various creatures and are related to Words of Power.
With all that folklore to juggle, applying the phrase "Words of Power" to a set of game mechanics that doesn't mesh just adds a huge layer of confusion. I understand that "Modular Spell Widgets" doesn't sound as sexy, but there are words that mean "Modular Spell Widgets" that you don't have to make up. "Charms" is one of them.
From a folklore and linguistic perspective, a magic word can be a charm. A magic gesture can be a charm. A magic amulet can be a charm. Yes, there would be some confusion with enchantment/charm spells, but that's just because love charms are so popular that the word gets applied to that as well.
If the "Words of Power" system encompasses Somatic and Material components as well as Verbal, it would be far less confusing to call them all "Charms" instead, especially since stringing charms together on a bracelet is a common image and an easily understandable metaphor for spell widgets.
I'm dealing with thousands of years of myth, folklore, legend and literature. There's more than enough abstract thought there that we don't need to Humpty-Dumpty in new meanings to words that are already crammed to bursting with them.
Like I said, this argument was already lost when it was about the Oracle, way back before we even had previews for the APG. Paizo isn't looking for naming input, and they won't change the name. Accept it (or don't) and move on.
|
|
When they said Oracle I got a mental composite of all the oracles in various stories I've read, Paizo's class didn't match that very well IMO so I get why people griped.
When they said witch I have a mental composite of tons and tons of different bogus witch mythologies and the whole Wicca angle. I think they did a decent job with the witch and I had something to measure it against.
When they say "Words of Power" I see three common words used in a phrase. Wikipedia has nothing on of significance on it, google turns up a few hundred articles on topics that go all over the board.
I have no preconceived notions of that Words of Power should be so I cannot be disappointed that they didn't meet my preconceived notion. Looking at Google and Wikipedia I suspect the vast majority of people feel that way.
You obviously have some preconceived notion about it and have passed judgement based on those concepts. I can't argue with your preconceived concept so I won't.
I will say that you are destined to be disappointed. It's too late for Paizo to change the name and game mechanics don't work with your concept of pure vocal spells.
When they said Oracle I got a mental composite of all the oracles in various stories I've read, Paizo's class didn't match that very well IMO so I get why people griped.
When they said witch I have a mental composite of tons and tons of different bogus witch mythologies and the whole Wicca angle. I think they did a decent job with the witch and I had something to measure it against.
When they say "Words of Power" I see three common words used in a phrase. Wikipedia has nothing on of significance on it, google turns up a few hundred articles on topics that go all over the board.
I have no preconceived notions of that Words of Power should be so I cannot be disappointed that they didn't meet my preconceived notion. Looking at Google and Wikipedia I suspect the vast majority of people feel that way.
You obviously have some preconceived notion about it and have passed judgement based on those concepts. I can't argue with your preconceived concept so I won't.
I will say that you are destined to be disappointed. It's too late for Paizo to change the name and game mechanics don't work with your concept of pure vocal spells.
If you want literary references and folklore, you're looking in the wrong place with Wikipedia and you're casting your net too broadly with Google. Check TvTropes.org instead.
Words of Power are listed there
Just because you haven't read/watched/heard something before doesn't mean other people haven't.
If you don't want to read Victorian academia in the first article I cited, at least look at a popular modern media resource.
I liked it in the Ultima series, so I wouldn't mind it here. After enough exposure it was easier to type these things in Ultima 6 rather than flip through the spellbook to the spell you want each time.
Definitely going to incorporate something like that in my game.
|
|
Just because you haven't read/watched/heard something before doesn't mean other people haven't.
There are a lot of general rather vague things but no specific folklore here. Nothing like the witch or the oracle, just a vague concept which can (and was) be interpreted broadly.
If you don't want to read Victorian academia in the first article I cited, at least look at a popular modern media resource.
From what I recall "By the Power of Greyskull!"... pretty much requires a sword and a particular stance (though I'm not a He Man expert by any means so I might be wrong).
Just because you haven't read/watched/heard something before doesn't mean other people haven't.There are a lot of general rather vague things but no specific folklore here. Nothing like the witch or the oracle, just a vague concept which can (and was) be interpreted broadly.
Uh, hello, here's the link to the specific folklore again.
If you don't want to read Victorian academia in the first article I cited, at least look at a popular modern media resource.From what I recall "By the Power of Greyskull!"... pretty much requires a sword and a particular stance (though I'm not a He Man expert by any means so I might be wrong).
Follow the link at TvTropes.org. It explains the trope in pretty good detail.
Or, if you want it in Pathfinder terms, He-Man's sword is a wondrous item that has "By the Power of Greyskull!" as its command word at which point it casts Transformation on the wielder.
Command words are a standard subset of Words of Power.
|
|
Command words are a standard subset of Words of Power.
Your link talks about As are magical substances... words, gestures, magical substances...
How does any of this contradict the words of power? They specifically mention the words being used in conjunction with "Phlebotinum" or magical substances. No one is talking about omitting any of this.
The Draconomicon was as much core as Ultimate Magic will be, and same goes for how much both of them are tied to any specific campaign setting. Yet it included a small dictionary of Draconic tongue. Any person could have created one of her own, so it really wasn't necessary. And I've never heard anyone complaining for that thing being there. Rather, it's pretty good to have a basic common source to pick from (seems like many didn't read the example in the first message). Any GM can create any thing, but his players will never know the details until he uncovers all the cards. With a book acting as a common source the thing is quite different. And for the words to be latin-sounding, japanese-sounding or smurf-sounding would be of little concern, as I see it, exactly like it would make no difference to call a longsword "straight sword". What matters is that it is or isn't there (well, all right... smurf-sounding would be a little too far).
As for the space, again, there would be no need for sidebars or a whole dedicated page, since there's plenty of unused space in the very same rows where the names of target/effect words are written.
Command words are a standard subset of Words of Power.Your link talks about As are magical substances... words, gestures, magical substances...
How does any of this contradict the words of power? They specifically mention the words being used in conjunction with "Phlebotinum" or magical substances. No one is talking about omitting any of this.
It's a matter of flavor and philosophy. I'll have to read the final text to see how I feel about it, but to give an example from the Victorian essay, while holy water may be empowered by words prayed over it, and also be used in combination with other words for various effects, saying that it's a Word of Power is like a priest stepping out on stage, holding up a flask of holy water, and saying, "Behold the Word of God!"
Um, no. That's a flask of holy water. It may be filled with the "Power of God," it may be holy or blessed, but it isn't a word.
I would be very interested to see "words of power" migrate to a sort "spell component" system, where each of the 3 usual spell components is some kind of target, effect, and modifying word. This could dovetail quite nicely with the current system, with certain spells only being 2 components, ore some (like the powerword spells) being only one.
|
|
I would be very interested to see "words of power" migrate to a sort "spell component" system, where each of the 3 usual spell components is some kind of target, effect, and modifying word. This could dovetail quite nicely with the current system, with certain spells only being 2 components, ore some (like the powerword spells) being only one.
Seems to me the words are already plenty complex without this. I'm hoping for a move towards more simple.
I do like the idea but it does make for one more thing to track.